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mark_alec
Bodhisattva
Joined: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 6066
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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 Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: | | Paludis is not a third party installation method. |
Yes, that is true, it is a package manager. However, in order to use paludis, you have to use third party documentation.
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kallamej
Administrator
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 4785
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: | | I'm sorry, I was assuming I was talking to sane people, not people who deliberately go around picking obscure holes to avoid addressing the issue at hand. |
| ciaranm wrote: | | Paludis is not a third party installation method. |
I said that, as far as the forums are concerned, using paludis was similar to using a third party installation method. That will remain our policy until the council decides that Gentoo as a whole, not a few of its developers, supports plaudis and other third party package managers. Currently, that is not the case and you know it.
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| mark_alec wrote: | | ciaranm wrote: | | Paludis is not a third party installation method. |
Yes, that is true, it is a package manager. However, in order to use paludis, you have to use third party documentation. |
And in order to use Vim, you have to use third party documentation. And in order to use exim, you have to use third party documentation. Both are core system components for many people. What's your point?
| kallamej wrote: | | I said that, as far as the forums are concerned, using paludis was similar to using a third party installation method. That will remain our policy until the council decides that Gentoo as a whole, not a few of its developers, supports plaudis and other third party package managers. Currently, that is not the case and you know it. |
How many Gentoo developers support Vim or exim? |
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kallamej
Administrator
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: | | How many Gentoo developers support Vim or exim? |
That's irrelevant to this discussion. The package manager is core to the distribution.
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| kallamej wrote: | | ciaranm wrote: | | How many Gentoo developers support Vim or exim? |
That's irrelevant to this discussion. The package manager is core to the distribution. |
So is a text editor and (for many people) an mta. |
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kallamej
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Joined: 27 Jun 2003
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: | | kallamej wrote: | | ciaranm wrote: | | How many Gentoo developers support Vim or exim? |
That's irrelevant to this discussion. The package manager is core to the distribution. |
So is a text editor and (for many people) an mta. |
You don't use your text editor or mta to install all the software on you computer. Emacs users may perhaps disagree.
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zxy
Veteran
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1160
Location: in bed in front of the computer
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:43 am Post subject: |
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I'm not a dev or admin, I'm just an ordinaray user.
I like paludis, especialy because it handles the system more correctly, specialy dependencies that get broken many times in portage, and even revdep-rebuild doesn't solve them.
I hope that paludis gets it's place and a chance. Gentoo is about choice. Almost every package has some counterparts. I guess having some competition will raise quality.
I've read somwhere that ciarnm wants some specifications to be made for portage (about digesting for example), so paludis could be expanded. That would be good, not only for paludis, but for portage, too. When standards are set, and set GOOD, then the programing and development goes much easier, faster and with higher quality. Repairing something is easier, too.
Ciarnm has shown many good points. Everybody could benefit if instead of fighting some coonstructivism would start to appear.
But anyway, wars come and go, and this one will go away eventualy, when the fires burn out. |
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pilla
Administrator
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Location: Pelotas, BR
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: | | I'm sorry, I was assuming I was talking to sane people, not people who deliberately go around picking obscure holes to avoid addressing the issue at hand. |
By now, you should now that resorting to personal attacks will get you in troubles in this realm.
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| pilla wrote: | | ciaranm wrote: | | I'm sorry, I was assuming I was talking to sane people, not people who deliberately go around picking obscure holes to avoid addressing the issue at hand. |
By now, you should now that resorting to personal attacks will get you in troubles in this realm. |
As will saying bad things about software written by other people, as will suggesting that certain discussions should be moved to Unsupported Software, as will telling people not to use a particular program.
At least, selectively... |
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pilla
Administrator
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Location: Pelotas, BR
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: |
As will saying bad things about software written by other people, as will suggesting that certain discussions should be moved to Unsupported Software, as will telling people not to use a particular program.
At least, selectively... |
No, you can say bad things about software without problem, exactly as you're doing with portage.
Please don't try to start doing what get you kicked from dev here.
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| pilla wrote: | | Please don't try to start doing what get you kicked from dev here. |
You mean saying why pathspec / prefix was broken? |
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pilla
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: |
You mean saying why pathspec / prefix was broken? |
No, by saying things in your own special way.
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Naib
Advocate
Joined: 21 May 2004
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Location: UK - Birmingham
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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and there was me having a bad day
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Weaver Projects
whats the difference between 9/11 and a cow?
u stop milking a cow after 10 years |
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cokehabit
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3302
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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what he wants and what is best for gentoo are two different things as has been shown time, after time, after time.
The day when Gentoo changes one of it's core reasons for migrating to it is when Gentoo is lost completely. |
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | The day when Gentoo changes one of it's core reasons for migrating to it is when Gentoo is lost completely. |
I think you mean, the day Gentoo replaces the core thing holding it back with something that has all of the things people have been needing for years is when Gentoo finally starts progressing again.
People use Gentoo because of the tree. Portage merely delivers a not particularly good way of using the tree, and as a side effect holds the tree back in several very bad ways. |
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Naib
Advocate
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 3891
Location: UK - Birmingham
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: |
People use Gentoo because of the tree. Portage merely delivers a not particularly good way of using the tree, and as a side effect holds the tree back in several very bad ways. |
And portage gives me access to the tree. and to quote you siggy
| Quote: | | Paludis 0.8, now even more puppy friendly than a small child. 97.4% Portage compatible, with none of the bugs! |
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whats the difference between 9/11 and a cow?
u stop milking a cow after 10 years |
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | ciaranm wrote: |
People use Gentoo because of the tree. Portage merely delivers a not particularly good way of using the tree, and as a side effect holds the tree back in several very bad ways. |
And portage gives me access to the tree |
Yet portage does not deliver much of the functionality required to keep the tree usable, and it does not deliver much of the functionality that users desire that would allow them to use the tree more effectively. |
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cokehabit
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | The day when Gentoo changes one of it's core reasons for migrating to it is when Gentoo is lost completely. |
I think you mean, the day Gentoo replaces the core thing holding it back with something that has all of the things people have been needing for years is when Gentoo finally starts progressing again. |
I think you mean that if Gentoo replace the core thing that has brought users to gentoo for the last 4 years which has worked excellently and still does then Gentoo is lost completely
| ciaranm wrote: | | People use Gentoo because of the tree. Portage merely delivers a not particularly good way of using the tree, and as a side effect holds the tree back in several very bad ways. |
People use Gentoo because of the way people view the distro and us, the community.
The day when the community has to come to YOU because paludis has fucked their distro then that is the day that Gentoo dies completely |
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cokehabit
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3302
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | ciaranm wrote: | | People use Gentoo because of the tree. Portage merely delivers a not particularly good way of using the tree, and as a side effect holds the tree back in several very bad ways. |
And portage gives me access to the tree |
Yet portage does not deliver much of the functionality required to keep the tree usable, and it does not deliver much of the functionality that users desire that would allow them to use the tree more effectively. |
people always want more things. If portage was the same as when i came 3 years ago then Gentoo would still be used by as many people as there are today.
Admittedly we would still all be typing ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="..." to emerge certain packages but... |
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Bill Cosby
Guru
Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 430
Location: Aachen, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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I find it interesting how many devs and admins jump into this discussion, which I rarely have seen posting here 
Portage has major flaws, and when asking for solutions I only heard devs telling us that this is not practical etc., I am all for alternatives, and it seems Plaudis might be one. Although I despise C++ I will give it a go (it is written in C++, isn't it?)
So go ciaranm! 
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Last edited by Bill Cosby on Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | ciaranm wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | The day when Gentoo changes one of it's core reasons for migrating to it is when Gentoo is lost completely. |
I think you mean, the day Gentoo replaces the core thing holding it back with something that has all of the things people have been needing for years is when Gentoo finally starts progressing again. |
I think you mean that if Gentoo replace the core thing that has brought users to gentoo for the last 4 years which has worked excellently and still does then Gentoo is lost completely |
Portage has never worked excellently. Portage has done just about barely enough to stop it from being considered unusable.
| Quote: | | The day when the community has to come to YOU because paludis has fucked their distro then that is the day that Gentoo dies completely |
And just how has paludis fucked their distro?
The only thing paludis has fucked is my neighbour's dog, and that was only because of a silly typo in svn that never made it into a released tarball.
| cokehabit wrote: | | people always want more things. If portage was the same as when i came 3 years ago then Gentoo would still be used by as many people as there are today. |
Now think how many more people there would be if it had all those features people need. |
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Cosby wrote: | | Portage has major flaws, and when asking for solutions I only heard devs telling us that this is not practical etc., I am all for alternatives, and it seems Plaudis might be one. Although I despise C++ I will give it a go (it is written in C++, isn't it?) |
It's written in C++, yes. However, if you're looking to develop client apps, there's a Ruby interface that you might find quite a bit friendlier. |
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cokehabit
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3302
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | ciaranm wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | The day when Gentoo changes one of it's core reasons for migrating to it is when Gentoo is lost completely. |
I think you mean, the day Gentoo replaces the core thing holding it back with something that has all of the things people have been needing for years is when Gentoo finally starts progressing again. |
I think you mean that if Gentoo replace the core thing that has brought users to gentoo for the last 4 years which has worked excellently and still does then Gentoo is lost completely |
Portage has never worked excellently. Portage has done just about barely enough to stop it from being considered unusable. |
it was very usable then, you were cutting your teeth and creaming your pants over it, i remember
| ciaranm wrote: | | Quote: | | The day when the community has to come to YOU because paludis has fucked their distro then that is the day that Gentoo dies completely |
And just how has paludis fucked their distro? |
it will do and when Gentoo needs to come to you for help is when Gentoo is doomed
| ciaranm wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | people always want more things. If portage was the same as when i came 3 years ago then Gentoo would still be used by as many people as there are today. |
Now think how many more people there would be if it had all those features people need. |
Portage moved with the times, as the times moved people wanted more things and nothing can carry on exponentially, not even portage. Everyone uses it and there are very few problems that the everyday user has. People may complain about reverse dependency building, depclean and profiles but in the end most people didn't care about that, we used it because we loved it.
TBH, half of the fun was finding your own way around the problems |
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adekoba
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | it will do and when Gentoo needs to come to you for help is when Gentoo is doomed |
a lot of other programs can fuck a distro too.
paludis probably won't ship as default, so the only way for people to fuck up their distro is to knowingly install it. Even then I doubt they can fuck their distro.
Why are you guys giving him such a hard time? He's making a great alternative. An alternative. Meaning you don't have to use it.
I think it's great. |
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kallamej
Administrator
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 4785
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| dark_speedo wrote: | Why are you guys giving him such a hard time? He's making a great alternative. An alternative. Meaning you don't have to use it.
I think it's great. |
I think it's great that you've found something that really works for you. The real issue here is that ciaranm apparently has a problem with the policy we have on the forums regarding questions concerning third party solutions to key components of the Gentoo experience. That is, what methods and software you use to install and maintain your system. We've also stated for the world to see what needs to happen before we will not consider paludis such a third party solution to the maintenance of your system. As far as I know, that won't happen in the immediate future as little has been done to solve those issues yet. At least according to earlier posts in this thread.
We don't direct certain topics to the Unsupported Software forum as a punishment. On the contrary, it is meant as a help for our users to see where or whom they should bug about any problems they encounter using certain pieces of software that Gentoo as a whole does not support.
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