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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's normal to blame the distro maintainer when your OS breaks or becomes unstable.

As you well know, Gentoo is a meta-distribution; the distro maintainer is yourself.
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mrbassie
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
@up:

2. Its not good choice of comparison - Debian Stable is just stable (as name says) and its true, whereas Gentoo will fail every +/- 5 mins (at least my install)
2. no Im not
3. I want my OS to be configured my own way thats why first thing after installation was to delete all things I do not use (some 2-3 gb)
4. Whats wrong in GUI installers? nothing


Not by the hair of my chinny chin chin.
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gerard82
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought you had said goodbye.
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seoneal7
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:

3. I want my OS to be configured my own way thats why first thing after installation was to delete all things I do not use (some 2-3 gb)


Jesus. What distros are you using? 2-3 gb? That's a bass-ackwards way of doing things. You've mentioned using Arch. If you need a from the ground up experience, I'd just stick with that or a Debian netinstall. 2-3 gbs is a lot of apps. Sounds like you're installing a terribly bloated distro and working backwards. Why? Even stuff like Manjaro Openbox comes with a pretty minimal selection of software. Removing that much from a preconfigured system seems to defeat the point of installing a preconfigured system. Not that I'm defending bloated environments. Meta-distros just make much more sense (even if you disclude Gentoo). Building up is much more sensible (and less likely to cause problems or a crudded up system) than tearing down.

And of course there is nothing inherently wrong with a graphical installer. But neither is there anything inherently wrong with a distro not shipping one. It all depends. Arch doesn't have an installer either, I would remind you. The two install processes actually feel a little similar to me with the exception of Gentoo's requiring a custom kernel build. pacstrap = extracting a stage 3, etc. Installing Crux feels very, very similar.
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developer1
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerard82 wrote:
I thought you had said goodbye.
Gerard.

I had. To Gentoo - not to this forum.

@seonel7: Yes. Ive been on Arch just for testing (not even a day). My base distro (which I stick to) is openSuse. After removal of all unnecessary apps, its size is 560mb only.
And no - its not defeating anything. Its my system so I want it my way. And even more - its Linux so its far more flexible than Windows and why not make use of this flexibillity?
Arch has its own GUI installer - itts called EvoLution (=> http://sourceforge.net/projects/evolutionlinux/ <=)
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gerard82
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
gerard82 wrote:
I thought you had said goodbye.
Gerard.

I had. To Gentoo - not to this forum.

@seonel7: Yes. Ive been on Arch just for testing (not even a day). My base distro (which I stick to) is openSuse. After removal of all unnecessary apps, its size is 560mb only.
And no - its not defeating anything. Its my system so I want it my way. And even more - its Linux so its far more flexible than Windows and why not make use of this flexibillity?
Arch has its own GUI installer - itts called EvoLution (=> http://sourceforge.net/projects/evolutionlinux/ <=)


Which proves you're only interest is trolling.
Gerard.
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To install Gentoo I use sysrescuecd.Based on Gentoo,has firefox to browse Gentoo docs and mc to browse (and edit) files.
The same disk can be used for 32 and 64 bit installs.
You can follow the Handbook verbatim.
http://www.sysresccd.org/Download
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szatox
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: Bye Gentoo Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
Just as above: I have just removed Gentoo partitions (root/home/swap).....

From openSuse, I run gparted, mark all Gentoo partitions to remove, click Apply and oh yes - all done :). After updating grub2 and restarting, boots openSuse. Finally without Gentoo. Thanks everyone.




Dear OpenSuse community,
It's a high time to start preparation for the incoming calamity.
I'm so sorry.
Regards
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developer1
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: Bye Gentoo Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
Dear OpenSuse community,
It's a high time to start preparation for the incoming calamity.
I'm so sorry.
Regards

if you do not like openSuse (proper writing) than stay away from it and its support forum/s. FYI Im quite respected user there......
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1,

As you are not a user here, you might consider restricting your posts to our Off The Wall forum, where I'm sure they will get the respect that they deserve.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: Bye Gentoo Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
szatox wrote:
Dear OpenSuse community,
It's a high time to start preparation for the incoming calamity.
I'm so sorry.
Regards

if you do not like openSuse (proper writing) than stay away from it and its support forum/s. FYI Im quite respected user there......


Since you don't like gentoo then take your own advice and stay away from it.
Problem solved, unless you are just here to troll, in which case take Neddy's advice.
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developer1
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: Bye Gentoo Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
if you do not like openSuse (proper writing) than stay away from it and its support forum/s. FYI Im quite respected user there......

Since you don't like gentoo then take your own advice and stay away from it.
Problem solved, unless you are just here to troll, in which case take Neddy's advice.[/quote]
I'll stay away from Gentoo for sure, but not from its forums........
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: Bye Gentoo Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
I'll stay away from Gentoo for sure, but not from its forums........


Then you're just a troll and not a very smart one IMO. :roll:


Edit to add: Mods, you might just consider splitting out all of his comments into a thread in OTW where as Neddy said it would be well received.
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: Bye Gentoo Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
I'll stay away from Gentoo for sure, but not from its forums........

In which case, and provided the respect you claim having on the Suze's forum wasn't earned accidentally...
I formally advise you to adopt, on the Gentoo forums, the attitude that is considered worth of respect on the Suze's forums.

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szatox
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Bye Gentoo Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
szatox wrote:
Dear OpenSuse community,
It's a high time to start preparation for the incoming calamity.
I'm so sorry.
Regards

if you do not like openSuse (proper writing) than stay away from it and its support forum/s. FYI Im quite respected user there......

:lol:

This was about you
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seoneal7
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:

Arch has its own GUI installer - itts called EvoLution (=> http://sourceforge.net/projects/evolutionlinux/ <=)


Hrm. Not familiar with that. Certainly not Arch official, though. Not the kind of thing I would trust with my daughter, if you get my gist.
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hasufell
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
As you well know, Gentoo is a meta-distribution; the distro maintainer is yourself.

No, the user is the admin, not the distro maintainer.

Being a meta-distro just means it is easy to hack on it's internals.

Gentoo lacks consistency. A lot. We have some packages with high QA standards and others which are so poor quality or full of hackery that I am embarrassed. That includes a lot of virtual + eselect crap about stuff that wasn't meant to be interchangeable in the first place, as well as downstream-only hackery that affects even other distros.

Recent discussions with the council and QA have shown that our way will be status quo, as in: not enforce more consistency and quality and instead give ebuild maintainers the freedom to do things wrong. It will probably continue to be that way. Still, other distros are a lot worse.

I don't believe that this will cause gentoo to die, since distros like debian with one of the worst QA standards are a lot more popular. The problem is... we cannot compete with their model... so, consistency, QA and control are important for our "marketing model", but we still don't care enough about it. On the other hand, I could be wrong and people expect something different from gentoo.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell wrote:
Ant P. wrote:
As you well know, Gentoo is a meta-distribution; the distro maintainer is yourself.

No, the user is the admin, not the distro maintainer.

Being a meta-distro just means it is easy to hack on it's internals.


And that admin is the distro maintainer; because that's effectively what the admin does, maintain the distribution. Now; your opinion might differ, but that's because you might view "maintainer" as different than the context that that word was used in. Users from the community can maintain something; why is this so, because Gentoo provides them choice which allows them to do so. It's that choice that allows them to hack on what would otherwise be perceived as internals on other distributions.

hasufell wrote:
Gentoo lacks consistency. A lot. We have some packages with high QA standards and others which are so poor quality or full of hackery that I am embarrassed. That includes a lot of virtual + eselect crap about stuff that wasn't meant to be interchangeable in the first place, as well as downstream-only hackery that affects even other distros.


The more choice a distribution provides, the less consistency with upstream that you get; there is a trade-off between both, which is the trade-off between "binaries and presets" and "USE flag based source compilation, virtual/eselect and other hacks that makes these choices work". Gentoo being Gentoo shouldn't be embarrassing...

hasufell wrote:
Recent discussions with the council and QA have shown that our way will be status quo, as in: not enforce more consistency and quality and instead give ebuild maintainers the freedom to do things wrong. It will probably continue to be that way. Still, other distros are a lot worse.

I don't believe that this will cause gentoo to die, since distros like debian with one of the worst QA standards are a lot more popular. The problem is... we cannot compete with their model... so, consistency, QA and control are important for our "marketing model", but we still don't care enough about it. On the other hand, I could be wrong and people expect something different from gentoo.


This entirely depends on what you mean by consistency and quality; if you perceive it to be the quality of having choices that Gentoo provides and the consistency as put above, then you can't put them together in a sentence part like "... more consistency and quality". Giving the maintainers freedom allows them to support more such downstream choices; downstream if upstream doesn't care, as well as maintainers having the time to support it on their own. I think that the status quo here is kept to keep Gentoo a meta distributon; that is to not limit certain possibilities, which recent discussions were suggesting. Our marketing model is based on what the Philosohpy, About and Introduction pages bring forward; not on pushing Gentoo to have its own upstream based consistency, relational control or downstream opinion as that's not what the community has chosen Gentoo for...
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hasufell
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
[some text]

How about we close bugzilla? I bet that will improve gentoo quality.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell wrote:
How about we close bugzilla? I bet that will improve gentoo quality.


That might apply for your view, if that's what you want, although I don't see much other distributions close it; however, for the quality of choice it must remain open to give the community the choice to file and/or fix bugs and other contributions or requests.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij, hasufell,

Its a wise man who knows he can have the last word but chooses not to.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Its a wise man who knows he can have the last word but chooses not to.


:lol: Indeed
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell wrote:
On the other hand, I could be wrong and people expect something different from gentoo.

You are not wrong hasufell. You are just only academically correct.
And reality is not academy.
I see sunrise as some sort of academy but gentoo is not sunrise. (I mean is not only sunrise)
You have been an outstanding teacher in sunrise and have taught there as things should and must be taught : Academically!
There is just no other right way to teach.
I can understand your disappointment, your embarrasment when realizing how far the reality appears from what you took care to teach.
But... isn't that just : normal life ?
And... at the end of the day... what are users waiting for : A working solution here and now or an academically correct answer ?
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Its a wise man who knows he can have the last word but chooses not to.


The last words are also known to be the famous last words, which has an effect with a different strength than the effect of those men believing that they are wise; your words were the last words for a moment and gained some fame (or wisdom, depending on how you look at it), but now my words are famous (or wisdom) until someone else replies again, which is all fine as long as they are written with a good intent. Perhaps, I'm not trying to be wise (or famous), although that may come along naturally with that message; however, I'm trying to keep Gentoo to be Gentoo and to keep it alive, you don't necessarily need to be wise (or famous) to accomplish that. :)

But maybe, on the other side of this coin there could be a political agenda; that agenda could be to keep Gentoo to be Gentoo and to keep Gentoo alive in a wise (or famous) way, by keeping people that posted in this topic visiting the Gentoo forums in which extend they'll remain interested in Gentoo by the resounding effect (is that even a good idea with this topic?). Then a bit of fame (or wisdom) for a short time span comes along as just being the other side of the coin; although, it's only as long as the coin last. You insert it into the vending machine; something comes out, you can only hope for that thing to wisely end up with what you intended it to and not have it be famously spilled out on the floor.

Maybe we're here for adoration, for deception, for distraction, for fame, for fortune, for fun, for motivation, for purveyance, for wisdom or something else, you could make one choice between those and make another choice to accomplish one of those; so, it's hard to tell which choices we've really made when writing a particular post, as you could now believe I'm trying to be famous instead of wise, but perhaps I'm here with another reason which could have made both wise and famous be a deception; but perhaps it's not a deception either, and more along the lines of both fun and motivation? Discussing this further would be a distraction, given it is not the right place to do this; or as some would love it, an adoration, others get wise from it and could even see it as purveyance or as a wisdom.

aCOSwt wrote:
And... at the end of the day... what are users waiting for : A working solution here and now or an academically correct answer ?


A certain set of academic background is needed to come up with working solutions that work out for everyone; you might be able to satisfy some users with some small preset or hacked up solutions here and there without prior academical knowledge by reading a bit of non-academical documentation here and there, but you don't magically write your own Portage to support such presets or hacks without the academical knowledge obtained from reading substantial amounts of academical texts.

Sunrise is a good example of a large working solution that could be written down as an academical correct answer to the problem that users have trouble with having an easy way to contribute packages, it is easy to imagine a paper written about it; so, now that this has been demonstrated, we can go a step further and create a similar overlay (https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=506092) which combines the proven concepts of both sunrise and proxy maintenance to have an effective way for users to contribute to the Portage tree albeit not having access to it. I don't think we would ever get to a proxy maintenance overlay if neither the sunrise and proxy maintenance concepts were born; neither would those concepts have born if there weren't all those things that these two concepts depend on (shared commit access, certain communication, filing bugs, reviewing, ...). Doing a single concept, like a review, is easy and can be a small working solution to a certain case; but combining multiple concepts, into some bigger solution that works, needs an academical approach to it. You don't just randomly pick them and expect them to work, as that is a total disaster; no, it requires thoughts and work to be effective, a combined concept like Portage works the way it does because it has a certain academical background to it...

That does not withhold that a lot of smaller working non academical solutions are needed too for daily progress; but once in a while, an academical solution can help to speed up the progress or to prevent it from regressing. In more academical words, which a lot can be read and practiced about, the previous sentence is sustainability and innovation; which are two words that are very relevant to the title of this thread...
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steveL
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Its a wise man who knows he can have the last word but chooses not to.

And it's a total moron who takes wise words as an excuse to drivel for ages. ;)

Morons with intelligence, what fun.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, given that this thread is full of wise words and drivel for ages, we're all morons with intelligence.
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