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TomWij
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kite14 wrote:
TomWij wrote:
[emerge -uvDN world] Works 99% of the time.

Actually (at least in my system) it works 100% of the time.
Gentoo devs, please, do something... my updates are getting boring!


The next EAPI might make things more interesting.
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developer1
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
What do you mean by unstable?

By unstable I mean situation in which you install one packet which you need end system installs tons of (not needed) bloat....where many bloat conflicts with each other and emerge is no help. And (most often) this is starting point of unstability of OS. No matter what you do afterwards you cannot roll back to stability.

I know it sounds strange but this is true for me.
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gerard82
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This troll will never stop.
I'd suggest stop replying,it's a waste of time.
Gerard.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
TomWij wrote:
What do you mean by unstable?

By unstable I mean situation in which you install one packet which you need end system installs tons of (not needed) bloat....where many bloat conflicts with each other and emerge is no help. And (most often) this is starting point of unstability of OS. No matter what you do afterwards you cannot roll back to stability.


That's just Gentoo preventing you from shooting in your own foot, where you just need to make a choice between what conflicts; it makes things more stable, as you don't overwrite files by other packages or use packages that are known to be incompatible. This in general applies to any OS, as it is one of the basic tasks of a package manager; on other choices you see this less, as you lose control and these conflict choices have been made for you. If you want something different than such choice; you can on Gentoo, but you can't on a premade binary distro that has a vendor lock-in that prohibits another choice.

gerard82 wrote:
I'd suggest stop replying,it's a waste of time.


It is educative for some people, as it clarifies how Gentoo is different from premade binary distros and therefore a specific need that won't make it die anytime soon; if you consider that a waste of time, you are welcome to stop watching the topic.
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kite14
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
It is educative for some people, as it clarifies how Gentoo is different from premade binary distros and therefore a specific need that won't make it die anytime soon; if you consider that a waste of time, you are welcome to stop watching the topic.

TomWij, I really admire your patience in trying to explain "our" point about Gentoo and source distro in general, but I'm afraid in this case developer1 won't change his mind, whatever you might say... in this sense gerard82 is right: it's just a waste of time.
For sure this discussion will clear things up for more open-minded new users.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kite14 wrote:
TomWij, I really admire your patience in trying to explain "our" point about Gentoo and source distro in general, but I'm afraid in this case developer1 won't change his mind, whatever you might say... in this sense gerard82 is right: it's just a waste of time.


If it were for developer1 alone, that would be true. This discussion will stick in the back of his mind, not in ours; he (or she) might think he is right, but he will know in the end that he is in doubt and thus might not be as right or wrong as thought. There is indeed nothing that we can do than to rehash what Gentoo is about; he has stated that he won't use it right now, but when he comes across a choice forced by another premade binary distro he'll think about us again. Our participation here goes as far as clear up a misunderstanding and make him consider it again, but there is no use in going further into a convincing game; that would indeed be a waste of time, as there are more efficient ways to convince multiple users than a single user that has already chosen for another distro for now.

kite14 wrote:
For sure this discussion will clear things up for more open-minded new users.


Yes, that is what is meant with educative; consider how this thread is at 174k views, which is growing at a fast rate. If we only have people say what Gentoo is not, then they won't know what Gentoo actually is; so, hence some of us participate to turn this "Gentoo hate" into a "Gentoo love / hate relationship" thread, which will have people see the good and bad of Gentoo rather than just the bad. The former (good and bad) is useful for open-minded new users whom read this thread, the latter (bad only) is a waste of time to even have this thread around; so, let's not censor or ignore the hate and instead use its strength to point out the love that is the way of Gentoo.
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developer1
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerard82 wrote:
This troll (...)

Mark your words.... who gave you the right to insult/humiliate others ?? I demand apologies for this. Here.

Having different view on sth and trying to make myself clear/understandable for everyone you call trolling? poor you......

@TomWij - I change my mind once you give me irrefutable reason. Its not that Im somehow closed to others' reasons/points of view - all of you (by now) have not provided me irrefutable argument.

In this discussion you (source/meta distro users/fans) are trying to convince me (binary distro user & big fan) that source/meta distros are better, you give reasons for it, your views on that and so on. Im trying to make it other way - Im using my reasons/views to convince you that binary distro is better.....

All is done (almost) without insulting others.... its generally peaceful conversation. Iwith minor exception (gerard82 is trying to provoke me) - ts not war.


Last edited by developer1 on Thu May 08, 2014 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
gerard82 wrote:
This troll (...)

Mark your words.... who gave you the right to insult/humiliate others ??


The way you've been going on you're behaving like one.
And it's not an insult or humiliation, simply his opinion of your actions.

Edit to add: I don't care whether you're here trolling or not.
Simply giving an explanation as to why you are wrong in labeling his view as an insult.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In other words, insults/humilation are not only words like "troll"; you can find them in other forms too, see http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html for more details.

developer1 wrote:
@TomWij - I change my mind once you give me irrefutable reason.


Now that we're talking about refutations (which the above link covers well) I'm yet to see a refutation, thus the central point appears to be irrefutable; all it needs is your consideration, which is entirely up to you.

Our work is done here... :wink:
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developer1
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
developer1 wrote:
gerard82 wrote:
This troll (...)

Mark your words.... who gave you the right to insult/humiliate others ??


The way you've been going on you're behaving like one.
And it's not an insult or humiliation, simply his opinion of your actions.

Edit to add: I don't care whether you're here trolling or not.
Simply giving an explanation as to why you are wrong in labeling his view as an insult.

You seriously think that expressing my point/s of view is trolling?
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developer1
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK never mind guys..... its starting to become a war.....

everyone here has right to his/her views on this or that..... we cannot change that.........

May I ask for closure?
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genstorm
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a look at the sheer size of this thread. Do you really think you could possibly earn the right to claim closure here? ;)
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
In this discussion you (source/meta distro users/fans) are trying to convince me (binary distro user & big fan) that source/meta distros are better, you give reasons for it, your views on that and so on. Im trying to make it other way - Im using my reasons/views to convince you that binary distro is better.....


"better" is subjective - it all depends on the problem what is better.
A distro is a tool to do a job - use whatever solves your problem best for you - even if its Windows
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szatox
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1, you claim again and again we're trying to convince you that Christmas is better than Easter. Or that blue is prettier than pink. You fail to notice the part "I/we like". You only see "Cristmas better". You put words in our mouth we have never said, and then you act surprised you are being called a troll. Yeah, well, pointing fingers is as good way to get upper hand as any other.

So, to make things clear: we DON'T say gento is better for you. We DO say it is better for us. Whether you are a part of "us" is up to you. We don't care if you like Windows more.
[url]http://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/Pies_i_wilk_(1893)[/url] <- a short story for you
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steveL
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, not a troll. Just two pages of incoherent rambling from someone who has NFC whereof they speak, but we all have to humour him to show how nice we are, or something. Here's an idea: you like binary distros so much, you're on SUSE, and you hate Gentoo. Kindly stay there and keep your nonsense to yourself.

IF you actually need help with something, do what everyone else does and start a topic asking for help. Since you're not actually interested in running a Gentoo install, and in fact think it's "dangerous" in some way, kindly go away and do whatever you want without acting like we should care. We don't. Use what you want.

Troll, imo. Take that as an insult if you want, it's quite common for trolls to take that line. Or y'know take it as a wakeup call and review your posts to this topic; perhaps you have something to learn.

Either way I don't care, most especially about your "opinions" about Gentoo. Good luck in lala-land where bindists make sense.
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ExecutorElassus
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

threads like this are exactly why I've never looked back from Gentoo: the user community is the best (PS shout out to NeddySeagoon, who spent weeks helping me rebuild a system after a failed drive totally børked it. 'sup, homie?). That you guys spend so much time patiently explaining the philosophy behind the distro to someone who clearly isn't interested in hearing about it is testament to the spirit behind gentoo.

Sometimes, just for fun, I dig back in the forum to find the "gentoo sux and is going to die any day" posts from back in, like, 2005. Even back during the rough year when the foundation forgot to pay its bills and almost got de-incorporated, we've always managed to hold it together, and I'm honored that I've been along for the ride.

<3
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Yamakuzure
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ExecutorElassus wrote:
threads like this are exactly why I've never looked back from Gentoo: the user community is the best (PS shout out to NeddySeagoon, who spent weeks helping me rebuild a system after a failed drive totally børked it. 'sup, homie?). That you guys spend so much time patiently explaining the philosophy behind the distro to someone who clearly isn't interested in hearing about it is testament to the spirit behind gentoo.
Ah! A big +1 on that one.

Anyone who doesn't believe that should search the forums for "systemd" and look how we bit off each other heads about the mere possibility that someone someday might consider taking choice away from us. :D And yet we sorted it all out and are still talking to each other.

Anyone who thinks that something like that is not extraordinary should try such a "war" in a debian forum. *lol*

@developer1: If you a) manually install garbage outside your package managers control on your system, it is your fault. And b) deciding to say gentoo is crap because nobody has written an ebuild for you exotic piece of hardware is something we only can frown upon. It would be rather small task to whip up an ebuild for your Brother DCP variant, as tools like app-arch/rpm2targz are there and Brother *has* released source code. (Link is above)

But after your behavior, who should care? Nobody ever seemed to need such an ebuild, or there would be one for your over 6 years old drivers. (The LPR drivers are dated 2008-02-13!)

developer1 wrote:
TomWij wrote:
What do you mean by unstable?

By unstable I mean situation in which you install one packet which you need end system installs tons of (not needed) bloat....where many bloat conflicts with each other and emerge is no help. And (most often) this is starting point of unstability of OS. No matter what you do afterwards you cannot roll back to stability.

I know it sounds strange but this is true for me.

Finally I think you are making things up. Don't forget who you are talking to. We are really using and maintaining gentoo. Some of us on several machines, even production machines.

So you are either not understanding the system (We can help you with that) or you are just telling stories.

"...system installs tons of (not needed) bloat..." Just in case: This is what USE flags are for.

"...where many bloat conflicts with each other and emerge is no help..." Show us. I do not believe you. emerge normally shows *exactly* what is going on and what you can do to fix things. It might look overwhelming at first, though.

"...No matter what you do afterwards you cannot roll back to stability..." And that is what you did not get. This is gentoo. You can roll back from everywhere to anywhere. (Unless you need to downgrade glibc. Then you are screwed.)

@TomWij: Your patience is legendary! :) And I agree with you. While developer1 tries to aggravate us others might find those explanations useful. So do I. ;)
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djdunn
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bloat bloat bloat bloat bloat.

maybe certain meta packages bloat.

otherwise, dependencies are normally dependencies for a reason, and use flags are usually very good at trimming dependencies.
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developer1
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 4:43 pm    Post subject: Bye Gentoo Reply with quote

Just as above: I have just removed Gentoo partitions (root/home/swap).....

From openSuse, I run gparted, mark all Gentoo partitions to remove, click Apply and oh yes - all done :). After updating grub2 and restarting, boots openSuse. Finally without Gentoo. Thanks everyone.

Will not miss it and will not be back

====

openSuse is very user-friendly (in general - not Gentoo - meaning) Linux distribution. What made me choose openSuse?

1. Stability - this is what Gentoo lacks. openSuse is extremely stable distro.
2. Power, its zypper (and Yast2 in general) is far more powerful then emerge.
3. Ease of use - in most cases things just work; very few of them needs configuring (even if - its not hard),
4. Nice - troubleless - GUI installer,
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lexflex
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who cares?
Why bother posting this ?
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Chiitoo
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 4:58 pm    Post subject: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

Warefell, developer1!


Also... welcome back for when you want to build your next try.

It's unfortunate that you had such an experience. It's also weird, because pretty much everything you describe your Gentoo as, contradicts with my experiences, and what my Gentoo does.

Perhaps it spawned from a configuration issue, and/or from a misunderstanding or few, or the rest of us really are crazy and can't see what you see.


Anyblue, better luck with your future endeavours!

May your choice(s) serve you well.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merged above three posts as most of the discussion was here.

developer1,

Gentoo is very user friendly too, its just more choosy about its friends than openSuse.
We wish you well with whatever distro you choose.
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:
openSuse is very user-friendly (in general - not Gentoo - meaning)


Having considered all your 36 posts and then reading what

Chiitoo wrote...

Who still dares telling that the Gentoo community is not the user-friendliest... and... by far!
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Bye Gentoo Reply with quote

developer1 wrote:

====

openSuse is very user-friendly (in general - not Gentoo - meaning) Linux distribution. What made me choose openSuse?

1. Stability - this is what Gentoo lacks. openSuse is extremely stable distro.
2. Power, its zypper (and Yast2 in general) is far more powerful then emerge.
3. Ease of use - in most cases things just work; very few of them needs configuring (even if - its not hard),
4. Nice - troubleless - GUI installer,


Ok I was until now giving you the benefit of the doubt but you are definitely trolling.

1. Gentoo is very stable. I say this as an ex Debian user (stable branch). If you've had stability issues, they're very likely your own fault.
2. You're talking shite.
3. Do you want your OS to be configured the way you want or the way someone else thinks it should be. That's choice, which is a good thing. If Gentoo's not for you...meh.
4. Refer to the line above.

I don't think anybody will miss you either. There's no need to whinge.
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developer1
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@up:

2. Its not good choice of comparison - Debian Stable is just stable (as name says) and its true, whereas Gentoo will fail every +/- 5 mins (at least my install)
2. no Im not
3. I want my OS to be configured my own way thats why first thing after installation was to delete all things I do not use (some 2-3 gb)
4. Whats wrong in GUI installers? nothing
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