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Kensai
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rane wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stutthof_concentration_camp

If this is the type of freedom Americans want to fight for, i pity them.

In my opinion we should ban everybody who spreads nazism or communism in here.

Totally agreed. :wink:
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brullonulla wrote:
Freedom of speech exists to protect speech that is provoking and that stirs up controversy, more than for protecting speech about the glitter on ponies.


But OMG ponies are not allowed as avatar, because they were found too gay and promoting homosexuality is illegal in several countries throughout world :twisted:
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occ
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

curtis119 wrote:

ps. If we were to start banning symbols I would INSIST that all religious iconography of any sort to be banned as well. Since religions are also responsible for millions of deaths around the world. FAR FAR FAR FAR more deaths than the nazis could have ever dreamed about. And the worst part is that Religions are STILL killing people in the name $DIETY to this very day. Hitler died 50+ years ago.....


Amen to that ;)
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occ
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:
Even following your logic, Neddy, there's a difference: AFAIK there's no religion that conspires to overthrow democracy, take away personal freedom and kill those thinking differently.


You don't 'know' much then...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm
"Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers."

And that's just one out of long,long list, and that list involve all and every organized religion. Fredoom and religion are oxymoronic concept. Religious organization don;t give a damn about 'democracy' per say. they just care about their 'market-share'. Iwhen they think a dictatorship can help they will embrass it without reservation... (and vice-versa... thousand of years of history illustrate that zillions times).

BTW, The roman Catholic Church signed a Concordat with your country, that, I belive, is still in force. Do you care to remind us who Pius XI signed it with ?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

occ wrote:
You don't 'know' much then...
[...]
BTW, The roman Catholic Church signed a Concordat with your country, that, I belive, is still in force. Do you care to remind us who Pius XI signed it with ?


Eugenio Maria Giuseppe Giovanni Pacelli became Pope Pius XI on March 2nd, 1939. The concordat was signed on July 20th, 1933. So Pius XI didn't sign it at all. On the German side it was Franz von Papen. Later, as Pope, in 1937 Pius XI published the encyclica "Mit brennender Sorge". Not to forgot about the "Bekennende Christen" who resisted the NS dictatorship.
Or Dietrich Bonhoefer who was murdered by the Nazis for his activities against them.

Anyway, if you don't see a difference between the Nazis and churches there's no point discussing with you.
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think4urs11
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

occ wrote:
BTW, The roman Catholic Church signed a Concordat with your country, that, I belive, is still in force. Do you care to remind us who Pius XI signed it with ?

8O well informed; its not undisputedly but still valid and has some very interesting details listed in it.
But to be precise it was Eugenio Pacelli (the later Pius XII) who was mainly involved in 'developing' this thing.

Achille Ambrogio Damiano Ratti (Pius XI - 1922-02-12 till 1939-02-10) 'just' signed it.
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occ
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:

Eugenio Maria Giuseppe Giovanni Pacelli became Pope Pius XI on March 2nd, 1939. [...] Later, as Pope, in 1937 Pius XI"


So he wasn't pope until 1939 (one month after his death), but _later_ in 1937 AS POPE :-).
In you revisionist haste, you stumbled on roman numeral....

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_ss33co.htm
"July 20, 1933
His Holiness Pope Pius XI and the President of the German Reich, moved by a common desire to consolidate and enhance the friendly relations existing between the Holy See and the German Reich,"

I checked, even in the German version of wikepedia they got the numbers right:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pius_XI._%28Papst%29
Pius XI. (* 31. Mai 1857 in Desio (Lombardei), † 10. Februar 1939 in Rom) - bürgerlicher Name Achille Ambrogio Damiano Ratti - war Papst von 1922 bis 1939

As far as Pie XI philosophy:
http://www.quebecoislibre.org/031220-13.htm

The catholic church has worked very hard since then to 'erase' that embarassing bad business move. But, hey, insight is 20/20, the poor guy did what he thought was best for his own business... Some time you bet on the wrong horse.

Quote:

Anyway, if you don't see a difference between the Nazis and churches

I seee the diffrence, one is a clear and present danger, the other is not.


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Devils-Hawk
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little off topic but it is funny that it seems to be that violence, hatred, abusive behaviour, ... seems to be generally more easily tolerated than sex, nudity as it seems. I personally am more for seeing naked people on the street than seeing some poor guy getting beaten up by some far right thugs. My personal opinion though! :twisted:
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occ
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Devils-Hawk wrote:
A little off topic but it is funny that it seems to be that violence, hatred, abusive behaviour, ... seems to be generally more easily tolerated than sex, nudity as it seems. I personally am more for seeing naked people on the street than seeing some poor guy getting beaten up by some far right thugs. My personal opinion though! :twisted:


I find it to be a very US centric bias.
20 years ago or so, I saw 'The Shinning' on US Tv. At one point the main character walk into a bathroom, and there is a woman taking a shower, nude as one could expect. The US censor had decided that this was inapropriate for viewing so the picture of the woman was 'blurred'. Then she step out of the tube and start to embrass the main character, then she turn to a monster (still nude, BTW) - flesh decomposing and all... at that very moment the picture became clear again.
Conclusion. A perfectly good looking nude female is an unacceptable offense, that can tromatize children (that is the official excuse), but a nude-flesh-decomposing monster... nahh that's fine, no kid will have a nightmare over _that_!!!!

More recenlty the same pattern could be observed. in CSI, when the cahracter occasionaly walk into a strip-club, everybody is dresed-up according to the minimum FCC standard... but the same stripper whom you were not allowed to see nude while alive, lay in the nude, uncensored on the autopsy table.. so long as the face is blown-off or the guts wide opens, and the color in the yellowish-greenish tonwe, then it's OK.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To get back to topic. The Forum mods have banned sex, nudity(I wonder if there was a discussion as lengthy as this) but are not willing to do so with Nazi related stuff although some of the participants of this forum expressed concerns regarding that kind of material. The reasons for banning the nudity stuff was because of work related troubles. Hmm! I wonder only if hanging a nazi flag on your office door gets u less fired than a picture of a nude guy/girl. Probably depends on the country but most larger/international companies will probably be offended by both. My personal conclusio: Ban both or nothing. Banning one and not the other is a contradiction of the very reasons for banning one in the first place.

All thing said, only my personal opinion! :twisted:
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:
Let's see what's being discussed tomorrow when it is tomorrow.

I ask you, my fellow Germans, again: Did the law against Nazi propaganda set a precedent for other subjects during the last 60 years here?

If 82 million people can live with that one subject restricted, why shouldn't a few thousand be able to cope with that? Precedent? Hardly.


hundreds of millions live with no freedom of speech what-so-ever, so if it's 'good enough' for them, it should be 'good enough' for us ?
(PS: that is called an "Argumentum ad numerum" fallacy. )
Edit: or to put it in your own words: "Eat shit. Million of flies can't be wrong."

You neighboor, France, has similar restriction on similar topics... And for having lived there, I do thing this is a bad policy. Bad, despicable,wrong ideas are so on their own ground. sunlight will not make them look any better, but censur will give them a powerfull propaganda tool: consipracy theory.
This debate has raged, and still o some degree, on the subject of 'revisionism'. Teh strict banning of any 'revisionist' theory had so far only lead to one thing: the spread among the least educated/informed of the belief that 'there must be something there, since the 'state' is trying so hard to hide it'. Exactly the opposite of the expressed intent of the 'laws'.

I, for one, don't like to be presented only one one side of an argument.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

codergeek42 wrote:

(To explicate: A picture of someone, even someone as evil as Hitler was, is considered reasonable; whereas a picture of naked human genitalia or similar would not be.)


an asshole is an asshole, why discriminate :twisted:

PS: my personal taste is that I prefer, by a very large margin, see any part of the human body than the portrait of adolf. But someone's avatar is not meant to represente MY taste, but its owner.

I do not buy the 'workplace' argument to sanitize on the ground of 'nudity'. As it has been said over and over to the starter of this thread: one can easely turn off avator at one's own discretion. If someone is at work, and his work environement is plagued by politically correct BS, he can just as easily disable avatars.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/rant on]
I guess it too much of brain-stretch for some to seperate the symbols of the most violent hate-mongering ideologues, whose forefathers committed the worst attorcites know to mankind, and *anything* that *might* be *offensive* to *anyone*.

Talk about conflating issues. No one in there right mind is asking for a ban on *any* and *all* things that *might* be *offensive* to *anyone*.
What some are requesting is that users of these forums should not allowed to have such symbols in their avatars, not post links to sites which promulgate such rechid(sp?) spew and not be given a public space to proffer their hate mongering.

This is a no brainer. Failure to delete such accounts/ban such users will result in the Gentoo Forums becoming a place where many good longstanding gentoo users no longer feel welcome and home. The loss of a few socio-paths from the forums is no significant loss.

Delete their accounts and/or ban them it is really simply.

People have a right to their opinions. I am expressing mine here. But when people, in expressing their opinions, become mouthpieces for hate-mongering ideologues, and actively identify themselve with such, they forfeit their right to express their opinions. Historically the people who used these symbols for their identity were summarily defeated-after having committed untold attoricties against mankind. Those who today wish to identify themselves with those who committed these attrocities rightlfully evoke the intolerance of those who value the said defeat of the Nazis. In honor of those who faught against the Nazis and their attrocities and those who became victims of Nazi attrocities their should be no tolerance towards those who spit on their graves.
[/rant off]
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yabbadabbadont
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please be careful of the door on your way out...
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tenobok wrote:

If you say that the Germans will die without all the rules then you certainly make it sound like it is something bad.


Surely I never mind it. It just a way to express myself.
Don't take every word directly what it says.

But it still the truth. The rules in Germany stay over the people.

Tenobok wrote:

I already thought that you live here, just wanted to be sure.
So please enlighten me, where Germany does regulate things more than other countries do. I've travelled quite a bit and must say that I never had the feeling that I'm coming back to a country where everything is stricter than in other countries.


But you told me that my opinion is so far from the truth like St.Peterburg from Hawaii...
Is it not kind of negative thoughts? I didn't took it this way.
But just like a joke.

About things you have not or you have seen in other countries.
Trust me, every one will see what he wants to see!
One guy on this topic have seen that Stalin killed more then 30 mln people.
It's hard to explain him that is not truth, because it the same like to explain
to a muslim that there is no Allah, or explain to christian, that there is no Christi.
and so on.

If you have been to some country for two weeks, all you can say about it is:
There is <name> this country in this world.
You able to say something about the weather, nature and what have you did there.
Mostly that's all.

You you want to say something about people there you have to spend certain time
in that country. And it is not even months...

Second things is. You have to have some wishes to prove if it possible or not.
If you have no of them, how you can test it?
If you a fish you can't check if it is possible to fly...

Don't take it personaly, but a lot of things dependce on you!
But it doesn't mean that you or someone of your nation are bad.
You just have a different look.

Take a look at Latinos. Most of german not able to dance like them.
Not able to live like them. Not able to feel like them.

It doesn't mean that it is bad for German.
Opposite example. Latinos can't be such developers
or such engineers, physicists, workers like german.

Don't you know that german word "Ordnung" is famous around the world!

But you have to see, that every medal has two sides.
That german can't live without rules is another side of the same medal.

If you disagree with this side you should automatically disagree
with other one. I'm not sure you are ready for this.

You want an example from me. There are a lot of.

I don't really know which one is more obvious for you.
We have different mentality- that's for sure. So same thing could be
clear for me and unclear for you and otherwise.

Let's just take a famous one.
The rule, that forbid for women to wear a kerchief (Kopftuch)
in schools.
It's crazy for me how it could be possible to forbid to wear things.

The situation is more strange because of the weak knowledge
in Germany what really does it mean.

The official version is that Kopftuch is kind of attribute of muslim
religion...
I mostly sure that you think so as many other people, besides you
have visited a lot of countries.

That is not truth. At least because it's very comon to wear kerchief
in Russia for women who are ortodox or even religionsless.

By this you make your own country ridicule.

For many people forbid to wear kerchief is the same like
for you forbid to wear jeans or t-shirt.
It is just funny and impossible to speak about seriously.

Especially if some one try to explain you what kind of religion
is inside of this kerchief.

Keep in mind. There is no bad words in the world, there is no
bad signes in the world. There are people which make words and signes
bad. But most of people not able to distinguish that.
It seems very easy and transparent, but only in theory.


Let's make an experiment. Have you ever been to England?

Have you noticed what they write on the small tables in parks?
Something related to the green grass...

Could you please quote this text here?

And below that the german version of this.
Let us to compare the both versions.

I'm quite sure, that I could show you, that your look was not
sharp enough. :wink:
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IWBCMAN
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yabbadabbadont wrote:
Please be careful of the door on your way out...



lol


i didn't realize i was talking to noobs here.
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occ
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

falcon_za wrote:

By letting nazi endorsing people express their view in the open, just as if it was a normal thing to do, don't you think that there is a strong risk that given enough time, at least some people will be at least partly convinced, and progressively use the democracy to vote the democracy out?


You are implicitly postulating that such 'laws' workds... But France has such laws, yet, remind us who were the final two contenders of the last presidential election in France ?

Just removing the word 'shit' from the dictionary will not prevent you from stepping on it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Nazi / German 3rd Reich symbols on Gentoo Forums Reply with quote

Knieper wrote:
lefsha wrote:
I hope that you have no problem with logic at all.

Thanks, I studied many logics esp. higer order and modal logics.


And it brings you nothing... What a waste of time. :-)

Knieper wrote:

Quote:

The russian population in that time was about 80-90 millions.
Could you please imaging the situation where 30 millions of russians was killed by
Stalin an mostly nobody care about it...

30 million in ~25 years and a "slightly" different population. Not much for a huge country and many non-russian victims.


What a news... 25 years. So people in 1941-1945 was killed by Stalin?
Nice Idea. You will get Eiserne Kreuz for this!

Just try to switch your TV off for some minutes a day.
Later may be you get used survive without it...

Slightly different population.... have you ever understand what you talking about?

Knieper wrote:

Quote:
The repressions was started in 1937

Really?!
1932/1933 the holodomor in Ukraina with 5 million victims (p.ex. in Kazakhstan 1.5-2 million)


Please be so kind and translate the words you don't understand.
Use english words here.

Knieper wrote:

Quote:
How you would prove that for me?

Read actual scientific literature, it's proven. (Most sources came from russian archives.)


Don't be a child, please. It's so naiv, that it seems you still haven't saw the life.
How far from your parents house you able to walk?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please, lefsha and knieper, could we please stay on-topic?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:
Please, lefsha and knieper, could we please stay on-topic?


I hope it was all said what could be related on topic.
And if you ignore my comments I can discuss here what I want.

If I see the lie, I just showed that I disagree with that.

If we could pick up your idea all lies should be banned.
But for this job we have fire up the God.

If you able to arrange it just put the sallary he wants here.

If not, let's stop to discuss useless topic.

Just assume that there are other people here, that think other way then you.
And most of them not even Nazis...

So my kindly suggestion, please stop to play Don Quichotte
and stop fighting Windmills!!

There are so much people on the earth which dying right now
being killed by people which don't ever use any of Nazis symbolic
or may be even hate it...
that I don't care about using of any symbolic at all.
But I'm really care about these dying people!

If you need to cure your soul problem go the church and stop
of presenting you like a big fighter against the Nazis.

I hate people which care about some symbols during the time
other people dying.

Auf gut Deutsch. Ist Dir nicht scheiß egal welche Zeichen trägt
der Mann der auf andere Leute schießt ???

Was bist Du für ein bekloppter Pedant der sich nur um
blöde Dinge kümmert? Bist Du ein Harz IV emfänger
oder weisst Du nicht wie man 24 Stunde verbringen kann?

Biste jetzt echt zufrieden, dass ich on Topic geredet habe?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flammie wrote:
Philantrop wrote:
So genitalia are more evil and less reasonable than Hitler? We all have genitalia and we all have seen them naked. What's bad or unreasonable about them?


IANAL. Displaying sexual images to minors is illegal in most parts of the world, including the part of the world where Gentoo Organisation is legally responsible. Displaying national socialist images is not.


Actually you have the proportion reversed.
displaying 'genitalia' to minors is not illegal is almost every country that uphold some kind of freedom of speech- with the notable exception of the USA...
I don't think the that english newspaper are out-of-reach of minors, and last time I checked - granted it was a long time ago, there was nice tits involved in page 3. Doing my homeworkd, I checked and here you go: http://www.page3.com that is still true. Please notice the complet absence of 'adult warning')
in the same vein, check
http://www.tvmag.com/jsp/prog/fiche.jspx?idProg=16189456
the TV program for next monday on channel 6, in France.

On the other hand nazi symbol are banned or severly limited is many country in europe, so if that was a valid rational then it would be in favor of allowing tits and banning adolf.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IWBCMAN wrote:
[/rant on]
I guess it too much of brain-stretch for some to seperate the symbols of the most violent hate-mongering ideologues, whose forefathers committed the worst attorcites know to mankind, and *anything* that *might* be *offensive* to *anyone*.


It is you that don't brain-stretch enough to understand that:
1) Your opinion on nazism is shared by me and by many, but not by everyone (otherwise we wouldn't be here arguing). Our opinion on it is not universal.
2) A lot of ideologies/governments/etc. did atrocities and so on. Should be ban avatars of Napoleon, Torquemada or Emperor Nero?
3) Nazism did a lot of atrocious deaths. Smoke does a lot of atrocious deaths. Should be ban avatars with cigarettes or smoking people?
4) The same if someone displays nuclear mushroom clouds? (I actually love them, I have them on my desktop. Yet they mean death and horror to Japanese people, isn't it?)
5) The very fact of censoring other people opinions/symbols/etc. is what did of Nazism what we know now (heh, imagine the Axis won the war, we would be here discuting if banning people with Jewish avatars is OK, probably. After all, for a Nazi, Jews are exactly "hate-mongering ideologues, whose forefathers committed the worst attorcites know to mankind")
6) The fact some symbol can be disturbing, offensive and the like does not mean that is does not exist. Censoring it wouldn't help. It is a much more mature attitude to understand they exist.
7) A nazi symbol can be used for provoking or satyrical purposes (do you remember "The Producers"?), so you could actually ban clever anti-Nazi artwork by densely censoring all Nazi related stuff.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

occ wrote:
On the other hand nazi symbol are banned or severly limited is many country in europe, so if that was a valid rational then it would be in favor of allowing tits and banning adolf.

But as the forums servers are physically located in the USA and Gentoo is registered in USA too the offical rules and the moderators/admins need to obey the US legislation - which is fine with pictures of Adolf and his guys but has some (extremly weird -from an european point of view-) issues with nudity.

Like it or not - the day politicans will understand the internet is the day before the sun turns into a big red star...
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Philantrop,

The forums are international. Other national groups may feel the same way about their former dictatorships.
e.g. Russians and Stalin
South America (forget the country) and Peron
Uganda and Amin ...
If the insigna if one group is banned where do we stop ?
All political symbols being banned?

Thats jus some food for thought


The country that you forgot is Argentina and Peron was not a dictator, He was an elected president, At this time Argentina was a Democratic country.
You need first try to get information before write. By the way, I do not like Peron, but he was a Democratic President.
Regards,
dmery
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Posts: 202

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Nazi / German 3rd Reich symbols on Gentoo Forums Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:

I hope that you have no problem with logic at all.

I don't know about him, but I don't.
Quote:

The russian population in that time was about 80-90 millions.

http://www.answers.com/topic/demographics-of-the-soviet-union
give us
January 1920 : 137,727,000*
January 1926 : 148,656,000*
January 1937: 162,500,000*
January 1939: 168,524,000*
June 1941: 196,716,000*
January 1946: 170,548,000*
January 1951: 182,321,000*
January 1959: 209,035,000*
Quote:

30 millions means 1 of 3 persons was killed !!!!

not widthstanding the factor 3 misrepresentation of the base population, you argument is flawed because it assume that the 30 millions occured in 3 years.
Stalin ruled for few decades. Stalin reigned from 1922 to 1953. There are very little argument that by 1930, he was in complete control. so that leave at least 20 years, that is 1.5 millions a year, or less than 1% of the population a year. That is a lot, but absolutely not big as to be 'illogical' by any measure.
Bear in mind that twice that number would have died by 'normal' demographic pressure (out of 150 millions people, with an life expectancy of say 60 year, you could roughly expect 2-3 millions death a year...)
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