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Knieper
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:29 am    Post subject: Re: Nazi / German 3rd Reich symbols on Gentoo Forums Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:
The Nazis directly and indirectly murdered 30 to 35 million people in Europe. Six millions of them Jews.

1.5 million armenians killed by turks
2.5 million killed by Pol Pot in Cambodia
30 million killed by Stalin
60 million by Mao
millions by church, Kim il Sung...

Quote:

We don't make a difference when answering their support requests, when chatting with them or arguing with them. We don't care if someone's skin is black, white or whatever else. These differences don't matter here.
Why should we allow people who would like it otherwise to show Nazi symbols here?

Why should we care about their opinions?

Quote:

- Here in Germany webmasters are generally responsible for the content of websites they're linking to (madness but that's how it currently is). Nazi symbols must not be displayed unless for educational purposes in Germany and you can be severely fined if you do otherwise. So if someone puts a link to the Gentoo forums on his site, he might get into real trouble here. It has already happened.

That's unqualified bullshit. Link to any national socialist site, just distance yourself from the content and embed it in a "documentation about current events". (LG Stuttgart: 15.07.05, 38 Ns 2 Js - 21471/02)

We don't need a self-appointed upholder of moral standards with addiction to censorship. 1968 is over.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:44 am    Post subject: Re: Nazi / German 3rd Reich symbols on Gentoo Forums Reply with quote

Knieper wrote:
That's unqualified bullshit. Link to any national socialist site, just distance yourself from the content and embed it in a "documentation about current events". (LG Stuttgart: 15.07.05, 38 Ns 2 Js - 21471/02)


As you probably know very well, the case against Mr. Freude unfortunately wasn't that easy.

Knieper wrote:
We don't need a self-appointed upholder of moral standards with addiction to censorship. 1968 is over.


Read about "Zensur" in de.wikipedia.org, please.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
Philantrop wrote:
Freedom of speech has its limits.


That is your BIG mistake!


True, that quotation is wrong, if you think that free speech has limits then it is your problem. Fortunatelly, where I live, I can say anything, and no one will shut me up.

lefsha wrote:
You Germans not able to live without rules! You need rules for everything!
You will definitly die without rules. I agree. It's your special mentality,
but, please, allow to other nations do like they want and can.


But this one is wrong too.

There are persons, and not nations. I could also say that the USA sucks, we have a lot of reasons today to think that... But I will not, cause I know some good people there, and have a couple of very good friends in the USA. There are good persons in all the countries around the world. And yes, needing rules is not bad either, the problem is when rules are made to restrict the natural rights of a person, intead of being made to guard those rights.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:57 am    Post subject: Re: Nazi / German 3rd Reich symbols on Gentoo Forums Reply with quote

Knieper wrote:

30 million killed by Stalin


That is lie! And I hate that lie!

Here you will found the plot of developing of russian population in 20th century.
(the first plot from the top)
http://www.situation.ru/app/rs/books/whitebook/gr_all.html#hdr_2

Please find the Second World War there and the current situation!!!

Still never heard that some one said that Gorbatchev, Eltsin and Putin killed
more people then in II World War but it's closer to the truth then this lie about Stalin.

Yes I hate him. And yes he killed a lot of people. But not 30 Millions.
It could not be possible!

All you know about that is propaganda!

There are some estimations that it was killed about 100 000
and about 1 000 000 was in barracoons. Yes it's quite a lot.
But at the present time there are more people in Russia in prisons, then that.


It's nothing to compare how much people was killed during the II World War.

Only in Whiterussia was completly burned out with inhabitants > 600 villages.


So I would never put Hitler and Stalin on the same level!!!
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

6thpink wrote:

lefsha wrote:
You Germans not able to live without rules! You need rules for everything!
You will definitly die without rules. I agree. It's your special mentality,
but, please, allow to other nations do like they want and can.


But this one is wrong too.

There are persons, and not nations.
I could also say that the USA sucks, we have a lot of reasons today to think that... But I will not, cause I know some good people there, and have a couple of very good friends in the USA. There are good persons in all the countries around the world. And yes, needing rules is not bad either, the problem is when rules are made to restrict the natural rights of a person, intead of being made to guard those rights.


Once again. I didn't said anything bad about germans, but the truth!
How long you've been in germany to may say whether I'm right or not?
I know also some Americans from USA they say same things.
I'm ever silent about russians in Germnay...

So, please, keep in mind that is nothing bad about germans.
Every nation has some characteristic. Every nation is different.
And it's nothing bad with that.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yabbadabbadont wrote:
There is a *very* simple solution. If you don't want to see such things, don't look.

From the user's profile setttings of the Gentoo forums:

Code:
Show avatars in threads:       Yes   * No


Problem solved.


The Best Answer! Thank you. You are more clever then most of us.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just ban the Third Reich flag, SS symbols and the Reichskriegs flag
either way this is good info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazi
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

for what it is worth, on principle I believe in uncompromising free speech. Let people open their mouths and demonstrate what fools they are. However, a given staff has the perogative to run their forums however they so desire. In my opinion, forums are private. You have to register and agree to follow a given set of rules. Forums are not avenues of free speech, but rather a moderated community.

I left the forums I was most active on and loved the most because they had a clearly stated rule forbidding racism, and then allowed a member to repeatedly make various racist remarks. The moderators didn't want to touch the issue and this guy kept saying things like, "Jews and Americans deserve to die because they are both inherently evil", etc.

Again, I respect that people have the right to run their forums how they wish. I chose never to belong to those forums again, and to boycott the companies products since they won't take a stand on racism.

And for what it is worth, I can understand someone perceiving the Catholic Church as villians in history. They propogated slavery, war and ignorance. The Pope made an official decision to ignore the Holocaust. They forbid people from reading the Bible, while spreading lies about what it supposedly said, taking money as a direct means as the entrance into heaven not only for yourself, but for your relatives.

Despite that, a symbol is just that. It symbolizes something. They can mean very different things to most people, but often symbols have a universal/archetypical view that we can all agree upon. The swastika, regardless of previous incarnations, is currently remembered and seen as the symbol for the Nazi party and the atrocities in WWII. The cross and similiar symbols I would argue stand for faith and salvation to most people. Even if you don't believe in Christ, if you see a cross, you're likely to think of Christ upon seeing one. I don't believe that cross or other Christian symbols directly relate to atrocities committed by the Catholic Church, especially considering that Catholics eschew the traditional cross and prefer a crucifix specifically.

I don't believe it to be a fair analogy in the least to suggest that banning Nazi symbols must be followed by banning Christian symbols. I do however understand the point that people are trying to make (and perhaps failing to do so) that once free speech is compromised on any level, it ceases to exist. But again, forums are private. If you do not wish to agree with the terms of a forum community, then you don't have to be a member. As a human, you should have the right to free expression and speech. But we shouldn't have to tolerate hate in a private forum.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:

Despite that, a symbol is just that. It symbolizes something. They can mean very different things to most people, but often symbols have a universal/archetypical view that we can all agree upon. The swastika, regardless of previous incarnations, is currently remembered and seen as the symbol for the Nazi party and the atrocities in WWII. The cross and similiar symbols I would argue stand for faith and salvation to most people. Even if you don't believe in Christ, if you see a cross, you're likely to think of Christ upon seeing one. I don't believe that cross or other Christian symbols directly relate to atrocities committed by the Catholic Church, especially considering that Catholics eschew the traditional cross and prefer a crucifix specifically.

I don't believe it to be a fair analogy in the least to suggest that banning Nazi symbols must be followed by banning Christian symbols. I do however understand the point that people are trying to make (and perhaps failing to do so) that once free speech is compromised on any level, it ceases to exist. But again, forums are private. If you do not wish to agree with the terms of a forum community, then you don't have to be a member. As a human, you should have the right to free expression and speech. But we shouldn't have to tolerate hate in a private forum.


Ok, lets resume these. Boths philosophies have:
-Slayed people at their discrection.
-Used others people resources, stuff, and the people themselves as slaves to their purposed.
-Imposed ideas and deliberatelly cut down all the freedoms (including the freedom of speech).

In addition, the cross and the swastica are two symbols, with a noble origin, that have been used by bad persons.

I fail to see why they should be considered differently. They both were equally noble things on the origin, and were corrupted by mad men. Exactly the same. Just that people like one more than the other for any reason. I cant get your point there. Sorry.

EDIT: By the way, I think that all people here acknoledge the forums rules, we are just stating that we do not want to settle this precedent, because banning one thing, is the same that opening the door for people to complain against a lot of other things. Really, you fail to see my point, you see to clearly in your mind how bad hitler was (and I agree) but you cannot see how bad the religion is in the eyes of other persons. If you ban this things, religios will be next,and then, anything representing the USA, as a lot of countries are in dislike of some of the methods that the USA ruler uses nowadays. Then we can ban jew signs, and then, anything that sounds like homosexual. We can then ban also people that dont write english well, cause it will be too painfull to see such a bad writing style in the eyes of english purists.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:
Even following your logic, Neddy, there's a difference: AFAIK there's no religion that conspires to overthrow democracy, take away personal freedom and kill those thinking differently. .


you just concetrated the history of the catholic church in one sentence.

Hm, and you could also say, that islam tries the same.

So, lets bann all forms of symbols?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nimwa2 wrote:
just ban the Third Reich flag, SS symbols and the Reichskriegs flag
either way this is good info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazi


but the Reichkriegsflagge was a flag of the Kaiserreich (1871-1918) and not the Nazis (I know, lots of neo-Nazis use it - which shows, how stupid this suckers are).
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

6thpink wrote:
Ok, lets resume these. Boths philosophies have:
-Slayed people at their discrection.
-Used others people resources, stuff, and the people themselves as slaves to their purposed.
-Imposed ideas and deliberatelly cut down all the freedoms (including the freedom of speech).


I'm going to argue semantics for a moment. The practice of the Catholic Church was to remove freedoms. They wanted political power. The philosophy of Christianity does not state that you should ever lose freedom of speech. Christ was cruficied for sedition, effectively he was a matyr for free speech.

Quote:
In addition, the cross and the swastica are two symbols, with a noble origin, that have been used by bad persons.


We can certianly agree on this.

Quote:
I fail to see why they should be considered differently. They both were equally noble things on the origin, and were corrupted by mad men. Exactly the same. Just that people like one more than the other for any reason. I cant get your point there. Sorry.


The world isn't fair. My point is not how and why the symbols should be viewed the way they are. My point is that the two symbols are currently viewed by the masses a certain way. My belief is that despite the atrocities of the Church (which I don't deny) the cross still evokes images of Christ, rather than the atrocities for most people. The swastika evokes images of genocide.

I'm not sure if you've ever attended a Catholic Mass. I like to study various religions, and despite not being Catholic, I've attended mass. One thing I found interesting was the Apostolic Creed. During the service, you effectively swear allegience to the Holy Roman Church. The Church itself is the symbol. The Pope is the symbol. The term Catholic Church is the focus. In all these things, Christ and the message of the Bible is downplayed. The Church didn't allow anyone to read the Bible. Hell, they gave mass in Latin for ages, while forbidding the public from being educated in Latin. People didn't even know what was being said in a given service. The cross represents Protestants moreso than Catholics, again because the Catholic Church prefers the crucifix. And even so, the focus always shifts back to the Church itself and the Pope. In Christianity, the ideal is that Christ is the mediator between man and God. In Catholicism, the Church is the mediator between man and God. The Church even replaced the cross with rosary beads to an extent.

Conversely, the Nazi party put their stamp everywhere.

Lastly, I think that whatever is the most powerful and lasting image often outweighs and displaces any previous connotation. The swastika used to be a symbol of peace I believe. But you're not going to think of peace when you see one.

With a cross, the most powerful association is that of Christ. The concept of Christ is a very polarizing one. The concept of accepting the existance of God, and that the price of sins being death is a very polarizing one. These are very strong images, and jarring concepts. Furthermore, despite what actually transpired, most people don't view The Church as being villians in history. When the Pope died, the entire world stopped to mourn. For whatever reason, history has given The Church a pass.

You seem preoccupied with how the symbols OUGHT to be viewed. How they are actually viewed is another story.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: Nazi / German 3rd Reich symbols on Gentoo Forums Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
Knieper wrote:

30 million killed by Stalin


That is lie! And I hate that lie!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Stalin
Quote:

Regardless, it appears that a minimum of around 10 million surplus deaths (4 million by repression and 6 million from famine) are attributable to the regime, with a number of recent books suggesting a probable figure of somewhere between 15 to 20 million. Adding 6-8 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a figure of between 15 and 17 million victims. Pioneering researcher Robert Conquest[13], meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million. Others, however, continue to maintain that their earlier much higher estimates are correct.


Quote:

All you know about that is propaganda!

There are some estimations that it was killed about 100 000
and about 1 000 000 was in barracoons. Yes it's quite a lot.
But at the present time there are more people in Russia in prisons, then that.


That's nice propaganda.

Quote:

It's nothing to compare how much people was killed during the II World War.

[...]

So I would never put Hitler and Stalin on the same level!!!


Why not? It's the same shit just in red (ok - with more victims of stalinism). Do you know the number of victims if Stalin had attacked Europe first?

A nice (german) article:
Quote:

Bogdan Musial:
„Wir werden den ganzen Kapitalismus am Kragen packen“
Sowjetische Vorbereitungen zum Angriffskrieg in den dreißiger und Anfang der vierziger Jahre
Zeitschrift für Geschichtswissenschaft, 1/2006, ISSN 0044-2828


Philantrop wrote:
Read about "Zensur" in de.wikipedia.org, please.


Read about "Meinungsfreiheit" in de.wikipedia.org, please. Every attempt to outlaw opinions and symbols is stupid and useless.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are Gentoo users and members of the forums from all over the world, we have to live together in the real world, even if we don't make a very good job of it at the moment. The forums reflect that diversity - they are a microcosm of the real world.

The way to addess all extreme behaviour and opinion is by education, not censorship. Unfortunately many individuals and political bodies adopt extremes for their own selfish short term gain. They have no interest in contributing to the solution of world problems because they won't be around to enjoy the benefit of the solution.

It falls to all forum members as citezens of our world microcosm, to discorage extremes of all kinds and to attempt to educate the perpertartors, just as in the real world. The forum mods and admins can lend some weight to the discoragement/education and in very rare cases the admis can impose a ban.

Thats not the same as having a policy of banning any partitcular symbologly - Its a policy of tolerance and education which is what actually works in the real world. There are lots of real world examples of what happens when that fails - they are called wars.

There are no quick fixes - education takes a generation.

Just in case its not clear, as an individual I'm against a policy of banning anything outright. As a mod on these forums, I will follow up with posters any offensive material (even if I don't see the offence) brought to my attention - thats a part of the educational process I've refered to in this post.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddie Izzard wrote:
Pol Pot killed one point seven million Cambodians, died under house arrest, well done there. Stalin killed many millions, died in his bed, aged seventy-two, well done indeed. And the reason we let them get away with it is they killed their own people. And we're sort of fine with that. Hitler killed people next door. Oh, stupid man. After a couple of years we won’t stand for that, will we?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Nazi / German 3rd Reich symbols on Gentoo Forums Reply with quote

Knieper wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Stalin


I'm very sorry for you, but there is nothing about 30 mln here.
Please try to prove your crazy idea or just get rid of this.

Knieper wrote:

That's nice propaganda.


That is not!

It is something wrong with you...
For you 100 000 people isn't much enough to call someone murderer...

You need millions or at best tens or hundreds of millions...
Even if it is not possible to achive...

Knieper wrote:

Why not? It's the same shit just in red (ok - with more victims of stalinism). Do you know the number of victims if Stalin had attacked Europe first?


Is not the same shit. If you never learned history it is not my problem at all.

And I hate such things, "what would happen if..." Stalin attacked Europe first...

What would happen if you will start to kill people on the street?
So you are murderer, right?

Knieper wrote:

A nice (german) article:
Bogdan Musial:
„Wir werden den ganzen Kapitalismus am Kragen packen“
Sowjetische Vorbereitungen zum Angriffskrieg in den dreißiger und Anfang der vierziger Jahre
Zeitschrift für Geschichtswissenschaft, 1/2006, ISSN 0044-2828


Look at this ! Nazis are still alive... Even without of any svastic... ;-)

Knieper wrote:

Philantrop wrote:
Read about "Zensur" in de.wikipedia.org, please.

Read about "Meinungsfreiheit" in de.wikipedia.org, please. Every attempt to outlaw opinions and symbols is stupid and useless.


Hey! Please answer to person who wrote thing not to me...
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:

You Germans not able to live without rules! You need rules for everything!
You will definitly die without rules. I agree. It's your special mentality,
but, please, allow to other nations do like they want and can.


OMG - This is so stupid.
That's like saying that you Russians do always need a dictator that misuses his power (like Putin), because of your special mentality.
You are just repeating some fucked up stereotypes which are as far away from the truth than Sankt-Petersburg is from Hawaii. :roll:
What exactly qualifies you for being an expert for Germans?

I am against any kind of censorship. I think this thread is utterly useless, because there has already been another thread in which the policy of the Gentoo forums on the subject got quite obvious.

Philantrop:
I can understand you point of view, because I'm also German and everybody here has been conditioned to hate and despise these symbols. But by purging the symbols you won't purge the idea and the idea is the thing that is dangerous. Even though we purged these symbols from our German society there are still a few neo-nazis around. We won't get rid of them by regulating things more. And after all this is a international forum where German laws won't apply.

But this thread makes me curious how people would react on a avatar which is praising Al-Qaida, the Ku-Klux-Klan or Bill Gates. ;)
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Nazi / German 3rd Reich symbols on Gentoo Forums Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
Knieper wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Stalin


I'm very sorry for you, but there is nothing about 30 mln here.
Please try to prove your crazy idea or just get rid of this.


Again:
Quote:

Pioneering researcher Robert Conquest[13], meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million. Others, however, continue to maintain that their earlier much higher estimates are correct.


But mostly these numbers forget thousands of killed german, polish, ukrainian, russian... civilians, of killed german war prisoners, cossacks and russian war prisoners (in my hometown the red army killed all russian(!) war prisoners, because they worked for germany).

Quote:

Knieper wrote:

That's nice propaganda.


That is not!

It is something wrong with you...
For you 100 000 people isn't much enough to call someone murderer...


For me one victim is more then enough. But I hate people which defame victims.

Quote:
Is not the same shit. If you never learned history it is not my problem at all.


I study history for years, esp. WW I and WW II.

Quote:
And I hate such things, "what would happen if..." Stalin attacked Europe first...

What would happen if you will start to kill people on the street?


That was not my intention. If someone plans to attack Western Europe and anotherone plans to attack East Europe. The second one starts the war. Why is number one better?

Quote:
Look at this ! Nazis are still alive... Even without of any svastic... ;-)


Strange denotation for german, english, polish, russian... scientists. Could it be that your history knowledge goes back to russian Cold War propaganda literature?! Pretty funny.

Quote:

Knieper wrote:

Philantrop wrote:
Read about "Zensur" in de.wikipedia.org, please.

Read about "Meinungsfreiheit" in de.wikipedia.org, please. Every attempt to outlaw opinions and symbols is stupid and useless.


Hey! Please answer to person who wrote thing not to me...


Hey! Please learn to read quotes.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what i actually don't understand is why some people are trying to restrict the freedom of speech of others while occupying it for themselfs.
one can't simply rectify "freedom of speech" according to his/her personal point of view as it makes the idea "freedom of speech" pointless.

maybe the threadstarter likes to understand this at some point...
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toskala, I will never understand why someone would want to be able to fly a Nazi flag. The precedent argument is provably wrong - or do you honestly feel restricted in your right to voice your opinion in Germany where you must not display Nazi propaganda publicly?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the question is not if i feel restricted or not.
its a more general problem.
one cant honestly propagate the phrase "freedom of opinion / freedom of speech" to anybody and then restrict the form of expression of those who say/express themselfs in a way that may be immoral or at least be questionable to somebody else.

in my opinion the general right of free speech is more significant than the personal feeling of being disgusted by ones utterance.
in fact the "morally disgusted persons" are responsible to elucidate these persons through education not by restrictions.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:
toskala, I will never understand why someone would want to be able to fly a Nazi flag. The precedent argument is provably wrong


1) Because it's just a symbol - pure syntax. The interpretation is different for every individual and everybody is offended at other symbols. So for a common denominator we forbid all symbols and graphics?!

2) What's the difference between offending pictures and offending sentences? Let's forbid all opinions?
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Philantrop
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) You know what organisation it stands for. It's not syntax, it's semantics. And you know perfectly well that flying that flag is forbidden where we both live. Does that bother you? We do not discuss forbidding arbitratry symbols.

2) If there was open Nazi propaganda on these forums: Yes, I'd love to see it forbidden and the author banned. Again: This is not about any opinions but about Nazi propaganda.

Nazi stuff is all we're discussing here. Please remember that.
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amne
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:

2) If there was open Nazi propaganda on these forums: Yes, I'd love to see it forbidden and the author banned. Again: This is not about any opinions but about Nazi propaganda.

Nazi stuff is all we're discussing here. Please remember that.


No it isn't. The moment you abolish Nazi symbols you may as well abolish other symbols and opinions as well. That's the problem.
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toskala
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

today we are discussing about "nazi stuff" and what is to be discussed tomorrow? lets face it: this question is more fundamental than it seems on the first look.
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