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curtis119
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:
playfool wrote:
to please you and biggots like you is any different from banning opposing political thoughts..


Leave out the personal attacks and I'll gladly keep discussing this with you. Otherwise I'll exercise my freedom of speech in not answering to such attacks.


Let's do try to keep things civil.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

playfool wrote:
oh and amne, you don't have to be american to appriciate freedom of speech - in fact we backwards europeans do it just fine thank you.


Heh, i guess there was a slight misunderstanding here. What i meant to point out was the US Americans seem to have a special relation to their freedom of speech as it's one of their most basic principles.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:
amne wrote:
Philantrop wrote:
So why is it so difficult to just make it a rule not to use it?

We'd also need to make a rule not to use everything else that offends someone else. In the long run we'd be ending turning off avatars anyway.

No, just outlaw what's already outlawed anyway in some of the European countries.

Thats exactly the issue. We are a worldwide community.
At the end of the day we'd need to outlaw north korean symbols too as we'd need to censor anything against native americans, the south-african white against black stuff, need to obey the newly egyptian censorship of press etc.
Normally i'm keeping myself out of political disscussions in the forums but from my point of view we should look at the issue(s) you describe here with a good common sense and otherwise hold up the princples of free speech - censorship helps noone lastely as history tells.
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amne
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:
That's why I referred to one subject only that is universally recognised as being one of the worst ever. We're simply not discussing anything else here but the Nationalsocialsm and its symbols. Therefor, it's not a matter of outlawing everything but just one topic.

So, killing in the name of everyone else but the Nazis is fine and those symbols may still be used?

Philantrop wrote:

Or would you rather explain users from Israel why you accept Nazi symbols as avatars? Don't you think it might really hurt people who lost relatives in Nazi Germany?

Sure, and at the same time i'll have a Hisbollah-related avatar, which is fine according to your logic. I'm pretty sure that won't hurt their feelings.

Philantrop wrote:
No, just outlaw what's already outlawed anyway in some of the European countries.

It's not illegal in the USA. So what makes European laws more important than US American ones, especially for a forum that resides in the USA?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a privately owned forum, so there's no right to speech here. Whatever the admins want to do they can do.

I think, however, at the very least, the forums should be kept safe for work (e.g., no nudity). Besides that though, I think avatars should be left alone.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amne wrote:
Philantrop wrote:
That's why I referred to one subject only that is universally recognised as being one of the worst ever. We're simply not discussing anything else here but the Nationalsocialsm and its symbols. Therefor, it's not a matter of outlawing everything but just one topic.

So, killing in the name of everyone else but the Nazis is fine and those symbols may still be used?


No, of course not. I'd love to see all hate-mongering "philosophies" banned but the Nationalsocialism is one of the most prominent among those and its symbols can easily be identified. It wouldn't hurt anyone if they were gone.

amne wrote:
Philantrop wrote:

Or would you rather explain users from Israel why you accept Nazi symbols as avatars? Don't you think it might really hurt people who lost relatives in Nazi Germany?

Sure, and at the same time i'll have a Hisbollah-related avatar, which is fine according to your logic. I'm pretty sure that won't hurt their feelings.


The question is what's the greater evil. At least in numbers, the answer is crystal clear. Just because we can't outlaw all evil, we cannot outlaw the one that is universally recognised as such?

amne wrote:
Philantrop wrote:
No, just outlaw what's already outlawed anyway in some of the European countries.

It's not illegal in the USA. So what makes European laws more important than US American ones, especially for a forum that resides in the USA?


Exactly the fact that you mentioned: It's not illegal there but here. So for those of us living in Europe it is safer not to have such symbols. That doesn't make those laws more important on a global scale but it makes sense acknowledge the fact they exist.

I still fail to see the loss if Nazi symbols (and only those) were outlawed here. Would it hurt anyone here? I don't think so.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amne wrote:
playfool wrote:
oh and amne, you don't have to be american to appriciate freedom of speech - in fact we backwards europeans do it just fine thank you.


Heh, i guess there was a slight misunderstanding here. What i meant to point out was the US Americans seem to have a special relation to their freedom of speech as it's one of their most basic principles.


I struggle to think of a civilized country that doesn't have freedom of speech incorporated deeply into their laws - e.g. what would be the danish constitution specifically mentions freedom of speech as a right of the people.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm, I never seen any 'nazi symbols' here. But maybe I did not look hard enough for them?

Some people always try to annoy other people. They use controversial nicks&sigs, are rude or disgusting.

Best way to deal with that: ignore it.

If nobody reacts, it becomes boring pretty fast and at some point the brain may kick in and the person realizes its stupidity.


BUT:

a swastika in itself is nothing bad.

It was always a symbol of luck and for a lot of cultures it is still a good symbol. Yes, the nazis corrupted it. But that is no reason to get mad about a swastika without knowing the background why it is used.

It is used, because the user comes from a cultural background where this sign is still a good one (most parts of Asia) or it is used, because the user wants to provoke?

Either way - best way to deal with it, is to ignore it. And if the person starts to blabber nazi-nonesense, a good kick in the ass, ridiculing him about his historical none-knowledge (because if he knew anything about history, he could not blabber nanzi-nonsense without being ashamed of himself) is the right reaction.
Or ignore him. Such people go away pretty fast if you just ignore them.

But this 'Zwergenaufstand' is exactly what such a person wants. Do nothing than having a controversial avatar and get a lot of attention. So best way to deal with that:

stop talking about it and stop this thread right now.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop,

Quote:
I still fail to see the loss if Nazi symbols (and only those) were outlawed here. Would it hurt anyone here? I don't think so.

The problem is that banning these symbols or any symbols for that matter, would set a very dangerous precendent.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neddy, what's dangerous in banning the symbols of a murderous organisation that brought nothing but destruction and war to the world?

Yes, it would be a precedent but if anything like the Nazis arose again I don't see the problem with banning their symbols as well. The fact is: Currently there is nothing like the Nazis. Or did I miss WW3?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it would settle a very dangerous precedent.

Censure is never a trivial thing, regardless of what people think.

Then, anyone could say that 6thpink sounds too gay, and that such a name should not be permitted cause he is an homophobic person and thinks that homosexuallity is not a natural thing and s/he dont want their childen to see such a gay name in a public forum. And dont say "stay on topic, please". I am on topic, and I think that sitting such a precedent will allow people for continuos complains about being annoyed because there are persons that talk and think in a different manner. For me, if someone thinks different, that is fine, if he or she starts hailing hitler and killing persons, then we can kick him/her. In the while, the persons are innocent until the oppositte is probed.

Censorship is dangerous, and should always be avoided. Dudes, those symbols are a reality, to pretend that they do not exist by hiding them does not make the people more or less nazi.

EDIT: C'mon people, we are a free comunity, a group of persons that like free software and that like the principles of the free software, I fail to see how censorship is compatible with our philosophic background.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:
Neddy, what's dangerous in banning the symbols of a murderous organisation that brought nothing but destruction and war to the world?

Yes, it would be a precedent but if anything like the Nazis arose again I don't see the problem with banning their symbols as well. Currently there is nothing like the Nazis. Or did I miss WW3?

In terms of being offended by symbols, there is quite a lot. Think about the offense caused to Muslims by the cartoons of Mohammed. You could argue that as many people have been offended by that recently than have been offended by Nazi symbols, and so if we banned Nazi symbols we would also have to ban depictions of Mohammed. And so it continues...
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop,

Its the precedent thats the problem, not the ban.

Orgainised religion has killed many more people than any political group - so their symbols shoould be banned first, following your logic.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even following your logic, Neddy, there's a difference: AFAIK there's no religion that conspires to overthrow democracy, take away personal freedom and kill those thinking differently. The Nazis (and those who follow their "philosophy" today) did.

We do not have to accept and welcome those who want to take away all that in our community. We can defend us against them and banning their symbols is a perfectly valid way to do that.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

6thpink wrote:
EDIT: C'mon people, we are a free comunity, a group of persons that like free software and that like the principles of the free software, I fail to see how censorship is compatible with our philosophic background.


Yes, we are and my philosophy does not allow me to accept views which's ultimate goal is to take all that away from me.

In Germany, the public display of Nazi symbols is generally forbidden (there are exceptions, i. e. if it's clear that it's for educational purposes in contrast to promotional ones) because we have learned that we don't have to accept those movements that want to go back to a Nazi regime and remove our constitutional rights. We can and we do fight them.

The same is true for the Gentoo Forums.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note that this is *not* a personal attack, and is posted only as an **absurd** example of what can happen if the admins start down the slippery slope of wholesale censorship.

Philantrop, you want to ban all things Nazi related, however weak the connection. Since the Nazi's were German, I find all Germans offensive to my sensibilities. Therefore I propose that we ban all things German in the forums. Especially the German language sub-forum. After all, it is probably just a breeding ground for the kind of thinking that led to the rise of the Nazi's in the first place.

Granted, the preceding is an unrealistic, and totally absurd proposal. However, it is the logical consequence of banning any one form of speech, when taken to extremes. If you start banning any speech, you open the gates to banning all but the officially sanctioned speech. From what I remember of my history lessons, that is one of the first things the Nazi's did when they stampeded the German people into giving them power.

Ok, that's all I have to say on this subject. I'm going to have to exercise my free will and just stop reading OTW. After all, it would just be terrible if I were to read something that might offend me.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't this thread a dup? http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-406928-highlight-nazi+symbols.html
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tenobok,

yes that thread is a dupe, but since it's locked, the discussion couldn't continue there.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yabbadabbadont, I understand what you mean but there's one mistake in your summary which otherwise would be perfectly valid: I don't mean to ban anything that might be Nazi-related but the stuff that unmistakebly is, i. e. the flag.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:
Even following your logic, Neddy, there's a difference: AFAIK there's no religion that conspires to overthrow democracy, take away personal freedom and kill those thinking differently. The Nazis (and those who follow their "philosophy" today) did.

We do not have to accept and welcome those who want to take away all that in our community. We can defend us against them and banning their symbols is a perfectly valid way to do that.


That is not totally correct, and it depends a lot on how you interpretate things that happens everyday.

In a lot of countries, the catholicism is deeply tied to the politics, including the USA, just to put a example. And remember that the "In god we trust" in the bills. Some of us think that the so-called democracy in the USA is far from our idea of democracy. So, that is something that is can not be given for sure, and depends on opinions. Some thinks that the freedom of speech, the privacy, and a lot of other things are part of a democratic system, and are seriously screwed in the USA.

A lot of musilm countries are also not democracies, but theocracies that politically speacking are almost dictatorships. So, your statement is not correct at all.

And yes, religions have killed, and still nowadays, kill, people who think differently.

Remember medieval religious wars amongst musilms and christians. Still today, in Afrika there are hundreds or small religious wars around, so, dont tell me that crap. The spanish holy inquisition of the kings Ferdinand and Elisabeth the Catholics (as themselves named them) burned and killed a lot of people for just not being of the same religion, and the Catholic Church in general have done a lot of things that are far more reprobable (or at least the same) that the things that Hitler, Himler and Menguele did in the reich. So, stop changing facts to fit your convenience, please.

If we ban nazi symbols from the forums I will also beg to remove any christian related stuff from here as well. So, here we are the problem... To ban or not to ban.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:08 am    Post subject: Re: Nazi / German 3rd Reich symbols on Gentoo Forums Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:
I've recently stumbled upon Nazi symbols on the Gentoo Forums and asked


Firstly I should mention here , that Svastic is not completely Nazi symbol!
If I remember correctly it comes from India...

I would suggest to take it more easy. "Ein Symbol ist nur ein Symbol".

The more important things is what people do.

The hunting for Nazi symbols is completely useless.
People are smart enough to develop any other symbols.
And you will be not able to forbid every comma!

I'm very happy, that here there are no german rules!

Please, think that nationalism against something or someone is the same like
nationalism for something or someone!!! It's stays nationalism in any case!

The method very often used in Germany to get things out of life by forbidden them
is very dumb! How I hate this here!..

If all people would wear the white T-Shirts and not black, the World wouldn't be better then now.
Really!..
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Philantrop,

The forums are international. Other national groups may feel the same way about their former dictatorships.
e.g. Russians and Stalin


Not even former... Many of us feel the same about present... sometime more then about former...
:-)
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:

I totally agree. But uncritically using Nazi symbols is not the best idea either. We can't make neo-Nazis change their mind here but we could at least stop them from spreading their poison here.


Please keep in mind, that the person who use Nazi symbol could be not neo-Nazi at all!
And the reverse situation could be also truth!

So just forget about your idea... It's kind of friendly suggestion. ;-)

P.S. Und noch ein Vorschlag für dich. Guck dein Fernseher nicht so oft...
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm new here but I just had to partake in this discussion. People have the right to choose which image they want for their avatar. Who are you to decide that a swastika is bad and represents evil? I'm offended that you started a topic about such nonsense. Do you cry when you see the Nazi flag? Do you get emotional? Does it change how you live your life? Get over it. If my neighbor was flying a Nazi flag out on his porch that's his right. I don't necessarily agree, but hey I want to be able to walk outside and fly whatever flag I want on whatever day of the week I want. Freedom is good. Just my opinion :)
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:
Freedom of speech has its limits.


That is your BIG mistake!

It looks like much worse then any Nazis symbols altogether...

So please stop, before your going to forbid me to say anything.


You Germans not able to live without rules! You need rules for everything!
You will definitly die without rules. I agree. It's your special mentality,
but, please, allow to other nations do like they want and can.
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