| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Would you like the idea of such a subforum? |
| Yes |
|
75% |
[ 53 ] |
| No |
|
15% |
[ 11 ] |
| I don't care |
|
8% |
[ 6 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 70 |
|
| Author |
Message |
Earthwings
Bodhisattva
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 7753
Location: Germany
|
 Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:59 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| cokehabit wrote: | | Headrush wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | this forum would be less "i hate gentoo because..." but it would be more like "i'd like to see this from gentoo - can anyone help" and "devs, please can this be done different?" |
So would these these threads be moderated so they stay in that vain? (We know how fast threads can deviate) |
They would be extremely moderated. It is not general gentoo chat and it is not rubbish, it is purely for making Gentoo better for the users and developers by giving them a place to communicate and chat. Any off topic posts or threads will be binned. |
Extremely moderated? At least not by me. There's no sane, fair way in general to decide whether a post is off topic or not, as well it's mostly not possible to decide at which point a thread goes off topic. Therefore it would be moderated similarly to Gentoo Chat and the other forums.
That said and looking at the posts so far, I agree with | slonocode wrote: | | It seems all these posts are already in the same place called Gentoo Chat. |
_________________
KDE |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Earthwings wrote: | | Extremely moderated? At least not by me. There's no sane, fair way in general to decide whether a post is off topic or not, as well it's mostly not possible to decide at which point a thread goes off topic. Therefore it would be moderated similarly to Gentoo Chat and the other forums. |
Thats up to you but we dont want it ending up like Gentoo Chat
| Earthwings wrote: | That said and looking at the posts so far, I agree with | slonocode wrote: | | It seems all these posts are already in the same place called Gentoo Chat. |
|
Then neither of you understand what the purpose of the forum is for, go and read some before commenting next time.
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yabbadabbadont
Advocate
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 4791
Location: 2 exits past crazy
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wow. Are you trying to be the first user rep who gets a temp ban? 
_________________
| Bones McCracker wrote: | | On the other hand, regex is popular with the ladies. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| yabbadabbadont wrote: | | Wow. Are you trying to be the first user rep who gets a temp ban? |
i answer to and try to look after the interests of the users and i call an orange an orange.
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yabbadabbadont
Advocate
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 4791
Location: 2 exits past crazy
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cokehabit wrote: | | yabbadabbadont wrote: | | Wow. Are you trying to be the first user rep who gets a temp ban? |
i answer to and try to look after the interests of the users and i call an orange an orange. |
To quote "Sam and Max", "Sicc'em up little buddy." 
_________________
| Bones McCracker wrote: | | On the other hand, regex is popular with the ladies. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
I agree with cokehabit (:choke:! ) as while all these posts may be in gentoo chat, there's an awful lot of other stuff there too.
| Quote: | | Opinions, ideas and thoughts about Gentoo. Anything and everything about Gentoo except support. |
An `improve gentoo' (sub)forum has more focus, and will be easier to administer (ie if it's not specifically about improving gentoo, a thread can be moved to gentoo chat.)
@loki: when (later) consulting the devs I think IRC is not the way to go- the mailing list (which you mention) is better as then other users can be referred to/ check out a discussion there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slonocode
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 273
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| steveL wrote: | I agree with cokehabit (:choke:!) as while all these posts may be in gentoo chat, there's an awful lot of other stuff there too.
| Quote: | | Opinions, ideas and thoughts about Gentoo. Anything and everything about Gentoo except support. |
An `improve gentoo' (sub)forum has more focus, and will be easier to administer (ie if it's not specifically about improving gentoo, a thread can be moved to gentoo chat.)
@loki: when (later) consulting the devs I think IRC is not the way to go- the mailing list (which you mention) is better as then other users can be referred to/ check out a discussion there. |
I guess the users can only hope that you are the one to speak with devs about coming to said forum. I wonder if the devs have ever spoken to a wanker and how the respond to it. You know an orange is an orange. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
runningwithscissors
Guru
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: the third world
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
Developers don't have any interest (or even time, sometimes) for people who request feature wishlists. Which is what this new forum will turn into, I think. Maybe the odd, really insightful suggestion will be picked up, but not much else. User reps to lobby it or not.
I think what needs to be made clear (in the forum description, perhaps) is that any issues that users need to take up with developers have to stay within the realms of possible and sane implementation or resolution.
For example,
I think certain features provided by the gentoolkit that are indispensable to users need to be included with a portage install.
vs.
I want a full alternative binary repository because I hate compiling stuff but still want to be a 1337 gentoo user.
I couldn't care less about either of those issues, but just a comparison between a sane and an insane suggestion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Earthwings
Bodhisattva
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 7753
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cokehabit wrote: | | Earthwings wrote: | | Extremely moderated? At least not by me. There's no sane, fair way in general to decide whether a post is off topic or not, as well it's mostly not possible to decide at which point a thread goes off topic. Therefore it would be moderated similarly to Gentoo Chat and the other forums. |
Thats up to you but we dont want it ending up like Gentoo Chat
| Earthwings wrote: | That said and looking at the posts so far, I agree with | slonocode wrote: | | It seems all these posts are already in the same place called Gentoo Chat. |
|
Then neither of you understand what the purpose of the forum is for, go and read some before commenting next time. |
Hahaha, for once I agree with ciaranm about you
_________________
KDE |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
loki99
Advocate
Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Earthwings wrote: | | Extremely moderated? At least not by me. There's no sane, fair way in general to decide whether a post is off topic or not, as well it's mostly not possible to decide at which point a thread goes off topic. Therefore it would be moderated similarly to Gentoo Chat and the other forums. |
Which would be fine I guess. Perhaps we could ask the forum mods to move parts of a thread or the whole thread to Gentoo chat if it fails to meet the requirements for the new forum?
| Earthwings wrote: | That said and looking at the posts so far, I agree with | slonocode wrote: | | It seems all these posts are already in the same place called Gentoo Chat. |
|
The difference would be that it has a focus on working out improvements or collecting user opinions on specific topics, which is what we were asked for when userrel started this new project. It would also be a sign to the users that the devs do care about what users think! You know, almost any little something dealing with costumers/users has a special and visible little box where you can drop suggestions or complains. Why doesn't Gentoo?
We have been asked to improve the communication between the user and the dev community. So we thought of of a couple of ways to get the info the devs want while at the same time giving the users a place that is dedicated to make suggestion and rant a little. The new forum should be one of them.
Don't you think that the new forum would be more inviting to think about changes and discuss them in a constructive manner? People wouldn't be shut up that easily with nonsense remarks and we could ask users more specifically to keep things on the constructive side. Another difference would be that we the userreps would foster those threads and keep an eye on them. At least I would also try to bring in infos I could gather from the devs community and would ask the responsible devs to take a look at just that one thread that concerns his/her field. This would help to eliminate senseless request but could still provide the user with a feeling of being heard and respected in the community.
And isn't that what we all should try to achieve? To get more people involved so the community grows stronger? IMO it would also help to get users and devs closer together and improve their understanding of each other, which is desperately needed. And it would be a service for the devs too, if we manage to filter the useless request before they hit bugzilla and the user gets a snappy reply for his uberstupid request. Only the more valueable suggestions would make it to the devs as a prosposal that has been thought out on our wiki page.
If the whole thing doesn't work out? Fine, you can delete it again in a couple of months. No harm done. But I see no point in not trying at least! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| slonocode wrote: | | I guess the users can only hope that you are the one to speak with devs about coming to said forum. I wonder if the devs have ever spoken to a wanker and how the respond to it. You know an orange is an orange. |
we aren't the people to just talk to the devs, the idea is to get the devs and the users talking more. We shouldn't really need userreps.
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Earthwings wrote: | | Hahaha, for once I agree with ciaranm about you |
heh, bad minds think alike (it is a play on a phrase in english)
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have to ask... Is there a reason for the negativity surrounding this? Setting it up is about 3 clicks and 15 seconds work, you dont even need to moderate it, you can let the userreps do that and just leave me out of it if you want to. I say let kopp, loki99 and Q-collective moderate it.
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slonocode
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 273
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cokehabit wrote: | | slonocode wrote: | | I guess the users can only hope that you are the one to speak with devs about coming to said forum. I wonder if the devs have ever spoken to a wanker and how the respond to it. You know an orange is an orange. |
we aren't the people to just talk to the devs, the idea is to get the devs and the users talking more. We shouldn't really need userreps. |
My post didn't say that you were "the people to just talk to the devs". The userreps will be initiating the talking between the devs and users. I just hope that the more eloquent userreps will do the initiating. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| slonocode wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | slonocode wrote: | | I guess the users can only hope that you are the one to speak with devs about coming to said forum. I wonder if the devs have ever spoken to a wanker and how the respond to it. You know an orange is an orange. |
we aren't the people to just talk to the devs, the idea is to get the devs and the users talking more. We shouldn't really need userreps. |
My post didn't say that you were "the people to just talk to the devs". The userreps will be initiating the talking between the devs and users. I just hope that the more eloquent userreps will do the initiating. |
jealousy is a terrible thing
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slonocode
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 273
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cokehabit wrote: | | slonocode wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | slonocode wrote: | | I guess the users can only hope that you are the one to speak with devs about coming to said forum. I wonder if the devs have ever spoken to a wanker and how the respond to it. You know an orange is an orange. |
we aren't the people to just talk to the devs, the idea is to get the devs and the users talking more. We shouldn't really need userreps. |
My post didn't say that you were "the people to just talk to the devs". The userreps will be initiating the talking between the devs and users. I just hope that the more eloquent userreps will do the initiating. |
jealousy is a terrible thing |
How did jealousy become relevant? Do you talk to devs this way? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slonocode
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 273
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| loki99 wrote: |
| Earthwings wrote: | That said and looking at the posts so far, I agree with | slonocode wrote: | | It seems all these posts are already in the same place called Gentoo Chat. |
|
The difference would be that it has a focus on working out improvements or collecting user opinions on specific topics, which is what we were asked for when userrel started this new project. It would also be a sign to the users that the devs do care about what users think! You know, almost any little something dealing with costumers/users has a special and visible little box where you can drop suggestions or complains. Why doesn't Gentoo?
We have been asked to improve the communication between the user and the dev community. So we thought of of a couple of ways to get the info the devs want while at the same time giving the users a place that is dedicated to make suggestion and rant a little. The new forum should be one of them.
Don't you think that the new forum would be more inviting to think about changes and discuss them in a constructive manner? People wouldn't be shut up that easily with nonsense remarks and we could ask users more specifically to keep things on the constructive side. Another difference would be that we the userreps would foster those threads and keep an eye on them. At least I would also try to bring in infos I could gather from the devs community and would ask the responsible devs to take a look at just that one thread that concerns his/her field. This would help to eliminate senseless request but could still provide the user with a feeling of being heard and respected in the community.
And isn't that what we all should try to achieve? To get more people involved so the community grows stronger? IMO it would also help to get users and devs closer together and improve their understanding of each other, which is desperately needed. And it would be a service for the devs too, if we manage to filter the useless request before they hit bugzilla and the user gets a snappy reply for his uberstupid request. Only the more valueable suggestions would make it to the devs as a prosposal that has been thought out on our wiki page.
If the whole thing doesn't work out? Fine, you can delete it again in a couple of months. No harm done. But I see no point in not trying at least! |
Loki if this is a sincere effort to enhance communication between devs and users then I'm all for it. If it's corporate speak for creating a moderated quarantine for criticisms then I'm not for it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| slonocode wrote: | | How did jealousy become relevant? Do you talk to devs this way? |
if you want me to, i am your representative remember
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slonocode
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 273
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cokehabit wrote: | | slonocode wrote: | | How did jealousy become relevant? Do you talk to devs this way? |
if you want me to, i am your representative remember |
Jealousy relevance? Are you implying you will speak however I want you to? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| slonocode wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | slonocode wrote: | | How did jealousy become relevant? Do you talk to devs this way? |
if you want me to, i am your representative remember |
Jealousy relevance? |
yeah i'm sorry that you feel the need to be jealous
| slonocode wrote: | | Are you implying you will speak however I want you to? |
if it is relevant and beneficial to Gentoo i will speak on whatever subject you wish
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
loki99
Advocate
Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| slonocode wrote: | | Loki if this is a sincere effort to enhance communication between devs and users then I'm all for it. If it's corporate speak for creating a moderated quarantine for criticisms then I'm not for it. |
Improving communication is what it is all about. It is just too obvious that users and devs have tons of missunderstanding which lead to flames unnecessary troubles within the community. And instead of drawing new people into getting involved, people feel rejected by the devs quite often. It seems to me that there really are two different cultures and I would like to help both sides to get to know each other better.
After all that was my main reason to apply as an userrep. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
loki hits the nail on the head:
| loki99 wrote: | Perhaps we could ask the forum mods to move parts of a thread or the whole thread to Gentoo chat if it fails to meet the requirements for the new forum?
The difference would be that it has a focus on working out improvements or collecting user opinions on specific topics, which is what we were asked for when userrel started this new project. It would also be a sign to the users that the devs do care about what users think! You know, almost any little something dealing with costumers/users has a special and visible little box where you can drop suggestions or complains. Why doesn't Gentoo?
We have been asked to improve the communication between the user and the dev community. So we thought of of a couple of ways to get the info the devs want while at the same time giving the users a place that is dedicated to make suggestion and rant a little. The new forum should be one of them.
Don't you think that the new forum would be more inviting to think about changes and discuss them in a constructive manner? People wouldn't be shut up that easily with nonsense remarks and we could ask users more specifically to keep things on the constructive side. Another difference would be that we the userreps would foster those threads and keep an eye on them. At least I would also try to bring in infos I could gather from the devs community and would ask the responsible devs to take a look at just that one thread that concerns his/her field. This would help to eliminate senseless request but could still provide the user with a feeling of being heard and respected in the community.
And isn't that what we all should try to achieve? To get more people involved so the community grows stronger? IMO it would also help to get users and devs closer together and improve their understanding of each other, which is desperately needed. And it would be a service for the devs too, if we manage to filter the useless request before they hit bugzilla and the user gets a snappy reply for his uberstupid request. Only the more valueable suggestions would make it to the devs as a prosposal that has been thought out on our wiki page. |
I don't know any of you apart from what I read on here, but cokehabit SHUT UP! You're just baiting people unecessarily, and frankly it's just rude, and a waste of everyone's time and constructive energy.
Having said that I agree with your points, in this and other threads. I just wish you'd stop acting like a cokehead
@loki: I dunno if some of the devs do care what users think, but the smart ones know that without users the best code in the world is just jerking off. And I seem to have seen another poll recently (forget which one) which they did take on board- I'd hope to see a lot more polls after a suitable discussion, to get some sort of consensus. And yeah, that would mean irrational requests would get filtered out. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rokstar83
Guru
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
Posts: 423
Location: MD
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I'm all for this idea, so long as it doesn't end up creating more of a rift between devs and users. I like the idea of give it a try and then removing it if it becomes too difficult to keep relevent or causes more problems than it solves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| rokstar83 wrote: | | I'm all for this idea, so long as it doesn't end up creating more of a rift between devs and users. I like the idea of give it a try and then removing it if it becomes too difficult to keep relevent or causes more problems than it solves. |
IMO it would only help to bridge the gap; that's why the userreps want to do it. As you say it can always be removed.
I don't anticipate seeing many devs on it; that's not what it's about from what I've read. It's more about getting a consensus from the users.
Why not make the userreps the moderators of that forum? (TBH I think some of them eg the 3 cokehabit mentioned should be moderators across the board, but let's not get into a row.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tabanus
l33t
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 638
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| steveL wrote: | | (TBH I think some of them eg the 3 cokehabit mentioned should be moderators across the board, but let's not get into a row.) |
Then cokehabit would have to ban himself
_________________
Things you might say if you never took Physics: "I'm overweight even though I don't overeat." - Neil deGrasse Tyson |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Gentoo Chat
