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ciaranm
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:47 pm    Post subject: Paludis trolling thread Reply with quote

We've just released version 0.6.0 of Paludis, the most popular and widely used alternative to Portage. With this release we're finally more or less VDB compatible with Portage, so switching to and from Paludis is considerably more likely to work.

Paludis works with the normal ebuild tree, and can be expected to work with most ebuilds that aren't webapps. As demonstrated by it not being called "1.0", there are still bugs, missing features and general oddities; thus, Paludis is not suitable for production systems, and if you care about your data you should still be using Debian. However, it's now more or less usable for at least some people, and it would be nice to get more testing from people who know what they're doing.

More information can be found at http://paludis.berlios.de/. In particular, the "Known Issues" and "Portage Differences" links may be of interest. There's also a #paludis IRC channel on Freenode.

Ebuilds are in the main tree as sys-apps/paludis (you'll need to wait for a bit for 0.6 to show up). Gentoo's bugzilla should *NOT* be used for Paludis related issues, except for any bugs with the Paludis ebuild itself.


Last edited by ciaranm on Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:49 pm    Post subject: Paludis version 0.6.0 Reply with quote

I just read this on the dev-ML and thought it might interest some peeps in here.
And I would also like to know if any of you have had any experiences (but don't tell me any dog-rape stories!) with Paludis yet?

Quote:
Christel Dahlskjaer
<christel@gentoo.org> to gentoo-dev Sep 1

Hiya all,

Just a quick note to let you know that the Paludis guys are happy to
inform you that they've just released version 0.6.0 of Paludis, the most
popular and widely used alternative to Portage. With this release
they're finally more or less VDB compatible with Portage, so switching
to and from Paludis is considerably more likely to work.

Paludis works with the normal ebuild tree, and can be expected to work
with most ebuilds that aren't webapps. As demonstrated by it not being
called "1.0", there are still bugs, missing features and general
oddities; thus Paludis is not suitable for production systems, and if
you care more about your data they encourage you to still use Debian.
However, Paludis is now more or less usable for atleast some people, and
it would be nice to get more testing from people who know what they are
doing.

More information can be found at http://paludis.berlios.de/ . In
particular, the
"Known Issues" and "Portage Differences" links may be of interest. There's also
a #paludis IRC channel on Freenode.

Ebuilds are in the main tree as sys-apps/paludis. Gentoo's bugzilla should *NOT*
be used for Paludis related issues, except for any bugs with the Paludis ebuild
itself.

As it no longer will rape your dog, I suggest you check it out.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would love to use it but ./configure process fails on the check for --as-needed.. I don't see why they won't allow --as-needed.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nesl247 wrote:
I would love to use it but ./configure process fails on the check for --as-needed.. I don't see why they won't allow --as-needed.

Because it won't work if you use it.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well why won't it? Everyone else is getting patches for all their applications to get it to work.. Is it just the install process that won't work with paludis or is there a check in paludis to fail if it detects --as-needed in CFLAGS (when running paludis)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nesl247 wrote:
Well why won't it? Everyone else is getting patches for all their applications to get it to work.. Is it just the install process that won't work with paludis or is there a check in paludis to fail if it detects --as-needed in CFLAGS (when running paludis)

configure.ac checks for it, but only because it's a lot nicer to fail there than to give weird errors at runtime. The problem here is that as-needed is conceptually broken, and although it's possible to write applications specifically to work with it, it will cause legitimate programs to fail, potentially in very bizarre ways.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Paludis version 0.6.0 Reply with quote

loki99 wrote:
and if you care more about your data they encourage you to still use Debian.


huh :?:
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
The problem here is that as-needed is conceptually broken, and although it's possible to write applications specifically to work with it, it will cause legitimate programs to fail, potentially in very bizarre ways.


Fail when? I thought Gentoo was leaning towards supporting --as-needed.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vipernicus wrote:
ciaranm wrote:
The problem here is that as-needed is conceptually broken, and although it's possible to write applications specifically to work with it, it will cause legitimate programs to fail, potentially in very bizarre ways.

Fail when?

One example? When a binary dlopen()s a library in such a way that that library requires a third library that as-needed has removed from the needed list.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Paludis version 0.6.0 Reply with quote

numerodix wrote:
loki99 wrote:
and if you care more about your data they encourage you to still use Debian.


huh :?:

It's a joke because debian is usually so outdated due to security and stability it couldn't possibly cause any issues for your data.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
vipernicus wrote:
ciaranm wrote:
The problem here is that as-needed is conceptually broken, and although it's possible to write applications specifically to work with it, it will cause legitimate programs to fail, potentially in very bizarre ways.

Fail when?

One example? When a binary dlopen()s a library in such a way that that library requires a third library that as-needed has removed from the needed list.

Well this does not mean that --as-needed is conceptually broken, but that the linker per se is conceptually broken and of course the developers should write these libraries to be linked with --no-as-needed.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gergan Penkov wrote:
Well this does not mean that --as-needed is conceptually broken, but that the linker per se is conceptually broken and of course the developers should write these libraries to be linked with --no-as-needed.

Nope. It's a problem with the whole idea of as-needed being allowed to override what library authors tell the linker. If a developer explicitly tells a linker to link certain things, the linker has no business allowing users to override that.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paludis promised reverse dependency checking before, but I couldn't find any mention of it anymore.. Is this not implemented yet?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackEdder wrote:
paludis promised reverse dependency checking before, but I couldn't find any mention of it anymore.. Is this not implemented yet?

It's sitting on Stephen's harddrive...
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Gergan Penkov wrote:
Well this does not mean that --as-needed is conceptually broken, but that the linker per se is conceptually broken and of course the developers should write these libraries to be linked with --no-as-needed.

Nope. It's a problem with the whole idea of as-needed being allowed to override what library authors tell the linker. If a developer explicitly tells a linker to link certain things, the linker has no business allowing users to override that.

What I wanted to say was that --as-needed should have been the default for a long time now and not the current situation, not to speak that the authors and libtool do not know, what they really need.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
BlackEdder wrote:
paludis promised reverse dependency checking before, but I couldn't find any mention of it anymore.. Is this not implemented yet?

It's sitting on Stephen's harddrive...
How and where can I get this harddrive?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gergan Penkov wrote:
What I wanted to say was that --as-needed should have been the default for a long time now and not the current situation, not to speak that the authors and libtool do not know, what they really need.

No. The default should be to do what the developers tell the linker to do. The toolchain has no business guessing anything.

BlackEdder wrote:
ciaranm wrote:
BlackEdder wrote:
paludis promised reverse dependency checking before, but I couldn't find any mention of it anymore.. Is this not implemented yet?

It's sitting on Stephen's harddrive...
How and where can I get this harddrive?

You need to go to Cambridge armed with a decent bottle of scotch, a monkey wrench, some raspberry coulis and a butt plug.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Gergan Penkov wrote:
What I wanted to say was that --as-needed should have been the default for a long time now and not the current situation, not to speak that the authors and libtool do not know, what they really need.

No. The default should be to do what the developers tell the linker to do. The toolchain has no business guessing anything.

this for me is enough to not let the developers decide anything.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gergan Penkov wrote:
ciaranm wrote:
Gergan Penkov wrote:
What I wanted to say was that --as-needed should have been the default for a long time now and not the current situation, not to speak that the authors and libtool do not know, what they really need.

No. The default should be to do what the developers tell the linker to do. The toolchain has no business guessing anything.

this for me is enough to not let the developers decide anything.

Not the Gentoo developers. The upstream developers.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gergan Penkov wrote:

this for me is enough to not let the developers decide anything.


:?: Then, you should start your own operating system from scratch.
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ciaranm
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pilla wrote:
Gergan Penkov wrote:

this for me is enough to not let the developers decide anything.


:?: Then, you should start your own operating system from scratch.

Naah, he should use a distribution which doesn't recruit developers who don't know what SLOT is.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
pilla wrote:
Gergan Penkov wrote:

this for me is enough to not let the developers decide anything.


:?: Then, you should start your own operating system from scratch.

Naah, he should use a distribution which doesn't recruit developers who don't know what SLOT is.

Well probably we will not agree on this, but without --as-needed you could not implement error-free reverse dependacies, relying only on what is available in the ebuilds - essentially because of cases like the expat breakage.
And I still think that the toolchain should impose on the developers this behaviour, I think the logic to include only what is really needed is little better than the logic that libtool, pkgconfig and the developer know better than the linker.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Comon guys!

Stop throwing flamebaits and keep on topic.


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ciaranm
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gergan Penkov wrote:
Well probably we will not agree on this, but without --as-needed you could not implement error-free reverse dependacies, relying only on what is available in the ebuilds - essentially because of cases like the expat breakage.
And I still think that the toolchain should impose on the developers this behaviour, I think the logic to include only what is really needed is little better than the logic that libtool, pkgconfig and the developer know better than the linker.

Unfortunately, you don't really know what you're talking about.

Point the first: with --as-needed, error free reverse deps are impossible because the linker removes certain dependencies that are actually required, making them invisible to the checking software.

Point the second: the linker does not know what is actually required. It knows only of a subset of all dependencies, because it cannot scan libraries for all things that they could possibly dlopen.

Point the third: the developer has to know (with the assistance of autoconf) what's really needed, because the linker has to be told. The only automagic linkage going on is for libc / libstdc++ things; everything else is explicit.

Point the fourth: the expat example has nothing to do with this.

Point the fifth: ebuilds have nothing to do with this either.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Gergan Penkov wrote:
Well probably we will not agree on this, but without --as-needed you could not implement error-free reverse dependacies, relying only on what is available in the ebuilds - essentially because of cases like the expat breakage.
And I still think that the toolchain should impose on the developers this behaviour, I think the logic to include only what is really needed is little better than the logic that libtool, pkgconfig and the developer know better than the linker.

Unfortunately, you don't really know what you're talking about.

Point the first: with --as-needed, error free reverse deps are impossible because the linker removes certain dependencies that are actually required, making them invisible to the checking software.

Point the second: the linker does not know what is actually required. It knows only of a subset of all dependencies, because it cannot scan libraries for all things that they could possibly dlopen.

Point the third: the developer has to know (with the assistance of autoconf) what's really needed, because the linker has to be told. The only automagic linkage going on is for libc / libstdc++ things; everything else is explicit.

Point the fourth: the expat example has nothing to do with this.

Point the fifth: ebuilds have nothing to do with this either.

well peace, I would be happy to test how paludis reverse-dependancies work, when they are implemented.
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