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coolsnowmen
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zork the Almighty wrote:

2) We need to combine major updates, to minimize or at least schedule the inconvenience to users. The quarterly profiles were a good idea, but they are actually not frequent enough. I suggest changing the stable branch once a month (patch Tuesday!) with the exception of security updates. Nobody can claim that's not bleeding edge, but at the same time it should reduce the burden on package maintainers and provide some sort of protection for users against broken updates. The testing branch could be frozen for 5 days before the switchover to allow people to upgrade earlier (at a slightly higher risk). People who don't have time for problems could upgrade later in the cycle. You could schedule your upgrades according to how much risk you want to take (nifty!). Gentoo is a large distro with a widely varying userbase. It could work.

I completly disagree. Why would you hold ebuild version releases simply because its not tuesday. What an arbitrary thing to do.

If you find upgrades a pain: then wait and do them at your convienance. If you only want to upgrade on dayX of the month/week, then only sync on that day...or only check security updates to be safe. No one is forcing you (or anyone else) from checking 'FEATURES="*" KEYWORDS="*" emerge -auDvt world' every morning (no I have no idea what that might do). Don't force others to wait because you don't feel like upgrading on mondays. Noone is forcing you too, but if you removed the ability of others...then you've taken their choice away. If gentoo is about choice...then choose.

In fact, I read about more people who like the rolling updates, because that lets them attend to one problem at a time, if only one thing breaks then you can more easily narrow down the problem. "my computer broke" is a harder thing to diagnose, vs, "I just upgraded X and the nvidia drivers don't seem to load"

Specifically, if you only released stable branches every X days, it changes nothing...I don't think this would at all have your desired effect of protecting users against broken updates.

If an update confuses you, then wait a bit, and check the forums, if its major, I'm sure someone will have solved your problem, or atleast explained. If no one has after this period of time, post the question.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: why Gentoo sucks, and why it will ultimately die Reply with quote

antonlacon wrote:
Lechium wrote:
Zork the Almighty wrote:
Sometimes the "solution" is to install a bunch of packages from ~x86, weeks before they are made "stable".

That's something I totally agree with -- I tried keeping my system as stable and basic as possible, but random breaks grew my file that holds unmaksed packages longer and longer for some reason...


Yes, because unstable packages can require unstable packages. Why is that surprising?

Because when stable package broke, only solution given to me often was either to replace it with unstable version, or install an unstable package tp support it.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stay patient. Read the documentation before upgrading. Follow directions.

Do those three things and you are good to go.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I've been using gentoo on and off for more than two years now, and I've come to the conclusion that gentoo.org is at least right on one thing. gentoo is a metadistribution.

I think it would be fair to say that gentoo is not a distribution at all. It's more like a set of tools to make your own distribution, the way you want it.

So I think you should give it a rest. Don't say something sucks, even if you think it does. That's just plain rude.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toralf wrote:
Ctrl+Alt+Del wrote:
We need a dedicated subforum for "Gentoo sucks/I am Leaving Gentoo" and last but not least "I am back" Threads.
LoL - that's the best comment :-)
yeah 4 sure ;) n1
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at240
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toralf wrote:
Ctrl+Alt+Del wrote:
We need a dedicated subforum for "Gentoo sucks/I am Leaving Gentoo" and last but not least "I am back" Threads.
LoL - that's the best comment :-)

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-483427-start-0-postdays-0-postorder-asc-highlight-.html

:roll: :lol:
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

we should start a survey to prohibit those threads! so the technical stuff has more space... why dont they use windoz(or whatever) and stfu ? sometimes i think by myself those threads are started by professional Mxcrxsxft marketing employes ;) this must be a new mxcrxsxft virus created to destroy linux ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some valid points, but it seems to me alot of people update their system too often, well of course it's cool and all to stay bleeding edge 8) but then again if you want to do that then you should expect some system maintenance here and there.
Alot of 'new' gentoo users simply rush into emerge x package the moment someone creates an overlay or it gets in portage, then when it don't immediatly work it's Gentoo's fault :P
Always do emerge -p first and wait for people to post their experiences on forums before emerging system critical stuff :wink:
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saint1911 wrote:
Some valid points, but it seems to me alot of people update their system too often, well of course it's cool and all to stay bleeding edge 8) but then again if you want to do that then you should expect some system maintenance here and there.
Alot of 'new' gentoo users simply rush into emerge x package the moment someone creates an overlay or it gets in portage, then when it don't immediatly work it's Gentoo's fault :P
Always do emerge -p first and wait for people to post their experiences on forums before emerging system critical stuff :wink:


This leads to the question of whether there is a right way, an official best practice, a gentoo sanctioned way to keep your system stable while doing a rolling upgrade that doesn't leave you too far behind as to be unable to upgrade. This is a supposed stable tree is it not? Is it stable or bleeding edge? Would it not be logical to stay updated to the latest stable tree. How long can you go without updating before you are no longer able to?

If emerge world is such a bad idea at this point why is it still touted in the manual as the way to update your system? I've seen posts in this forum that suggest two emerge system's and two emerge worlds are neccessary to actually update your system correctly because portage doesn't neccesarilly do things in the correct order.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a few cases I agree, but I don't know many of the problems you seem to have had. Since when is 15 minutes or repair time serious breakage? If you are that stessed for time, you need to start reschedualing...

In all my updats (granted I havn't been using Gentoo very long (since the 2.6.16-genntoo-r9 kernel)), I've never had a serious problem minus sound not working, and that I don't consider serious breakage. Nothing kept me from moving forward, so I was good.

The update to Xorg 7.0/7.1 was well documented (never check anouncements on the boards, do you?), and on x86 worked like a breeze. AMD64 I know had problems, but I think alot of them have been resolved, but I use x86, so I may be wrong on that.

The modular KDE was great IMHO, but I still don't like alot of it (I use IceWM. Something I wanted out of KDE required kwin. Why?), but its a step in the right direction.

If you want to keep a system truely lean, and you think Gentoo is bloated, try SuSe or another package-based distro. Alot of the bloat in Gentoo I know about is basically the src files that you keep around. The compiles aren't too bad. I did an emerge -e world once, and kept going with the only slowdown being with loading Opera (this is on a 512 MB RAM 2.53GHz P4).



Gentoo does have problems, and I think the devs don't pay attention as much to the users as they should, but when it comes down to it, everyone wants something diffrent, and if they try to please everyone, nothing will ever get done.

You can have one or the other right now: Flexability, speed, and bleeding-edge, or bloated, stable, and dated. I have seen few cases of both.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

slonocode wrote:
This leads to the question of whether there is a right way, an official best practice, a gentoo sanctioned way to keep your system stable while doing a rolling upgrade that doesn't leave you too far behind as to be unable to upgrade.

Don't know how "official" this is, but my personal recommendation is to perform a full system update at least every six months, preferrably a bit more often (say every four months) to keep a safety buffer. Can't speak for other devs, but six months is generally the time I support an upgrade path (so if you're updating from a version that has been replaced for over six months I may or may not help you if you encounter any problems with the update).
Oh, and always use a current (= one that exists in the tree) version of sys-apps/portage, using a highly outdated version of that can cause you a lot of trouble.

Quote:
If emerge world is such a bad idea at this point why is it still touted in the manual as the way to update your system? I've seen posts in this forum that suggest two emerge system's and two emerge worlds are neccessary to actually update your system correctly because portage doesn't neccesarilly do things in the correct order.

a) who said it's a bad idea?
b) what posts say that you have to update system and world twice each? Are you maybe referring to the (IMHO stupid) recommendation to rebuild them twice for toolchain changes?
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slonocode
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genone wrote:
slonocode wrote:
This leads to the question of whether there is a right way, an official best practice, a gentoo sanctioned way to keep your system stable while doing a rolling upgrade that doesn't leave you too far behind as to be unable to upgrade.

Don't know how "official" this is, but my personal recommendation is to perform a full system update at least every six months, preferrably a bit more often (say every four months) to keep a safety buffer. Can't speak for other devs, but six months is generally the time I support an upgrade path (so if you're updating from a version that has been replaced for over six months I may or may not help you if you encounter any problems with the update).
Oh, and always use a current (= one that exists in the tree) version of sys-apps/portage, using a highly outdated version of that can cause you a lot of trouble.


Is that a matter of running a single emerge command ala emerge -avuDN world or are there multiple steps involved in a full system update? If someone waits 4 months to update their system how can they be expected to know all the little problems that may be announced in some location outside of a portage command line message?
Quote:

Quote:
If emerge world is such a bad idea at this point why is it still touted in the manual as the way to update your system? I've seen posts in this forum that suggest two emerge system's and two emerge worlds are neccessary to actually update your system correctly because portage doesn't neccesarilly do things in the correct order.

a) who said it's a bad idea?
b) what posts say that you have to update system and world twice each? Are you maybe referring to the (IMHO stupid) recommendation to rebuild them twice for toolchain changes?


Many posts in this forum contain the statement that anyone stupid enough to run emerge world deserves any problems they encounter. Yes I'm refering to that recommendation thread of rebuilding them twice. You can say its a stupid recommendation but it is about the only place I've ever seen an explanation of the "toolchain" which seems to be the new buzzword. Since there is no real official guide to a stable upgrade plan the sifting through the forums is the only way to formulate one. So while you as a developer can call it stupid how is someone trying to figure out a stable upgrade plan supposed to filter all the differing opinions? Not to mention all the references to revdep-rebuild, ecatmur scripts, one shot emerges and when or when not to use any of them.


P.S.
My intention is not to defend or debate whether that build things twice thread is valid/invalid or stupid or not.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zork;

Please forgive my last posting.. I get a little upset when people talk about why a distro will *ultimately die*... but maybe you should get more involved with the development process of gentoo and try to impliment your ideas, rather than complain about whats wrong with the os? Yeah gentoo is growing somewhat outta hands in some areas... and believe me I should probably be complaining as much as you are. But then again, I'm running ~x86 and out of all the distros out there, gentoo is still my favorite! I'm sure you will have lots of fun installing fedora core 5 or debian! :)

Thanks
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To keep things short.

I think Zork the Almighty, you are doing something wrong. I have similar habits then you do and never was annoyed by broken packages.
I simply put tem on a todo list and mask the package when it fails. So what?
I do not need the latest rubbish today. For example I havent updated Xorg yet. I will have to soon. But hmm it can wait for now.
I just managed to update the real pain package my Kernel, since I fail to use genkernel :D. (it is always broke then.) So i keep doing Kernel updates by hand. But thats my wrong doing and my lazyness not to fix things.

Maybe you should get somewhat lazy too :D

For Portage I like the moduls. They save compiletime, place and other stuff so I am happy. Okey Emerge needs moretime. yes. but thats all. And time is something emerge can have from my idleing cpu...

So basicly I am happy with Gentoo as is. Well you can always improve things you know.

I hope I find time for my new portage playyard project to enhance the compiletimes beyond sane. But that wont work I believe ;)

The only thing that I miss to is the dependencie stuff.
I would be happy if a dependend package could itselve register within another packadge that it is there.

Exampl.
Package a is dependend on package B. When package a gets installed it tries to register at package B. When Package b gets updated it outomaticly knows it may be a good Idea to reemerge package a after its finished. So after it was successfully emerge it throws an event and Package A gets happly emerged.
That would hopefully make revdep rebuild obsolete. But since we have revdep rebuild it is nothing with high priority. And the Idea is only an idea of me. And I am to lazy to try my Idea out.
sight.

Now that are real problems. So I think I go and stop beeing lazy for today.
cya on some other thread :D
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Complaints about Gentoo are totally valid, but if your argument is that the change from a monolithic system to a modular system creates a bloated system, you don't understand the important of modularization. (This applies to packages, software coding, business, anything)

People can't have it both ways and argue that developers are too slow to fix things, yet we want to keep an monolithic structure that makes it even harder to work with and longer to users to compile. Hmm, yes lets take hours to recompile all of Xorg, when we could have a single modular package that only takes minutes. Imagine as a developer needing longer compile times just to test patches.

Additionally, more packages does not equal more work and more bloat. You have the exact same software, (or less), and it is still all updated with the same single command.

This argument is about as valid as all the Window users who call for service because they think the "bloat" of software on their hard drives is what is slowing their machines down. 99% of the time it has nothing with hard drive capacity.

Gentoo does have issues and ways it can be improved, but we need to stop worrying about the perceived problems/issues and concentrate on the real issues.

Edit: Fixed spelling mistakes
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Zork the Almighty
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
People can't have it both ways and argue that developers are too slow to fix things, yet we want to keep an monolithic structure that makes it even harder to work with and longer to users to compile.


I don't mind modularization, but meta-packaging doesn't work correctly. If I want to use ~x86 KDE, what am I supposed to do - add 200 entries to package.keywords ? Sure it can be done automatically, but what about managing versions - it's a nightmare. Also, changing the underlying dependencies of packages does introduce bloat over time. Things that are no longer necessary are kept because other packages were built against them, while new things are added. The only way to clear it out is to reinstall or rebuild from scratch because all the dependencies have changed.

It really is impossible to please everyone. I think you can pick any two of:
1) continually updated software
2) which does not break
3) and does not introduce bloat

Most commercial software uses a release schedule to satisfy 2) and 3). Inside of a single release, they use 1) and 2) to satisfy users. Gentoo seems to me to have picked 1) only. I realize they are trying to modularize everything to improve the distro in the future, but I really think it should be done on some sort of schedule, because it's very inconvenient to have frequent major updates to the underlying system. Apparently there are plenty of people here who disagree.

As for why I'm not jumping in, my job lately has consisted of cleaning up large software projects which were unnecessarily complex to the point of introducing errors and confusing users and developers alike. It's easy to introduce complexity in software development. It's also easy to point to that complexity and say you did something worthwhile, when in fact your effort inhibits users and future development. Eventually the software becomes too complex and unmanagable, and users abandon it. The company knows that improvement is needed, and I get to deal with the mess. This happens because money is involved, and the end result is usually good. But with open source there is no incentive so projects are just abandoned. It is monumental waste of effort, so that's why I feel it is very important to keep software only as complex as it needs to be.[/glep]


Last edited by Zork the Almighty on Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ACCEPT_KEYWORDS=~x86 emerge kde

Curious, what operating system are you moving to?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zork the Almighty wrote:
Quote:
People can't have it both ways and argue that developers are too slow to fix things, yet we want to keep an monolithic structure that makes it even harder to work with and longer to users to compile.


[/glep]I don't mind modularization, but meta-packaging doesn't work correctly. If I want to use ~x86 KDE, what am I supposed to do ? Add 200 entries to package.keywords ?

Yes.
The meta-packaging system works fine, just because it doesn't work with ~arch doesn't mean it doesn't work.

There are several posts already that show you a simple BASH script to add all the entries for you into /etc/portage/package.keywords.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zork the Almighty wrote:
Quote:
People can't have it both ways and argue that developers are too slow to fix things, yet we want to keep an monolithic structure that makes it even harder to work with and longer to users to compile.


[/glep]I don't mind modularization, but meta-packaging doesn't work correctly. If I want to use ~x86 KDE, what am I supposed to do ? Add 200 entries to package.keywords ?


i did it manually and there were not more than 20-30 entries... so whats the problem ? and i had already a lot of dependencies...
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phenax wrote:
ACCEPT_KEYWORDS=~x86 emerge kde

Curious, what operating system are you moving to?


but that would make a lot of trouble , a simple "emerge -uvaDN world" would downgrade kde..
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well...

As I see it you pay a price in time for the benefit of configurability; you take on the role of quality assurance for the binaries on your system.

I must admit I have been extremely frustrated at times by gentoo because I am impatient and want things to work now!

But you can't have your cake and eat it too ;) It takes time to assure quality and limited resources are going to cater to the majority - which results in a less flexible (but more stable) distribution.

I have been using Gentoo as my primary system for almost six months now and before that I had quite limited experience (not using day to day) with debian and redhat. I really like Gentoo. I have not been around long enough to get a feel for management admittedly, but I my expectations are not very high - people give up their time and that must be appreciated.

Once I figured out how to use portage properly I have not had a problem. Make changes methodically and be patient. If stability is a concern use Debian.
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Dralnu
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paul.marsh wrote:
Well...

As I see it you pay a price in time for the benefit of configurability; you take on the role of quality assurance for the binaries on your system.

I must admit I have been extremely frustrated at times by gentoo because I am impatient and want things to work now!

But you can't have your cake and eat it too ;) It takes time to assure quality and limited resources are going to cater to the majority - which results in a less flexible (but more stable) distribution.

I have been using Gentoo as my primary system for almost six months now and before that I had quite limited experience (not using day to day) with debian and redhat. I really like Gentoo. I have not been around long enough to get a feel for management admittedly, but I my expectations are not very high - people give up their time and that must be appreciated.

Once I figured out how to use portage properly I have not had a problem. Make changes methodically and be patient. If stability is a concern use Debian.


++

If you want something thats no-nonsense and (if memory serves) pretty much error-free, try Debian Stable, although its dated. Unstable from my knowledge is fairly stable itself, though, so, its up to you...
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just something in noticed about the "bye-bye threads"...

Almost all of the people who started these threads were users who started in 2003, and most of those who bashed them were newer users. Having been a Gentoo user for just more than a year, I can't say anything, but perhaps when these people started, Gentoo was quite a different distro than it is now. I think they might actually see some bad changes that we don't see. I think their disappointment in the current state of Gentoo might actually be completely valid.

Just an observation.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deeply agree with the original post, too bad that eight out of ten Gentooists are a "bit" sensitive to criticism. Now bash me with clubs please.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok
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