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yabbadabbadont
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two things. First, if you are at work, what are you doing browsing the Gentoo forums website? (OK, if you use Gentoo at work, then you have a valid reason for being here) Second, since the moderators/admins have made it very clear that they are not going to ban the symbols, how about one of them lock this thread as further discussion is pointless. Neither those for banning, nor those opposed are ever going to convince the others that their point of view is the correct one. Let's just all agree to disagree and let it go.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yabbadabbadont wrote:
Two things. First, if you are at work, what are you doing browsing the Gentoo forums website? (OK, if you use Gentoo at work, then you have a valid reason for being here)


I'm using three Gentoo servers at one location, five or six at another and one server and two workstations at a third. So, yes, I sometimes need the forums at work. At other times I simply support people from work.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:
At least one person apart from myself might get fired if his boss were to see Nazi symbols on his screen. I definitely would get fired. Is the above passage correct or is it not?


If you would get summarily terminated for simply visiting a website which contained a swastika, without consideration for the nature and/or legitimacy of that site, then your employers are irrational to the extreme.

Certainly no sane person would fault you for visiting a technical support forum at which another user happened to be a Nazi. If you do indeed work in such an environment, I feel incredibly sorry for you.
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Phenax
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'm going to get a Nazi avatar.

If it offends you, turn avatars off? You want to bitch further than that, then obviously you are just looking for an argument.
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curtis119
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:
curtis119 wrote:
As a member of the team who runs that privately owned forum I am telling you point blank: No.


Ok, so let me ask you, a member of that team, a question about this passage written by codergeek:

Quote:
thus our general rule of thumb as a team is (as Curtis so nicely worded to me ): "Will it get someone in trouble at work if their boss were to see it?" If so, then the avatar is Not Good(tm) and we will politely ask that the person change it. We will override them and remove it ourselves if they say no andwe all agree it should go.


At least one person apart from myself might get fired if his boss were to see Nazi symbols on his screen. I definitely would get fired. Is the above passage correct or is it not?


That quote was out of context (codergeeks fault). It actually is referring to nudity. We have already told you what to do, turn off avatars in your profile and don't go to OTW. I've answered your question about this subject and I'm done with this thread. Feel free to discuss it amongst yourselves.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to put my "two words" into discusion. If there are any nazi symbols on forum, there should be policy and such symbols should be deleted!. So - no nazi symbols allowed in my opinion!. If anyone know what's nazi mean, what's the filozophy of it, he will agree with me.
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brullonulla
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, let's get into real borderline examples.
Should I get this avatar:
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/9977/billgatesisyourfriend6zv.jpg

what do our enlightened avatar-censors think? Surely there is a clear Nazi reference -however anyone with a grain of salt in his/her brain would understand it's just a joke. However it's a joke recalling Nazism in a lighthearted, humorous way. Wait- humorous Nazism?

Oh, and what about this:
http://www.pk-prod.com/blogkek/img/legoplaymo/Images/Lego%20Hitler.jpg

and the artwork here displayed:
http://www.boydrice.com/gallery/boyd_gallery/images/boyd_unpopshow.jpg

where is the edge?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brullonulla wrote:
Ok, let's get into real borderline examples.


where is the edge?


The edge is, where nazi symbols appears. In your examples the symbols are on each one. Each one should be forbidden.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brullonulla wrote:
Ok, let's get into real borderline examples.
Should I get this avatar:
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/9977/billgatesisyourfriend6zv.jpg

what do our enlightened avatar-censors think? Surely there is a clear Nazi reference -however anyone with a grain of salt in his/her brain would understand it's just a joke. However it's a joke recalling Nazism in a lighthearted, humorous way. Wait- humorous Nazism?

Oh, and what about this:
http://www.pk-prod.com/blogkek/img/legoplaymo/Images/Lego%20Hitler.jpg

and the artwork here displayed:
http://www.boydrice.com/gallery/boyd_gallery/images/boyd_unpopshow.jpg

where is the edge?


All three are acceptable.
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brullonulla
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phoenix_me wrote:
brullonulla wrote:
Ok, let's get into real borderline examples.


where is the edge?


The edge is, where nazi symbols appears. In your examples the symbols are on each one. Each one should be forbidden.


So I guess, by your criteria, this should be banned:
http://www.hfcgesundbrunnen.de/anti-nazi.gif

Interesting.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brullonulla wrote:
Ok, let's get into real borderline examples.
Should I get this avatar:
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/9977/billgatesisyourfriend6zv.jpg

what do our enlightened avatar-censors think? Surely there is a clear Nazi reference -however anyone with a grain of salt in his/her brain would understand it's just a joke. However it's a joke recalling Nazism in a lighthearted, humorous way. Wait- humorous Nazism?

where is the edge?

Good point.
I confess I particularly like the first example. :wink:
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cousin
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We all know neo-nazis are sexually repressed guys, just like A. Hitler. I even call them "natzies". My parents came from Portugal because of the fascist dictatorship of Salazar (very much like Franco in Spain), and they were supported by Herr Führer. One day I was browsing David Irving's site and in one article he was answering questions by a 12-year old girl. He said something like jews are physically ugly. I don't remember the exact words. But then I saw a picture of Göring in his site and I understood the thinly veiled homosexuality behind the fascination with nazis. On the other hand, I find that this issue of nazism is exploited by the Israeli govt to disguise their actions. They want a jewish majority in Israel and they use methods that pretty much say they don't care about innocent non-jewish civilians. Those that are blind to it can't say "it should not happen again" when it's happening right now.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cousin wrote:
On the other hand, I find that this issue of nazism is exploited by the Israeli govt to disguise their actions. They want a jewish majority in Israel and they use methods that pretty much say they don't care about innocent non-jewish civilians. Those that are blind to it can't say "it should not happen again" when it's happening right now.


Very good point indeed.
Maybe we should add something to the guidelines then like - just 'out of mind, very late here, ianal, etc.'
Quote:
Political/anti-rassist/honour-hurting/sexually explicit/etc... statements of any kind, including avatars and signatures shall be avoided outside of OTW (as this might lead to a temporary/complete ban)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another example.

A famous comedian here in Italy (Corrado Guzzanti) a few years ago created a comic TV sketch about Fascism entitled Fascisti su Marte (that is, "Fascists on Mars"). Basically it was a series of parodistic fake Fascist-era Italian newsreels boasting (with plenty of Fascist rethoric and bombastic expressions) the heroism of a bunch of Fascist blackshirts on their improbable conquest of Mars. It was extremly well done and hilarious, and it is well remembered here in Italy. (One of my favourite gags was when, landing on Mars, they barely can breathe and the leader of the expedition tells them to look at the bronze Mussolini head one of them is bringing and shouts "Comrades!Stop whining!Do you perhaps hear Him complaining?")

Now, the sketch featured a LOT of Fascist paraphernalia and things like Roman salutes and so on. Being a parody of Fascist newsreels, it is inevitable, and it builds up the surreality of the thing. But of course it was a parody (Guzzanti is a well known left-wing activist, and no one sane could have taken that sketch seriously) and the national Italian television, during the left-wing goverment, had no problem in airing it. Still there was plenty of Fascist symbols and the like, and after all the sketch was boasting Fascism apology (although for parodistic purposes)!

Again: where do you draw the line?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think4UrS11 wrote:

Maybe we should add something to the guidelines then...


Maybe we should:
(1)Tell people to grow up and learn that other people sometimes display things they don't like, but since this is part of complexity of humankind, you get along and get a life :wink:
(2)If you still can't go around it, teach people to disable avatars in their profiles.
(3)If even this is not enough -but it SHOULD, between reasonable people, however...- I guess that an <offensive> tag could be added to avatars, and the options to display them or not to profiles, so that people that love to see just avatars with rainbows and ponies and smileys can, without seeing our nasty politically-uncorrect symbols.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

curtis119 wrote:
That quote was out of context (codergeeks fault).
Sorry, Curtis. I really should try not to argue things right before bedtime. >_> Thanks for clearing that up.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't believe in censorship. Ideas should not be underground in order to discuss (and possibly dismiss) them. Most natzies online are kids (hardly +24) and it's hard for them to repress the opportunity they enjoy to cause a little restlessness. Or maybe they're just trying to figure why some things disturb some. It may be easier to confront each one and see what they say. Are they even remotely German anyway ? It must be very odd to find Russian or British natzies out there. We must remember that the natzie salute is in reality a roman salute. And the swastika being a "good luck" symbol, it cannot be any more, as I understand the whole paranormal thing being based on a state of mind. It must be hard to dissociate the "new" meaning now.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give it a rest, you've been told no.
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bitpicker
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a German, I'd like to comment on some of the points made here, but first off, I agree that censorship is not the most sensible option, even though the point is valid that according to German law we Germans do run a certain risk of censure, being sacked from our jobs is possible, law suits because of links to sites with Nazi symbols on them are possible (and wholesale disclaimers are useless). Suggestions of attempts to make our politicians or bosses think otherwise are pretty silly. But at least as far as this forum is concerned, disabling avatars does the trick indeed.

Nazi symbols are symbols for something, just as words are. To someone with a German upbringing, seeing Nazi symbols displayed by someone who might intend them to be statements (as opposed to a documentary context etc.) is very similar to seeing someone use the symbols of the alphabet to spell the message 'kill all niggers' (no offense meant to anyone, this is to illustrate the point) on their T-shirt. Everyone here not of a German background please accept that. Hollow excuses such as that the raised arm used to be a Roman greeting or that the swastika used to be a sun or luck symbol are just as valid as the supposition that the letter A still means a bull today just because the sign used to mean exactly that in pre-writing times (it's a bull's head turned upside down). The meanings of symbols change, and people trying to argue on the basis of outmoded definitions of symbols miss a crucial point.

So, anyone who thinks wearing such a T-shirt as described above in public is a good and funny idea, be my guest, but don't think it's going to make you look smart or funny or anything but an idiot. Same goes for Nazi stuff.

As for censorship in general, there seems to be a certain tendency amongst some here to think their country or society doesn't have any censorship. No such thing. The only thing there is is countries or societies which have most of their population think there isn't any censorship, and citizens willing to buy that line.

And @ cousin:

Quote:

It must be very odd to find Russian or British natzies out there.


Not at all. Nazi or fascist thought isn't inherently German, just because at some time we used to be very good at it. England has its fair share of the type, France has, I bet Russia has, too. Hell, even the US have theirs. In fact, in various European countries fascists have much larger political influence than they do in Germany (France's LeFebvre comes to mind).

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philantrop wrote:
You do realize these are the Gentoo Forums, not the United Nations? Don't you think there's tiny wee little bit of a difference?


Why should democracy work in the UN, if it doesn't work in a small forum?

rev138 wrote:
Philantrop wrote:
At least one person apart from myself might get fired if his boss were to see Nazi symbols on his screen. I definitely would get fired. Is the above passage correct or is it not?


Just another lie. First links to such sites are illegal, now the bad boss and later the imploding heaven...

chrbecke wrote:

I vote for restricting nazi symbols. And, to all of you who shout out "But swastikas are an old asian symbol abused by the Hitler regime" - reread the topic: this is about banning Nazi / German 3rd Reich symbols - not swastikas.


Please reread the topic. It's not singular in history, so you have to ban nearly all symbols and opinions.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To all those that say that everyone should be allowed to publish nazi symbols and opinions: Visit places like Stutthof or Auschwitz first. EOT imo.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Searching deeper in my conscious I found out the following:

In a multinational environment (which is a relatively new idea, compared to the thousands of years that traditions and civilizations exist) many problems might occur if someone is not very careful.

For example: Certain gestures that mean "hallo" for people sharing one cultural background, might be very offensive for people sharing another cultural background.

Therefore, someone wishing to join such an environment should set very strict values of communication for thyself.

There is a simple logic:

Q: "What do I want to learn?"
A: "How to boot Gentoo"
Q: "How do I do that?"
A: "Ask a straight forward question to the appropriate place, using less words and more intuition."
Q: "Shall this kind of question and any communication developed around it offend someone?"
A: "No, because intuition includes good will and of course a strict focus on the result... which is the exact answer to an exact question."

On this basis, my opinion is that someone who admires the acts of Nazis and has not imagined that this might be at least intimidating for the humanity or for someone else -fellow human being- who has suffered from these acts, is very acceptable to a multinational environment such as gentoo forums.

The reason for this is that when he realizes that the "show off" of his beliefs make him a person that does not contribute to the goal of any multinational environment since his very presence makes people abandon any effort of communication inside this environment, he will kindly stop "showing off" or just cease being offensive without any reason.

Through this procedure he would have improved himself one step forward since he got inspired by something new! The perspective of life that is closer to the human act of communication which can be established between two or more living souls only when tranquility (mental or physical) is guaranteed.

On the occasion that someone uses a multinational environment to "show off" on purpose, whatever he/she discusses is out of topic. Because, whatever I am discussing about, when I make other people feel uncomfortable and offended by me, they will never hear/understand what I am talking about -even if I do not have the intention to offend them.

For example, when I want to communicate with a fellow female being, to express my feelings about her and what her beauty and kindness inspires me to do, I do not offer her a hard core uncensored video tape of people engaging in sexual activity. The reason for this, is that even my message is very detailed and focused to the very spot, the most probable for her is to call the police. Why? Because I disturbed her and this made my message "out of topic".

Under other circumstances, we can both enjoy such a show and if we like it, we can feel great together. Why? Because, as "other circumstances" is meant the guaranteed and underlying state of tranquility.

My opinion is that whoever for any-what reason disturbs or offends the state of tranquility of other living souls in any environment, he is "out of topic" and will never be able to communicate with them. If communication is the environment's goal, he should act in a way that this goal is accomplished or else he should go elsewhere, where he belongs.

If he urgently needs help because he cannot even do this on his own initiative, there are professionals that can help and he or his mental parents can urge to them.

Meanwhile, my opinion is that every environment which focuses on communication and respects itself, should remind him/her that he/she is out of topic. Because ignorance is even worse than a deceiving behavior.

Kind regards,
orange_juice


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rane
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stutthof_concentration_camp

If this is the type of freedom Americans want to fight for, i pity them.

In my opinion we should ban everybody who spreads nazism or communism in here.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rane++

After reading whole thread I see that moderator team has not a coherent policy about censorship.

amne wrote:
Philantrop wrote:
Isn't that plain egomaniacal censorship? Isn't goatse.cx exactly the precedent so many here are afraid of? What's the difference to Nazi stuff? Doesn't Nazi stuff offend enough people but goatse.cx does? And who defines "common sense" here? Who's "big brother" here and thinks for us? That's not only censorship but dictatorship!
Basically, the moderators. However we are bound to the policies of these forums as well, so if someone of us goes on a power trip and starts doing stuff the others disagree with, they should be able to stop him.
As for your goatse.cx example, it sometimes is easier to define what isn't common sense. If people from Germany, Austria, Brazil, USA, Sweden, UK, Australia, the Netherlands and Greece (note: quite a selection of western countries) agree that something isn't common sense like goatse.cx, it isn't (per definition).
Of course there always is the chance the moderators are wrong, and it's up to the users to point out errors in their reasoning, but i think we do a quite good job in general.
Situations like that on the other hand are a lose/lose scenario though, whatever we do will upset some people for sure anyway. ;)


So, as long as majority agrees that something isn't common sense you can censor it. I don't see how that conform with freedom of speech.

Why didn't you told people to turn the avatars off when they don't want to see goatse.cx?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arach wrote:
To all those that say that everyone should be allowed to publish nazi symbols and opinions: Visit places like Stutthof or Auschwitz first. EOT imo.


I visited Dachau, thanks. And oh, my grandpa lost his own mind in a German camp (He came back alive, but he never recovered the psychological shock. I remember him screaming horribly when sleeping.)

However I think everyone should be allowed to publish nazi symbols, because I firmly believe in freedom of speech. No matter how it does hurt me. Freedom of speech exists to protect speech that is provoking and that stirs up controversy, more than for protecting speech about the glitter on ponies.

Crenshaw wrote:

Why didn't you told people to turn the avatars off when they don't want to see goatse.cx?


You're right. They should have told them to instead of censor them. I hope this thread makes them change their mind about it, too. Goatse would make a great avatar, if only a bit abused :wink:
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