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IWBCMAN
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my $0.02:

The relative success of gentoo has proven that the youngest generation of computer users want to get their hands dirty, mucking with the messy details<egad> involved in getting a highly optimized system. This bodes well for the future of programming and software development in general. Back in the day, when I started playing with computers, much software simply did not exist-if you wanted your comuter to do something you had to program it yourself to get it to work.

Like peeking and poking the serial port to enable real-time chat with a 300 baud dial-up modem to the only other guy in town with a modem on a home computer- or teaching a Radio Shack/TRS-80 Color computer BASIC to use hi-res draw commands to to implement a hand-crafted font set for 85x27 text on a black and white television set w/ 640x225 resoltion-so that I could type my school papers on the computer.

When the Lisa came out, the mac's predecessor, I got a taste of what was to come-machines comming with all the software you need and hardly anyone needing to write programs for themselves anymore. To this day I never really wanted to have a Mac machine because I want a command line interface-even if I rarely program at all nowadays.

Who would have thunk that after so many years of user-freindly system, where there hands were held, there asses were kissed, and there brains turned to mush with consumer-level computer appliances, that anyone one would want to get their hands dirty, mucking with system internals ? The youngest generation of gentoo users, who dominate these threads, were not even born back in the day when I had no other choice but to have dirty hands. Yet they love gentoo- their exposure to user friendliness was probably there folk's win95 machine with which they played Disney games.

The availability of user-friendly tools which make getting a running installation up and running will not discourage gentoo users and potential gentoo newbies from wanting to learn how to get their hands dirty-it may in fact encourage them to do so- particularly if they can fall back on something which can at least get a system up and running for them should they get their hands so dirty that no amount of washing will clean their hands.

I am 100% pro a dual-track install systall system- and a auto kernel configurator sounds very, very cool. The biggest problem with new installation is limiting the complexity to a point of managability. As in any troubleshooting process one has to weed out the extraneous from the important and delimit the number of possible factors which could be accounting for the observed functioning. With the dirth of common hardware, and the various differences in hardware implementation and how such works used in various combinations present in varying hardware setups poses a serious difficulty to many first time installers.

To the extent that auto hardware recognition, auto kernel configuration and automagic management of config scripts can ameliorate such potential hurdles for newbies- more power to it. And personally I would love seeing a boot-splash GRP -based GUI installed version of gentoo replete with two dozen well-integrated GUI configuration apps(kportage/gnoportage) coordinated in a single system available on CD which I could install on my girlfriends computer. But I would probably prefer the dirty hands method for myself, and I know, all to well, that everyones hands are eventually going to have to get dirty, which is why I have no fear of "user-friendliness"....
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't there room for a user friendly distro to be built on top of Gentoo? Wouldn't that be better? Let Gentoo concentrate on being Gentoo, and let somebody else build a user friendly installer / whatever else to sit on top of it.

Remember, Xandros, Lindows and others are Debian at heart.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To all those who say: Gentoo is for those who want to learn, I say this is exactly why making it a little more accessible would be a great thing. Lots of people might want to learn, but find the task too daunting at present (especially those without handy friends who can help them along). So providing some tools to hold people's hands while they learn can't be a bad thing.

To all those who say: I like Gentoo the way it is, I say this won't change Gentoofor you! You can jump out of the GUI install, not install the configuration tools, detect and set-up your hardware yourself if you like, just as you can install packages from scratch if you feel like boycotting Portage once in a while.

IWBCMAN, you are spot on, and charlieg, this is exactly what I see being proposed at the moment, though not on such a grand scale. Begin by branching off a seperate bunch of tools that work with Gentoo to make installing and cinfiguring easier, without doing it all for the user, and then as time goes by maybe it will build into a full, and quite different, beast to Gentoo. But for the moment, it's just like Debian running a desktop sub-project and an installer sub-project.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, as the person that kind of sparked this heated exchange, I'd like to say that I'm not newbie-unfriendly; I spend 99.9% of my time on the forums looking to help other people. I don't want anyone to turn away from Gentoo; it truly saddens me each time we get a "goodbye Gentoo" posting. I would rather support people than have them depend on a program I don't necessarily know the internals of. Of course, such programs could help them deal with some of the smaller issues -- I have no problem with that.


I think we can all agree on one thing -- let there be some hand-holding apps, but let them branch off and the excellent user support we have here continue to help people. A program can generally do what's right, but a person supporting can make vastly more insightful, intelligent decisions. Statements that "real men use Makefiles" are simply reactionary and inflammatory. Such rhetoric has no place in this debate.

I think it's a misnomer that GUIS are the only way to be user friendly. Like I said, consoles and vim are certainly friendly to me, whereas I've seen some WinXP things that make a strong man cry. Yes, we are visual beings, and pointing and clicking is easier to understand than typing series of commands (for people unfamiliar with a CLI). User-friendly is what you make it; newbie-friendly is generalization, and what I see as rife with potential for mistake.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I coudn't agree more with the sudden flow of noob that would cause. But having the same questions answered a thousand times is inherant to every forum and is a problem we must work with, not ignore.

Then pretty much everything else has been said, user-friendly is good and doesn't restrict anybody in any way.

With all the sparkles I'm glad nobody opened the gaz. :D :P
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charlieg
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broschi wrote:
I coudn't agree more with the sudden flow of noob that would cause. But having the same questions answered a thousand times is inherant to every forum and is a problem we must work with, not ignore.

Gentoo could do with a knowledge base of sorts. Searching the forum is good, but not that good - you usually have to read a lot before finding your answer.

A knowledge base would be much more direct, and a lot of it probably would come from the forums.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could anyone please point me to what this automated stuff is actually suppose to do?`

Because it certainly sounds like a good idea, at least if it does what I think it's suppose to (hardware detection then configuration of kernel and off to compile we go).. all I see if a possible problem with stuff like my Archos, which requires isd200, ide-scsi, etc, and I don't plug that in all the time because I have 2 USB connectors and 3 USB devices (Archos, Keyboard, Trackball) - and during the install I mostlikely will want keyboard and trackball.

So how do we handle this - all modules and insert on demand (would be cool - but a bit "unhandy" for some tasks... maybe one should go read d-map and udev implementation guides)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Eliteist" opinion here: ;)

Kernel "autoconfigure" is just a bad idea all the way around. If ease of install is the goal, why not just have a pre-compiled modular kernel (i.e., rh, drake)? A kernel compile is NOT something that the user should EVER be eased through.

I'm not a big fan of the thought "Gentoo for the masses". Tho I do think that Gentoo is the best damn linux distro out there, I don't think it's really for complete newbies. I must agree with StrCrssd in the two classes of linux users Gentoo is well-suited for. I have been involved in quite a few installs, and have seen two results:

1) User in one of the two classes, loves Gentoo, learns tons about linux and lives happily ever after; and
2) User who needs all the gui's, doesn't wanna learn anything about linux, ends up going back to drake or doze after fubar'ing system...

Let's face it folks. Our favorite distro isn't really about all the speed increases, it's about flexibility. We are given a ton of choices to make during the install that determine the features, stability and speed of the system. These choices really must be made intellengently or the end product is flawed.

Ask around in some of the development communities (rhythmbox, evolution) and see what they say about Gentoo'ers in general. We've gotten a pretty bad reputation based on newbies reporting problems to em that are due to improper CFLAGS, old libraries or other Gentoo-specific glitches. Do we really want a whole new class of people with even less of an understanding of what's going on under the hood tweaking their systems into non-existance?

Just my .02 worth...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin_Matt, your post is misleading because you simply cannot bunch all computer users into two groups. They all occupy various spots on a wide spectrum, from those who find MaxOSX horribly complex, to those who code in asm in their sleep. At the moment Gentoo attracts a given segment of this spectrum - advanced users, and there is no reason why it shouldn't widen this segment - experienced users who aren't confident enough to become advanced users on their own.

I think it depends a lot on what kernel autoconfiguring does. It might simply use various tools like lspci and a few question prompts to build a list of options it thinks you'll need, or possibly want, in your kernel, leaving you to then configure with that help. Or it might automatically enter them into the config file, and then ask you to look through the configuration with the changes highlighted. Those two approaches (that have just come off the top of my head :)) sound fairly sensible, and in no way hide the user from what's going on. They're just safety nets.

charlieg: a knowledge base sounds like a good idea. It'd be good if, in the Documentation section, you had heavily moderated threads which were, in the first post, answers to common problems that aren't resolved through ebuild upgrades. It's already sort of like that, but there isn't a standard procedure for moving solved problems into there, and it isn't obvious to newcomers to search it for answers.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Telex4
I'm not bunching all computer users into two groups. Simply the linux-interested ones... ;)
The grouping is based on my experiences with Gentoo and watching the experiences of others. And you are quite wrong about the segment of computer users Gentoo attracts. I can think of two people off the top of my head that had little/no linux experience before using Gentoo, yet sat down with the docs and forums, now have happily running systems and learned more in a few months about linux than I did in years using rh. It's not about experience level, it's about a willingness and ability to learn.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well OK then, I revise the segment, though I still think you're wrong to bunch GNU/Linux users into two such distinct groups. Still what you say doesn't give any reason why making installation and configuration easier (without hiding anything from the user) is a bad idea, or somehow "not Gentoo"
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AgentUSA
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make It Simple Stupid! Gentoo should be accessible for anyone who wants to use it as long as you don't compromise on the flexibility and features that make this distribution so good. I agree that elitism really hurt Debian and I'd hate to see it happen here.

Personally, I think autoconfiguring the kernel is a great idea. Right now, the kernel configuration portion of the install is the hardest (and least documented) step for newbies. Once they get their feet wet and have a running system, then they can learn how to manually build a kernel.


Last edited by AgentUSA on Tue Apr 15, 2003 5:37 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About the kernel-autoconfiguration:

I think we have to wait and see waht it really does. If it is just an optional program / shell-script that has to be invoked manually and creates a kernel config based on the hardware found I'm ok with it. The main thing is that the installation docs have to point it out, so the user knows what it is doing and that it isn't perfect.

About GUI installers:

I wouldn't be happy with them. The main cause is that a GUI installer invites the unexpierenced user to just click "next" if they are not sure what the right settings are. And with a GUI I think that less users would read the (excellent) installation docs and end up frustrated because something doesn't work as they expected. And this would give a bad reputation for Gentoo to them. They might even call Gentoo another RH/Suse/Mandrake/... :cry:
With the current install method they have to read the docs, which I think is a good thing. It has room for improvements though, e.g. the network settings could be transferred automatically. But for me it's important that the principally install method stays the same: get a working linux, get net access, chroot to the to-be-installed system, compile your system.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think a GUI installer is needed yet. That's just eye candy that can be added down the road if people really want it. If you want the simplify the current install, then help the user out with the following steps.

Scripting the rudimentary commands. (This can even help out power users that go through the install a lot.)
Partitioning/formatting/fstab setup
make.conf (specifically USE flags and CFLAGS)
Kernel configuration (already being addressed)
XFree86 configuration
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genone, you make a good point about the GUI installer, which really spplied to all tools Gentoo provides. There's a case for making things easier, but the tools mustn't allow a user to simply type/press "Next" and hope that the tools happen to autoconfigure everything correctly.

I think with an installer, a GUI with an embedded shell, which is split into two halves, one with documentation and buttons, and the other with a shell, might be nice. Each screen deals with a particular task (e.g. partitioning, stting up the base config files, kernel configuration, etc.) and has some autodetection features to make things safer (so users are less likely to get things wrong), with the explanations of what steps to take in the shell to set things up. It's a compromise :)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genone wrote:
About the kernel-autoconfiguration:

I think we have to wait and see waht it really does. If it is just an optional program / shell-script that has to be invoked manually and creates a kernel config based on the hardware found I'm ok with it. The main thing is that the installation docs have to point it out, so the user knows what it is doing and that it isn't perfect.

Even this sort of thing can invoke the 'click next' syndrome. If the user just takes the generated .config and just uses it, it will probably leave things out and then it won't work they'll be frustrated and stop.

Why don't people just work on improving kernel configuration documentation? If there are problems with the documentation fix those, don't develop another tool. Teach people how to configure a kernel. Teach them lspci or lsmod on the livecd. Work from that standpoint of learning, not something is hard let's make another tool.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:33 pm    Post subject: Different perspective Reply with quote

I just want to say that what I see in this thread is a lot of what turned me away from Redhat and Mandrake and Suse, the bad attitude that comes with some linux 1337s. I have been reading the gentoo forums for a while, not saying much but reading, and I normally find such a useful helpful attitude that is beautiful. These forums are the most newbie friendly I have ever seen. Why not share this with the masses. If you ever expect better driver support or games or a bios that can support sleep or hibernate in linux you need new recruits. The reason there are so many newbies here is because the forums are friendly. And as they learn they in turn WANT to help out. I am still learning and have already tried to contribute back with making some icons and a background image for gentoo. Why because Gentoo has embraced me and I in return want to help by embracing others. The kernel is a bit daunting at first. I don't think its hard but it is easy to leave something out. I for one would like a kernel configuration tool. Then I could just fire it up push a few buttons and then go to bed. It would be nice when setting up three computers with three completely different uses and hardware configurations. A pentium laptop an AMD XP desktop and an old 350mh k62 have different setups. I dont want to have to read through all the different settings to make sure I don't leave something out of each one. And yea if I knew more I could recycle the settings somewhat but again its easy to make a mistake. The real beauty of gentoo is after the install completed. And that beauty is appealing even to the newb.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

noff wrote:
Genone wrote:
About the kernel-autoconfiguration:

I think we have to wait and see waht it really does. If it is just an optional program / shell-script that has to be invoked manually and creates a kernel config based on the hardware found I'm ok with it. The main thing is that the installation docs have to point it out, so the user knows what it is doing and that it isn't perfect.

Even this sort of thing can invoke the 'click next' syndrome. If the user just takes the generated .config and just uses it, it will probably leave things out and then it won't work they'll be frustrated and stop.

Why don't people just work on improving kernel configuration documentation? If there are problems with the documentation fix those, don't develop another tool. Teach people how to configure a kernel. Teach them lspci or lsmod on the livecd. Work from that standpoint of learning, not something is hard let's make another tool.


I agree with you. But the kernel config menu is somewhat irritating in several parts. For instance, there are 3 submenus dealing with wlan cards. And the newest drivers are in some other packages. Similar for other hardware. And the default kernel config is crap, why not provide a gentoo default config with all options necessary for gentoo enabled ?
Of course the docs have to make clear that tool can make mistakes and that the config should really be reviewed. Maybe the tool can call "make menuconfig" itself, so the user is forced to do so.
I really understand your concerns, but for the moment the kernel config menu has some severe drawbacks and until it is changed we have to deal with it.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

telex4 wrote:
I think with an installer, a GUI with an embedded shell, which is split into two halves, one with documentation and buttons, and the other with a shell, might be nice. Each screen deals with a particular task (e.g. partitioning, stting up the base config files, kernel configuration, etc.) and has some autodetection features to make things safer (so users are less likely to get things wrong), with the explanations of what steps to take in the shell to set things up. It's a compromise :)


Despite hardware detection, what else can be autoconfigured ? I don't see any things where auto detection can take place. For the "split screen" thing I made a similar proposal in another thread to open a browser with the documentation on startup. I think that this would be more helpful than a GUI installer.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:26 pm    Post subject: The Middle Line Reply with quote

I don't mean to sound rude ... but ...

Providing the source code that drives Gentoo, the development team is wholly responsible for what options should and should not be included. As for my opinion, i think that this autoconfiguring is not a step backward, but one forward. To develop a user base, gentoo needs users. To attract users, one needs to provide as much variety and options as possible. Gentoo is currently one of the most versatile, and flexible distros around, and giving its users another option to set up the system is well within reason.

Imagine a corporation who lacks the funds to pay for windows, and can't afford to pay for the sluggishness of ... lets say ... redhat. Gentoo fits the bill as free, configurable, and fast. Trying to set up gentoo on each system a corporation might have would be costly in manpower, so the advent of such automated tools makes life easier.

As for the power users, and the elitists, forcing users to do things your way is wrong. I don't appreciate when i'm told what and what i cannot do. By maintaining such an inflexible attitude, you are trying to force all users who would like to use gentoo to use the current install system. I personally have not tried gentoo, as I am tied to a dial up modem with 40 hours of limited access a week. But i would be more than willing to continue with the rather complicated install, just to learn linux; but other users may not want to have to do that, or may already know how. A truly dynamic computer user will not be able to use gentoo, or be frustrated by the need to babysit it constantly, simply because he/she changes things around so much. Giving the users options isn't for ill, but for good. This autoconfiguring reduces the learning curve. Currently, Gentoo has a learning curve which should be suggested to new users, but does not need to be forced.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

noff, I see your point, but on the other hand, what about those who will simpy be unwilling/unable to figure out kernel configuration without some extra help? Seriously, unless I had done it with a friend, and with a stable kernel to fall back on, I would never have wanted to configure my own kernel. The number of options is astonishing, and pretty scary. What could possibly be wrong with something that provides peace of mind by auto-configuring a lot of it, encouraging the user the check through the options themselves and make changes where appropriate (e.g. module/kernel, any others)?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of the posts in this thread make me sick to my stomach, it makes me sad to read them and it makes me wanna stop working to promote Gentoo and Linux and to help people get their system working.

I have been working with Linux over 10 years and with UNIX over 20 years. My take on the whole thing is that anything that makes Linux easier to use, more accessible to a broader range of people is A Good Thing (Tm).

When I listen to people trying to protect their elitist thinking it sounds plainly ridiculous. Nobody, not even a new installation program nor a kernel configurator will take the good things away from gentoo, just add another product to aid the new users. They will eventually learn more and more about Linux and do more and more of the configuration the way the elitists in this thread do. Why is that a bad thing?

This will NOT reduce Gentoo's flexibilty and appeal to the bit-ficklers nor to the newbies.

Any new Linux user is a good thing to me. To these people a new (and not a Linux savvy) person is a BAD thing. I guess you guys feel they should stick with Windows because they don't know enough about Linux.

Let me ask the crowd this:
"How much did you know about Linxu when you started to use it?"
I bet none of you had any idea how to compile a kernel, nor how to trouble shoot a failed compile. This has to be learned and it that means lowering the treshold, I'm all for it.

Stop beeing such ...... <arrrrrggggghhhh, me mad!>

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ebrostig, you are a good man...

-edit-

All this bitching, and still nobody really knows what this "magic" autocompiler really does..
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I think some of the elitism here is just fear and lack of knowledge. People read about a kernel autoconfigurator in GWN and see hundreds of postings "Gentoo is crap, the kernel configurator don't work" coming because they don't know what this tool is intended to do exactly. Maybe this topic should have been explained more detailed in GWN (maybe a topic for the next GWN ?).
For myself, I made my fear about GUI installers clear in a posting above. It's not that I dislike GUIs in general, but I made bad experiences with them. If people don't know what they should do on a particular step they simply click "next" (I sometimes tend to it myself) rather than reading the docs. And if it does not work afterwards they blame the software.
I agree with you that we should make linux easier to use, as long as flexibility is guaranteed and we don't end up with a lot of complaining people (I really mean complaining, not searching support).
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still think a lot of us are saying the same thing, but to different degrees.

I think I can speak for the majority of "elitists" when I say, "Yes, go ahead and develop some autoconfiguration and GUI tools, but don't take away the install we know and love!"

There are people from both sides -- people that support wholesale autoconfiguration and one-click installs. You may have a point, but the more generalized installs become, the less Gentoo is Gentoo. There are other people, like me, that only did Gentoo instead of LFS because we wanted to keep up with packages in a halfway-sane manner.

I think all any of us can ask for is moderation -- we cannot go wholly to one side or the other without losing a great deal. I still think adding pciutils to the boot CD's and writing a knoppix install document would be two incredibly simple steps that would make so many of these installation problems go away. Then, we can step back, evaluate the impact, and move forward.

Step to the middle folks, let's get along!
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