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What do you think about these suggestions?
I love them and I would like to help developing!
20%
 20%  [ 7 ]
I like them.
44%
 44%  [ 15 ]
They aren't important.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I don't like them.
14%
 14%  [ 5 ]
They are stupid. Stop giving useless suggestions.
20%
 20%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 34

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psisquare
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

massysett wrote:
Also Konqueror and the GNOME help reader (forget what it's called) can read both man and info pages.

gnome-extra/yelp, just in case anyone wanted to try it.

IWBCMAN wrote:
It is but one thing that meta-packages, once installed, populate my system with packages, which although related-being dep'ed by the meta-package cannot be uninstalled.

Okay, maybe I missed the point here, but...
Code:
emerge --depclean


Mohij wrote:
In fact this is not only limited to elog, often I want a specific feature and am sure that there is some program, but I don't know one

Maybe adding a longer description to ebuilds (in addition to the current one-liners) like in Debian would help here.

I also miss a way of searching for non-installed packages containing a specific file. Say, I want to install a program not in portage and it complains about a file it can't find, I'd like a quick way for locating the corresponding ebuild (like Debian's auto-apt. btw, anyone want to guess what my last distro was? :wink: )

Apart from that, Gentoo really rocks! I never had my system boot up so fast.. 8)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

psisquare wrote:

Okay, maybe I missed the point here, but...
Code:
emerge --depclean


Not really missed the point. It's just that --depclean is widely regarded as being about as safe as shaving with a chainsaw. Well, maybe slightly safer; I haven't heard of any actual decapitations...

Of course, I've not looked at it for a while so things may have improved.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
Update the USE flag database! I've got USE flags popping up with emerge -upvDN world that I don't know WHAT they do.


euse from gentoolkit. euse -i useflag will show you what a flag does, including local package flags.

I still see room for improvement, though. Quite often, you still don't know exactly what a use flag will do to a certain package without perusing the ebuild itself. Like, "xml - Add support for XML files" is pretty vague. It would be nice if ebuild authors could write a bit more about exactly how the use flag will affect a package, and if they provide that info that it would be shown by use flag info services (euse -i, online listing, etc.)

Dralnu wrote:
Eclean is a dream, too, lol.


Wow, thanks! I didn't know about it.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About the portage-to-C[++]:

I've messed with C/C++ some in the past, and I've looked over Python and Ruby (I don't have much free time, so learning lanugages for me is a bit of a pain), and honestly, the convertion between a scripted language and a hard-coded language is a pain. Some scripting languages have features no hard-coded language have, but hard-coded langues have fewer deps (if done right. This results in a larger bianary, but what the hey). Along those lines, after an initial conversion, I don't think things would be so much worse to keep updated. Here are some things I can see being able to do with a re-write of portage/emerge:

Rewrite Portage into an actual, hard coded language
Rewrite (if needed), things like gentoolkit, and other similar apps to act as plug-ins in Portage (removing things like emerge --search for eix. No sense in dup function programs) in a hard-coded language/script (depending on the function of the program)
Add in a plug-in directory for 3rd party software to allow Portage to be expanded further
Add in db support (MySQL, gdbm, whatever) when the database is emerged. Otherwise, keep it to plain-text for initial installs to reduce system size.

This would also (somewhat) remove the need for the scripting language deps from the base system.

On the comment about emerge --depclean, I've never had a momnets trouble with it. It works for me, quite well, but I could also be just one of the lucky ones.



[sidenote]
I find the real lack of devs here odd. The ones who do show up seem to try to shoot down what is said, and those that end up having things turned around on them don't come back. Personally, I find this to be a very sad fact. One would htink they would want to hear what the user would want, and instead of saying "You didn't give us enough info" or "It cann't be done", could try asking for more detail, or say why it cann't be done, and ask if anyone else might have a clue as to how to fix it...
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Dralnu
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genone wrote:
Lets see ...

...

[quote=Dralnu]Update the USE flag database! I've got USE flags popping up with emerge -upvDN world that I don't know WHAT they do.

What database? use*.desc should be up2date.[/quote]

Actually, looked at it. It isn't "up2date" :)

euse seems to give a fairly complete listing, however, though I havn't looked it over well yet.
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dusik
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
About the portage-to-C[++]:


Check out paludis. It's far from complete, and it's not really meant to be a Portage replacement for everybody, but it's written in C++ with low dependency bloat and it's fast.
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Mohij
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is also Portage-C. Not sure if it is still alive.

Anyways, I would also really like a C/C++ Portage.

Greetings,
moHiJ
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: etc-update filters and emerge --info Reply with quote

boroshan wrote:
A couple of things

Firstly, I'd like to be able to set a filter when using etc-update. Say add a "g" command, which takes a regular expression, after which the command only acts on files that match the pattern. g with no arguments to cancel. Could also have "v" which does a v/re/p and hides all the files that match the regex. I've nearly done this one myself a couple of times. I might yet if folk think it's a good idea. (I tried dispatch-conf - didn't get on with it)


Well, you can use CONFIG_PROTECT and CONFIG_PROTECT_MASK to autoupdate some files. I'm not sure if that's what youre talking about or not, though.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

postmodern wrote:
IWBCMAN wrote:

emerge -u system (traditional-but minus alsa, minus Xorg)
emerge -u multmedia (all packages tagged with multimedia tag)
emerge -u gnome (again tagged with gnome tag)
emerge -u desktop(again packages tagged with desktop tag)
emerge -u server(mysql, postfix, apache, php, java etc.-ie. via tags)


Why not have an ebuild-like system to define package groupings? This way you could use pre-existing groupings or create your own, for lets say all the packages you'd want for a server. Using such a system would make the system install/setup process a breeze. 8)


Or someone could easily setup a group of package.* files for /etc/portage inclusion and say "use these for a generic LAMP setup."
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, I saw a post earlier (cant find it now) about having specific descriptions for what a USE flag does on a certain package.

I personally think its a good idea .. something like package.use.desc maybe, but it seems like it would be tricky to implement, and even then it would be up to the devs writing the ebuilds to make sure the local descriptions get added.

Generally speaking, I think the USE flag descriptions are self-explanatory. If they're not, you can always unpack the file and do ./configure --help | grep -i foo to see a little bit better what its doing.

I dunno -- Id like to see some examples of where the USE flags are confusing per-package. It's never been a huge issue for me.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:

[sidenote]
I find the real lack of devs here odd.


Its always seemed to me like not many devs hit the forums often. Some people just prefer IRC, some mailing lists, some forums.

Dralnu wrote:
The ones who do show up seem to try to shoot down what is said, and those that end up having things turned around on them don't come back. Personally, I find this to be a very sad fact. One would htink they would want to hear what the user would want, and instead of saying "You didn't give us enough info" or "It cann't be done", could try asking for more detail, or say why it cann't be done, and ask if anyone else might have a clue as to how to fix it...


Well one thing that become obvious from this post is that we sometimes aren't communicating clearly some of the current features that are available or some of the reasons why something isn't going to be implemented.

If you really wanted to know what was going on, you could always subscribe to the dev mailing list and just watch the many discussions go by. It's pretty high traffic though, so I wouldnt recommend it if youre just curious.

At the same time, the User Relations project was designed to facilitate communications between development and users. So if things aren't clear, ping the userrel devs. We're trying to clear up communication issues. Part of which has been the new userrep program.

In short, thanks for the feedback, keep it coming. :)

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/user-relations/

Edit: Oh, and if you have a blog, get added to http://www.larrythecow.org/ That's another good way we can see what's going on in the user community. </shameless plug>
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beandog wrote:
I dunno -- Id like to see some examples of where the USE flags are confusing per-package. It's never been a huge issue for me.


Personally, I find it rather obscure when a package can optionally use, say, java or python, but how do I know if I need that functionality? Take, for example:

Code:
[ebuild   R   ] app-office/openoffice-bin-2.0.3  USE="gnome -java"


It would be nice to know what I'm missing if I choose -java. Sure, I could go research what the deal is with openoffice using Java, but if the ebuild dev had the capability to include a line saying "java - adds x, y, z functionality" it would really benefit all the users. After all, Java is a hefty dependency!

I'm not complaining, I just think I see room for improvement, and I'd like to hear some feedback on this. Perhaps, why this isn't really needed or isn't possible, or whatever.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way to keep Python upgrades from killing Portage is to have a separate copy of Python (e.g., /usr/sbin/python-gentoo-2.4) which all Gentoo utilities use. This isolates them from the "user" copy of Python, which can then be freely trashed without harming essential packages.

I haven't looked at the Portage internals, but there certainly are large, complex Python programs that are easy to read and to add features to. If there are certain performance bottlenecks, code those in C but leave the rest in Python. A wholesale switch to C would triple the time needed for a a rewrite, as well as eliminating many potential developers who might otherwise send in patches or write add-on utilities. Another approach might be to make a core C library which the top-level programs (written in either C or Python) would use. But again, what problem are we trying to solve?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stumbled about one thing today when I did my first 64-bit installation on a AMD64 server. It would be nice if emerge could complain about all masked packages when they are needed by a dependency. Now it complains only about the first masked package.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

uweklosa wrote:
I stumbled about one thing today when I did my first 64-bit installation on a AMD64 server. It would be nice if emerge could complain about all masked packages when they are needed by a dependency. Now it complains only about the first masked package.


Very good point, IMO. It can be very frustrating compiling a list of deps to unmask for something like a new version of KDE. Often it makes sense to search online for the full list that someone has already compiled that way.

Is there perhaps a utility that lets you see the full list of dependencies and particularly marks the ones you'll need to unmask? Maybe it would make sense to have a utility that even generates the lines you need in package.keywords for you, so you can just append the output to package.keywords.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dusik wrote:
beandog wrote:
I dunno -- Id like to see some examples of where the USE flags are confusing per-package. It's never been a huge issue for me.


Personally, I find it rather obscure when a package can optionally use, say, java or python, but how do I know if I need that functionality? Take, for example:

Code:
[ebuild   R   ] app-office/openoffice-bin-2.0.3  USE="gnome -java"


It would be nice to know what I'm missing if I choose -java. Sure, I could go research what the deal is with openoffice using Java, but if the ebuild dev had the capability to include a line saying "java - adds x, y, z functionality" it would really benefit all the users. After all, Java is a hefty dependency!

I'm not complaining, I just think I see room for improvement, and I'd like to hear some feedback on this. Perhaps, why this isn't really needed or isn't possible, or whatever.


Ah, yes, that's an excellent example, actually. One that I've run into myself as well.

At the very least, I'll see if I can start a webpage that documents this stuff. Maybe even get a little file put in the portage tree (that would be easy, assuming other devs agree), but getting anything to actually *use* it would be a whole nother story.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dusik wrote:
Is there perhaps a utility that lets you see the full list of dependencies and particularly marks the ones you'll need to unmask? Maybe it would make sense to have a utility that even generates the lines you need in package.keywords for you, so you can just append the output to package.keywords.


Kuroo might help you out here; as I recall it will prompt you to unmask packages that you will need to emerge something that you have already unmasked.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

massysett wrote:
Kuroo might help you out here; as I recall it will prompt you to unmask packages that you will need to emerge something that you have already unmasked.


That's nice! I still want a command line util though, for my purposes. And I'm getting the feeling that there's probably plenty of such scripts that people wrote for themselves, but it would be nice to have an official solution in portage, or at least in gentoolkit.

On a side note, why exactly is gentoolkit separate from portage itself? It's got a lot of really useful everyday utilities in it, so why do the official docs still tell you to e.g. "nano /etc/make.conf" to add a use flag rather than "euse -E", etc.? Seems like it wouldn't give newcomers an accurate impression of how convenient Gentoo can be, until they happen to find out about gentoolkit? I don't think the official installation doc even suggests installing it.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beandog wrote:
At the very least, I'll see if I can start a webpage that documents this stuff. Maybe even get a little file put in the portage tree (that would be easy, assuming other devs agree), but getting anything to actually *use* it would be a whole nother story.


Ok, so I'm observing some actual interest in this issue. Should we perhaps start a separate thread on this?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dusik wrote:
beandog wrote:
At the very least, I'll see if I can start a webpage that documents this stuff. Maybe even get a little file put in the portage tree (that would be easy, assuming other devs agree), but getting anything to actually *use* it would be a whole nother story.


Ok, so I'm observing some actual interest in this issue. Should we perhaps start a separate thread on this?


Good idea:

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-487912.html
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:42 pm    Post subject: Re: etc-update filters and emerge --info Reply with quote

beandog wrote:
boroshan wrote:
Firstly, I'd like to be able to set a filter when using etc-update. Say add a "g" command, which takes a regular expression, after which the command only acts on files that match the pattern.

Well, you can use CONFIG_PROTECT and CONFIG_PROTECT_MASK to autoupdate some files. I'm not sure if that's what youre talking about or not, though.

Well, CONFIG_PROTECT and CONFIG_PROTECT_MASK sound like useful things to know about, so thanks for that. Not quite what I was thinking though

The idea here is an addition to the etc-update command set. You specify a regex and thenceforth all commands apply only to files matching that regex, or mismatching it if you used the "v" version. Command gets cleared at the end of the program or when you specify a null regex. One of the old curses based newsreaders - tin, I think - used to work this way. Back when dinosaurs walked the earth. I thought it worked quite well.

I'll also second the notion that information about these cool new features isn't getting through to the users as well as you might like. I think a lot of people tend to read up on a file exactly once, when they first install the package, and thereafter unless there are letters of fire a mile high, pretty much assume that their current configuration will continue to work. Dunno what the solution is - the dev mailing list is way too high volume for most people like you say - but I agree that the problem deserves some consideration.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beandog wrote:
dusik wrote:
beandog wrote:
At the very least, I'll see if I can start a webpage that documents this stuff. Maybe even get a little file put in the portage tree (that would be easy, assuming other devs agree), but getting anything to actually *use* it would be a whole nother story.


Ok, so I'm observing some actual interest in this issue. Should we perhaps start a separate thread on this?


Good idea:

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-487912.html


Good to see a dev take interest.

About the transition to C/C++, yes it would be a pain in the ass initially. Yes it is alot of work, but personally I think it would be great (plus it would remove what has been stated as a problem with Python updates killing Portage). Kind of like working on a new major version, and having to rewrite all the hack fixes you've made before.

Sounds like a project for Portage 3.0 to me :)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: etc-update filters and emerge --info Reply with quote

boroshan wrote:
I'll also second the notion that information about these cool new features isn't getting through to the users as well as you might like. I think a lot of people tend to read up on a file exactly once, when they first install the package, and thereafter unless there are letters of fire a mile high, pretty much assume that their current configuration will continue to work. Dunno what the solution is - the dev mailing list is way too high volume for most people like you say - but I agree that the problem deserves some consideration.


Something that would help is we need contributions to Gentoo Tips and Tricks in the GWN. People enjoy reading it, we get requests for it, but unfortunately it's not in there very much. I'm actually going to be working on something to solve that little problem soon as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:41 pm    Post subject: Re: etc-update filters and emerge --info Reply with quote

beandog wrote:
boroshan wrote:
I'll also second the notion that information about these cool new features isn't getting through to the users as well as you might like. I think a lot of people tend to read up on a file exactly once, when they first install the package, and thereafter unless there are letters of fire a mile high, pretty much assume that their current configuration will continue to work. Dunno what the solution is - the dev mailing list is way too high volume for most people like you say - but I agree that the problem deserves some consideration.


Something that would help is we need contributions to Gentoo Tips and Tricks in the GWN. People enjoy reading it, we get requests for it, but unfortunately it's not in there very much. I'm actually going to be working on something to solve that little problem soon as well.


lol. Here is an idea:

FEATURE: new-feature-addition-log
FEATURE_ADDITION_LOG="/home/user/Documents/new_features"

Or something else would be

emerge --sync
emerge -pvD --update-feature-list > /home/user/Documents/new_features

to document new features that are getting out.
The last part would probably be handier as you could set it up as a cronjob and run it once a day or something. This would make it a very handy add-on
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I would like to see are mainly two things:
1. I would like to be able to pull security updates only. Sometimes the update of a package breaks something or is blocked by something else or whatever. I am not an experienced Gentoo user so in these cases I usually I often have to search for documentation or this forum etc.. So far I found a solution most of the time but it takes time and sometimes I just have to continue to work. So I would like to pull only security updates in short intervals and take care of the rest every now and then when I have more time.

2. I would really like to see the UTF-8 support improved. I guess that this is mainly a documentation issue. For example you get the hint "...please make sure to set a UNICODE aware CONSOLEFONT and KEYMAP...". Well, I have no idea which consolefont is unicode aware or how I can find that out. I have read the unicode and localization guides and spent some hours on this issue but still I do not seem to have unicode on my console. There is also a keymap problem although I followed these guides. And a German keymap is not that strange, still I do get some American characters on the console if I for example want to type an 'ö'.
Moreover some forum threads tell me to use '...UTF-8' settings during localization although locale -a gives me '...utf8'. I have no idea if that is true, but it is not mentioned in the guides. I do not go into further detail, this is not the thread for it. All I want to mention is that UTF-8 configuration has been very painful for me so far and I would greatly appreciate to see that improved (best for me would be to make it default).

Regards,
Morris
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