X 7.1 still testing on x86/amd64 because of BINARY drivers?

vmboy · n00b Joined: 20 Oct 2004 Posts: 9

People, please listen to yourselves talk! It is painfully obvious that some of you have forgotten why you chose to use gentoo in the first place. I agree that 7.1 should still be ~x86/~amd64 because it causes the least amount of trouble for the most amount of people. However, it really doesn't matter because gentoo gives you the flexibility to package.keywords/mask/unmask/use to your hearts content. No other distro gives you such granular and flexible control. Quit complaining and be greatful that you have such a wonderful distro to work with.

On the subject of proprietary drivers, well, until something better comes along, there is not much choice. I don't think the gentoo team should be criticized for providing technically superior closed-source packages. Yes, it bends the "gentoo philosophy" in terms of being closed, but it also supports the "gentoo philosophy" by providing what is currently the best solution. I think most of the nvidia/ati users in the gentoo community are glad that these packages are available. Strict 100% adherence to any philosophy can sometimes breed unwanted fanaticism.

While it is frustrating to wait for vendors to release proprietary driver updates, it is also fruitless to worry about things you can't control. Below is a block of pseudo-code to help the undecided decide what to do:

VinzC · Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject:

There is a difference, indeed. But including such packages in a GPL'ed package set like Gentoo is equivalent to preparing the roots for such a discussion.
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Q-collective · Advocate Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 2071

Q-collective · Advocate Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 2071

skyPhyr · Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject:

hmmmm - this is a tough one. While I am running the binary drivers with xorg 7.1 already (yeah - I have the text glitches, but it's generally only in kdm and firefox) I voted no.

The issue is that by allowing it to hold things back you leave many users oblivious to the issues because things continue to just work for them. I would say that even most linux users don't get freedom (yeah call me a hypocrit because I'm using closed source drivers). More people having to package.mask means more people understanding the need for free software. If being closed source was such an advantage then we'd see a greater disparity in the quality of video cards provided by manufacturers. They should be providing linux support on linux's terms.

I'm going to get flamed to death for this, but the point is it's easy to spout freedom, but all of you seem to be backing down when it costs you something (even if that cost is as small as adding a few lines to package.mask). At least unmasking (assuming it would be unmasked otherwise) would demonstrate that gentoo truly values freedom (including freedom of choice).

Anyway - just my two cents.

Cheers,

Alan.

micko · Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject:

Halcy0n · Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:41 pm Post subject:

Q-collective · Advocate Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 2071

Hence the second sentence.

tsunam · Retired Dev Joined: 23 Feb 2004 Posts: 343

Q-collective: You know what I do within gentoo I suppose, so saying that people can mask something so that 7.1 can go stable is entirely NOT a option. This would far and away break the point of having a stable system. If there is no stable binary driver for people who would use it...with the stable xorg..you just broke everyones machine. Just because a program works, does not mean that it SHOULD go stable.

As a example..would you want to drive a car where the automaker changed how brakes work..but the people who makes the pads haven't updated to this new style. What happens if the automaker still releases it as a new product knowing that something is quite likely to not perform as it should? They'd get their ass sued to kingdom come by everyone who bought the car.

So basically, xorg-7.1 will stay as it it as far as I'm concerned until we have propietary drivers that work with the new api.

Please also note I fought against xorg-7 going ~x86 when there were 1000 packages broken with it. I'm sure people would of loved working through that set of issues as well.
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Halcy0n · Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject:

Q-collective · Advocate Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 2071

at240 · l33t Joined: 12 Aug 2005 Posts: 603 Location: UK

Halcy0n · Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject:

PaulSorensen · Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: Religous wars

I know that certain high-flyers in the open source world are outspoken against closed-source software, but if Gentoo (and other open-source platform) focus only on them then they will never become "main-stream".

I certainly believe that the advantages of open source software outweigh the disadvantages - and that software will move in this direction over time. But until then we're living in a world where there is a mix, and the two biggest video card manufacturers believe that there is an advantage to them in having closed source drivers. Most Gentoo users choose to use them over the open source drivers and Gentoo shouldn't be in the business of punishing them for it.

codergeek42 · Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Religous wars

dberkholz · Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Religous wars

codergeek42 · Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Religous wars

Q-collective · Advocate Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 2071

BlackEdder · Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: Religous wars

Icer · Guru Joined: 26 Aug 2003 Posts: 395 Location: @home

Q-collective · Advocate Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 2071

I can live with the current approach if portage would get the feature to have masking being dependant on your USE flags.
So, if you use the floss drivers, your xorg is unmasked.
If Nvidia releases their fixed drivers next week and you use them, your xorg gets unmasked, no need to wait for Ati.

In the current situation, everyone has to wait untill Ati finally releases their fixed drivers (6 months from now? Xorg 7.2 is out by then!)

But this would require a serious change of portage, which is not going to happen.

dberkholz · Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject:

How would you feel if there was a Gentoo-hosted set of overlays, and you had to add one of them using a Gentoo-supported tool to use binary drivers?

Q-collective · Advocate Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 2071

thechris · Veteran Joined: 12 Oct 2003 Posts: 1203

what, they're disuading the installation of a package because it will probably break your system and yet allowing you to upgrade anywayif you really want to? next they'll be holding back gcc or python just because an upgrade could affect portage! how dare them not put a clearly stable package into the stable arch just because it will break other packages!
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Q-collective · Advocate Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 2071