2006.1 rushed out the door?

Message

Xornot · Post by **Xornot** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:55 pm

I don't know if the developers read this, so I'm not sure if this is the right place to say it, but I feel like 2006.1 just wasn't ready to go out yet and am disturbed from the gentoo news that it was essentially rushed to meet their six month deadline.

I've never had any problems before with gentoo, have always been able to just follow the docs and directions closely and get things working, but both the gui and command line installer crashed fatally on me when installing extras. It's not clear to me from the docs whether I can use the 2006.1 live CD to install the old fashioned way. Worse IMHO is that now the gentoo docs seem to be all out of sync with each other and it's very difficult to tell which of the many handbooks still apply to 2006.1. I tried to recomplile my kernel according the handbook that *is* still linked from the 2006.1 docs and it was disastrous. I don't see any proper explanations of the changes in kernel options and installation. At any rate, whatever comes off the live CD is way different from what the kernel manual tells me to do.

I'm not just trying to vent here. I really like Gentoo and would like to see it continue, but I think it's important for the powers that be to realize that shipping before the docs are synced up and everything is sufficiently tested will really turn a lot of people off of gentoo. For myself, I dunno whether to try and sort my way through the doc mess till I figure out what 2006.1 did/is doing, revert to 2006.0 the manual way, or try another distro!

Hope this makes someone think,
Iain

nixnut · Post by **nixnut** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:24 pm

Moved from Installing Gentoo to Gentoo Chat.
Not a support request, so moved here.

Kensai · Post by **Kensai** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:31 pm

I have to agree, about the installer though it is obvious since it sucks period. For the ones that will go nuts because of this statement, the installer can get better so I'm not saying it wil always suck. (Maybe will be fixed in the next 10 years

)

But about minimal cd, it is a rushed out release and thats true, I was a pre 2006.1 tester, and they never paid much atention to the minimal cd so no wonders. Still I see some strange problems in your post which might not be 2006.1 fault, but the part behind the keyboard.

Yet search for the 2006.1 kerneloftruth enhaced minimal cd it is much better with newer packages. Or you can always use jackass minimal livecd

Have fun!, I'll be waiting the flame of the usual Gentoo forums individuals who like to diss at me.

Xornot · Post by **Xornot** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:35 pm

It's not a problem with Gentoo per se, which is very well designed. I still think portage kicks ass. But it's a BIG problem with project management. And to their credit, their is nothing easy about software project management, even when there are bags of money. Releasing something that will frustrate people is a really bad idea when there are a dozen competitors also offering at the same low price point ....

yabbadabbadont · Post by **yabbadabbadont** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:02 pm

I actually like using the live cd for installing using the manual stage3 method. I have a nice browser for viewing docs or surfing the web. I also just open up a gnome-terminal with two or three tabs to handle the actual install. I used to do the same thing from a knoppix cd. Actually, I'll probably download a newer knoppix cd (or dvd) to use for future installs as the sound doesn't work on the gentoo one and I like to listen to music while installing... Just remember that, as long as you have access to either the console or a terminal, you can always follow the instructions for a manual stage? install.

Sunnz · Post by **Sunnz** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:10 pm

Umm I used the minmal CD for AMD64 to install this system I am using now... haven't had any problems at all... however I have heard about how the GUI installer randomly deletes all parition tables, is that the Live CD one? Because it is really really bad for those who may be dual booting and having made any backups!!

syg00 · Post by **syg00** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:35 pm

At the behest of someone at work that wanted a "minimal" VMWARE client, we tried the 2006.1 GUI installer.
Took 5 maybe 6 goes to get a system up and running.
I haven't done that many builds in all the time I've used Gentoo.

I didn't like the concept, I don't like the final product.
Even the "text" installer tried to trash our partitions.
Things like this will drive (even more) people away from Gentoo.

jamesdick628 · Post by **jamesdick628** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:38 pm

syg00 wrote:Things like this will drive (even more) people away from Gentoo.

It's kind of ironic that a graphical installer was created to draw more people to gentoo, yet it's doing the opposite.

I, for one, have never used the installer and never plan to. I usually go for a knoppix live cd and do a manual install. I've never had a problem with the manual installation technique.

runningwithscissors · Post by **runningwithscissors** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:15 pm

*shrug* it didn't look rushed to me. X didn't start on my x86 CD, but the curses installer worked perfectly (although I cheated and created the partitions and filesystems manually beforehand).

numerodix · Post by **numerodix** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:18 pm

The partitioner is dicey yes, but if you see that why not just use [c]fdisk in a terminal to partition and then use the installer the rest of the way? I love the livecd for offering X and common applications (like gaim) to use while installing. I'm used to the old fashion command line install, so I never really tested the graphical installer past the point where it wouldn't recognize my partitions.

Anyway, just because there is a gtk installer doesn't mean you have to use it. I really don't see why Knoppix is better than the gentoo livecd, it was hot once, but now it just looks very outdated.

sonicbhoc · Post by **sonicbhoc** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:28 pm

I use a PCLinuxOS live CD to build Gentoo. That way I have everything I'd need to use while Gentoo is building.

Also, instead of Knoppix, ever tried Kanotix?

Sunnz · Post by **Sunnz** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:07 pm

numerodix wrote:just because there is a gtk installer doesn't mean you have to use it.

New users who come from Fedora, Ubuntu, or even Windows will use it first thing, since they are used to have a GUI thing and though it would be easy. Further more Gentoo users would try it just for the heck of it, and if they don't have backups...

The thing is, if something is release in this fasion, it should be quite stable and shouldn't do something as bad as deleting partition tables... just because you can still do it the old way doesn't mean this isn't a problem, the gtk installer could have been held back in the first place!!

Clete2 · Post by **Clete2** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:17 pm

There is a notice on the installer that it is still in beta, but I doubt that will deter many new Gentooers from using it. Some people will turn away from Gentoo due to it. I tried it, but my kernel compile failed (I specified my own .config.. maybe that's why), so I just did it the old-fashioned way.

I think that it is a good idea and the developers are doing the right thing by marking it beta. I'm sure it will improve once it is out of its beta stages.

Personally, all new installs that I do from now on are going to do will be VIA terminal, which is what I am most familiar with.

runningwithscissors · Post by **runningwithscissors** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:25 pm

Clete2 wrote:Personally, all new installs that I do from now on are going to do will be VIA terminal, which is what I am most familiar with.

I don't mind installers, actually. But I've always seen Gentoo as a learner's distribution. New users must always be encouraged to give the manual install a try. A manual stage 3 can be done in a couple of hours, and helps a lot in understanding a few things about Linux.

loki99 · Post by **loki99** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:00 pm

Clete2 wrote:There is a notice on the installer that it is still in beta...

I never tried the GLI but I have been told by releng, that it is not beta, but it has a warning before the install that you should only use it "when you know what you are doing."

And they added that you should have backups anyhow when installing any OS.

yabbadabbadont · Post by **yabbadabbadont** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:09 pm

loki99 wrote:
Clete2 wrote:There is a notice on the installer that it is still in beta...
I never tried the GLI but I have been told by releng, that it is not beta, but it has a warning before the install that you should only use it "when you know what you are doing."

And they added that you should have backups anyhow when installing any OS.

<sarcasm>Yeah, it's not in beta, it's in alpha...</sarcasm>

Kensai · Post by **Kensai** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:33 pm

<serious>It's in pre-alpha stage</serious> Too many problems, for too many people. Makes it an experimental feature.

numerodix · Post by **numerodix** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:38 pm

Sunnz wrote:The thing is, if something is release in this fasion, it should be quite stable and shouldn't do something as bad as deleting partition tables... just because you can still do it the old way doesn't mean this isn't a problem, the gtk installer could have been held back in the first place!!

That's perfectly fair. Nevertheless, even with no gtk installer, I still would want a fully functional livecd with X, gnome and all that.

tylerwylie · Post by **tylerwylie** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:56 pm

People use that thing?

Sunnz · Post by **Sunnz** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:50 am

numerodix wrote:
Sunnz wrote:The thing is, if something is release in this fasion, it should be quite stable and shouldn't do something as bad as deleting partition tables... just because you can still do it the old way doesn't mean this isn't a problem, the gtk installer could have been held back in the first place!!
That's perfectly fair. Nevertheless, even with no gtk installer, I still would want a fully functional livecd with X, gnome and all that.

Agrees, all there things are handy... but it is not necessary - I don't mind having it; but I don't care if they don't come with the CD neither.

padoor · Post by **padoor** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:08 am

i just downloaded the stage3-i686 - 2006.1 and installed newly in another partition.
installation i did the same way as i did before with 2005.3 and 2006.0
the were no significant problems .i have only the minimal install cd . i even did not use that cd.
just chroot into my existing 2006.0 installation and finished initial installation and other things in its own boot
later i changed profile to 2006.1/desktop for alsa and sound problems. now it seems to be working fine and more stable than my 2006.0 installation.

Clete2 · Post by **Clete2** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:14 am

loki99 wrote:
Clete2 wrote:There is a notice on the installer that it is still in beta...
I never tried the GLI but I have been told by releng, that it is not beta, but it has a warning before the install that you should only use it "when you know what you are doing."

And they added that you should have backups anyhow when installing any OS.

I was pretty sure that I saw the notice you're talking about, but it mentioned it being beta or alpha or whatever they call it. Is it in portage so we can watch its progress? Or any official progress page on it?

loki99 · Post by **loki99** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:22 am

Clete2 wrote:
loki99 wrote:
Clete2 wrote:There is a notice on the installer that it is still in beta...
I never tried the GLI but I have been told by releng, that it is not beta, but it has a warning before the install that you should only use it "when you know what you are doing."

And they added that you should have backups anyhow when installing any OS.
I was pretty sure that I saw the notice you're talking about, but it mentioned it being beta or alpha or whatever they call it. Is it in portage so we can watch its progress? Or any official progress page on it?

I'm a little bit in a hurry right now, but I have the link to the project page. To get more info about the progress one would need to contact the responsible devs.
But plz try to be polite when asking them, because I think they are a little defensive about that topic.