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Albert_Alligator
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

/me cites Godwin's Law, laughs at Liberals' silly attempts to bait Americans into a "No we're not Nazis" debate once again.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LD wrote:
Honestly, they are under both the jurisdiction of the USMJ and US law.

Here's something for you non-military folk. An Example of what determines this. I'mgoing to qualify this though by saying I don't know how it works in a war zone enviroment like Iraq.

In South Korea we have a Status of Forces Agreement, or SOFA. This is basically a piece of paper saying what things Military folk can be under the jurisdiction of the Local Korean Authorities, and what is Military jurisdiction. In the United Arab Emmerates we do NOT have a SOFA with the local government. If you get pulled over for drunk driving or such your ass is the Emeraties. And they lash you for DUI.

Now, that is for situations where it's not a war zone. I don't know how it would work in Iraq where we are technically in a warzone and such.

And runningwithscissors, every post has assumed guilt, not innocence. Hell, every post I've seen has said anything that isn't a guilty verdict with anexecution is just the US protecting it's own. Thats as close to assuming guilt as you can get.

I do not doubt that the U.S. has forced the Iraqi puppet government into any number of strange agreements, giving their soldiers immunity to local laws and most likely the ICC as well.
What I /am/ saying is that it isn't right.

The crimes they are charged with were commited off duty, in another country. I can't honestly see any reasons why local law shouldn't be followed, anything else will only strengthen the international image that the U.S. believes themselves to be above all laws.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anior wrote:

I do not doubt that the U.S. has forced the Iraqi puppet government into any number of strange agreements, giving their soldiers immunity to local laws and most likely the ICC as well.
What I /am/ saying is that it isn't right.

The crimes they are charged with were commited off duty, in another country. I can't honestly see any reasons why local law shouldn't be followed, anything else will only strengthen the international image that the U.S. believes themselves to be above all laws.


We don't, nor will we likely ever, recognize the ICC. So whine, bitch and moan all you like about how we're not obeying the ICC..... we don't see the ICC as having any authority at all.

As for how this guy should be tried. It should be done by the US military as he was in an active combat zone and active in the military when he commited this offense.

As for our international image, we could care less what the rest of the world thinks.... we only shine you on so we can sell you shit. :lol:
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Albert_Alligator wrote:
..........


Translated:

We can be as bad as Nazis too, and you wouldn't be able to do a thing. Just be thankful that we aren't.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

runningwithscissors wrote:
Albert_Alligator wrote:
..........


Translated:

We can be as bad as Nazis too, and you wouldn't be able to do a thing. Just be thankful that we aren't.


You know, every time you invoke Hitler or Nazis, you lose the argument.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Albert_Alligator wrote:
runningwithscissors wrote:
Albert_Alligator wrote:
..........


Translated:

We can be as bad as Nazis too, and you wouldn't be able to do a thing. Just be thankful that we aren't.


You know, every time you invoke Hitler or Nazis, you lose the argument.


well, let's change examples

american can be as bad as these people and we wouldn't be able to do a thing.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GhePeU wrote:

well, let's change examples

american can be as bad as these people and we wouldn't be able to do a thing.


So you believe that our hunting down and killing of Jihadists (who by the way, have vowed to kill as many Americans as possible), is equivalent to genocide?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know we're not going to agree....but I can't resist anyway :P

Albert_Alligator wrote:
Anior wrote:

I do not doubt that the U.S. has forced the Iraqi puppet government into any number of strange agreements, giving their soldiers immunity to local laws and most likely the ICC as well.
What I /am/ saying is that it isn't right.

The crimes they are charged with were commited off duty, in another country. I can't honestly see any reasons why local law shouldn't be followed, anything else will only strengthen the international image that the U.S. believes themselves to be above all laws.


We don't, nor will we likely ever, recognize the ICC. So whine, bitch and moan all you like about how we're not obeying the ICC..... we don't see the ICC as having any authority at all.

So how can the US make the case.... "We're not really invading for oil/ power/ control/ **whatever the particular theory is**/ we're invading for democracy, the will of thethe UN, the upholding of international law/ **whatever your particular excuse is**" ?
Albert_Alligator wrote:

As for how this guy should be tried. It should be done by the US military as he was in an active combat zone and active in the military when he commited this offense.

Then if that's the case, there are one or two wars that the US has been involved in, why have the soldiers of those nations been sent before the ICC and not been tried by their own militaries? In the case listed above and the ICTY, why did the US hold those accused of crimes, be they Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian, and transfer them to the Hague for trial, and why do they continue to take actions against the aforementioned countries to force compliance with that court, for example the recent highly publicised cases of the Bosnian Serb Ratko Mladic or the Croatian Ante Gotovina? Everything the US states, be it reasons or actions, appears as nothing more than a blatant hypocrisy that it's not prepared to adhere to itself. One rule for America, another for the rest of the world.
Albert_Alligator wrote:

As for our international image, we could care less what the rest of the world thinks.... we only shine you on so we can sell you shit. :lol:

So if I shut up will you take "Friends" back? Please?! Pleeeeeaaaaaassseee?!?!?!

LD wrote:

Hell, every post I've seen has said anything that isn't a guilty verdict with anexecution is just the US protecting it's own. Thats as close to assuming guilt as you can get.
In my case, i'd point out that I do think they should be considered innocent until proven but, unless there is "a guilty verdict with an execution" for all of them, then unless that judicial process is completely open to scrutiny i:e televised around the world with transcripts available etc, then the US would leave itself open to such accusations. The only way to avoid it or at least lessen it would be an international court. Even an Iraqi court wouldn't be a failsafe since the court would in effect be appointed by politicians whose only claim to power is that they were put in place by America and already have previous accusations of interference against them. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4639488.stm and who then responded to that resignation by appointing Raouf Abdul Rahman as Judge, a man said to be "an ethnic Kurd from Halabja, the site of the 1988 Halabja poison gas attack" to a case which is supposed to be trying the man accused of the "1988 Halabja poison gas attack" . Hardly a good record of a free and unbiased judicial system.

Edit:

Albert_Alligator wrote:
GhePeU wrote:

well, let's change examples

american can be as bad as these people and we wouldn't be able to do a thing.


So you believe that our hunting down and killing of Jihadists (who by the way, have vowed to kill as many Americans as possible), is equivalent to genocide?

Yes. See Fallujah for one example. In an international court it would fit the criteria to be at least tried as such i:e the segregating of men and women followed by the subsequent attack. Again, innocent until proven, but the case would at least be investigated and brought before the courts rather than just ignored by a seeming "we don't do wrong, or if we do it's only one or two silly people" attitude that the US applies to itself.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Ennead wrote:
I know we're not going to agree....but I can't resist anyway :P


I know, it’s like a car crash….can’t seem to stop gawking….must …..resist…..
The Ennead wrote:

Albert_Alligator wrote:
Anior wrote:

I do not doubt that the U.S. has forced the Iraqi puppet government into any number of strange agreements, giving their soldiers immunity to local laws and most likely the ICC as well.
What I /am/ saying is that it isn't right.

The crimes they are charged with were commited off duty, in another country. I can't honestly see any reasons why local law shouldn't be followed, anything else will only strengthen the international image that the U.S. believes themselves to be above all laws.


We don't, nor will we likely ever, recognize the ICC. So whine, bitch and moan all you like about how we're not obeying the ICC..... we don't see the ICC as having any authority at all.

So how can the US make the case.... "We're not really invading for oil/ power/ control/ **whatever the particular theory is**/ we're invading for democracy, the will of thethe UN, the upholding of international law/ **whatever your particular excuse is**" ?

It’s the 1% rule. And it was an unfinished war. There was a cease fire, but never a cessation of hostilities, hence, the no-fly zone, US war planes being targeted multiple times a week, shot at several times over the years etc… We actually could have invaded Iraq much earlier since part of the terms of the cease fire was for Iraq to comply 100% with the cease fire agreement… they didn’t. We were finishing a job that started in Gulf-War I.

The Ennead wrote:
Albert_Alligator wrote:

As for how this guy should be tried. It should be done by the US military as he was in an active combat zone and active in the military when he committed this offense.

Then if that's the case, there are one or two wars that the US has been involved in, why have the soldiers of those nations been sent before the ICC and not been tried by their own militaries? In the case listed above and the ICTY, why did the US hold those accused of crimes, be they Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian, and transfer them to the Hague for trial, and why do they continue to take actions against the aforementioned countries to force compliance with that court, for example the recent highly publicised cases of the Bosnian Serb Ratko Mladic or the Croatian Ante Gotovina? Everything the US states, be it reasons or actions, appears as nothing more than a blatant hypocrisy that it's not prepared to adhere to itself. One rule for America, another for the rest of the world.

Do those countries exist? Yugoslavia fell apart and bands of former military formed groups loyal to Serbia, or Bosnia etc…. This problem escalated to terrible proportions, and finally, the only country with any nutsack at all stepped in and said enough is enough. If you don’t know who the country is who has a nutsack….. it ain’t any Euro country.
Finally, after we started the aerial smackdown, Nato stepped up…. And eventually the UN. We’re not going to judge what others chose to do or not do in regards to the ICC, but when it comes to our citizens, we will try them in our own courts….and if we see fit, render them to other countries for trial. But with soldiers, we will never submit to the ICC for any reason. If we see that a crime has been committed and hold a trial in our own military system, and the person is convicted, I say then, hand them over to whatever country they committed the offense in, and let them be tried by that country. But I only trust our military justice system to fairly prosecute our soldiers.
The Ennead wrote:

Albert_Alligator wrote:

As for our international image, we could care less what the rest of the world thinks.... we only shine you on so we can sell you shit. :lol:

So if I shut up will you take "Friends" back? Please?! Pleeeeeaaaaaassseee?!?!?!


You’re stuck with that shit….. you can keep ‘em.

The Ennead wrote:

LD wrote:

Hell, every post I've seen has said anything that isn't a guilty verdict with anexecution is just the US protecting it's own. Thats as close to assuming guilt as you can get.
In my case, i'd point out that I do think they should be considered innocent until proven but, unless there is "a guilty verdict with an execution" for all of them, then unless that judicial process is completely open to scrutiny i:e televised around the world with transcripts available etc, then the US would leave itself open to such accusations. The only way to avoid it or at least lessen it would be an international court. Even an Iraqi court wouldn't be a failsafe since the court would in effect be appointed by politicians whose only claim to power is that they were put in place by America and already have previous accusations of interference against them. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4639488.stm and who then responded to that resignation by appointing Raouf Abdul Rahman as Judge, a man said to be "an ethnic Kurd from Halabja, the site of the 1988 Halabja poison gas attack" to a case which is supposed to be trying the man accused of the "1988 Halabja poison gas attack" . Hardly a good record of a free and unbiased judicial system.

Edit:

Albert_Alligator wrote:
GhePeU wrote:

well, let's change examples

american can be as bad as these people and we wouldn't be able to do a thing.


So you believe that our hunting down and killing of Jihadists (who by the way, have vowed to kill as many Americans as possible), is equivalent to genocide?

Yes. See Fallujah for one example. In an international court it would fit the criteria to be at least tried as such i:e the segregating of men and women followed by the subsequent attack. Again, innocent until proven, but the case would at least be investigated and brought before the courts rather than just ignored by a seeming "we don't do wrong, or if we do it's only one or two silly people" attitude that the US applies to itself.


To hell with that, we gave the innocents ample time to get out….then we went in and killed the enemy. It’s a war. This is how war is fought. We kill as many of the enemy as possible. Don’t like it? Well cry me a river.:roll:
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Albert_Alligator wrote:
runningwithscissors wrote:
Albert_Alligator wrote:
..........


Translated:

We can be as bad as Nazis too, and you wouldn't be able to do a thing. Just be thankful that we aren't.


You know, every time you invoke Hitler or Nazis, you lose the argument.


How so? I never equated the American leadership with that of the Nazi party. I am just saying that the argument you keep putting forth, as in we will do whatever the fuck we want and whatever we think is the absolutely correct course of action can be used to even justify an ideology as extreme as the Nazis'.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

runningwithscissors wrote:
Albert_Alligator wrote:
runningwithscissors wrote:
Albert_Alligator wrote:
..........


Translated:

We can be as bad as Nazis too, and you wouldn't be able to do a thing. Just be thankful that we aren't.


You know, every time you invoke Hitler or Nazis, you lose the argument.


How so? I never equated the American leadership with that of the Nazi party. I am just saying that the argument you keep putting forth, as in we will do whatever the fuck we want and whatever we think is the absolutely correct course of action can be used to even justify an ideology as extreme as the Nazis'.


Godwin's Law wrote:

o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
wasn't necessary or germane without it necessarily being an
insult, it's probably about time for the thread to end.

o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
was vaguely related but is basically being used as an insult,
the speaker can be considered to be flaming and not debating.

o If someone brings up Nazis in any conversation that has been
going on too long for one of the parties, it can be used as
a fair excuse to end the thread and declare victory for the
other side.


It's not about equating American leadership with the Nazi party (although you did for all practical purposes). It's about invoking the Nazi name or Hitler as a means of making a point. It's a sign of weakness, not strength. And as shown above..... if that's the extent of your argument, I win.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Albert_Alligator wrote:
runningwithscissors wrote:
Albert_Alligator wrote:
runningwithscissors wrote:
Albert_Alligator wrote:
..........


Translated:

We can be as bad as Nazis too, and you wouldn't be able to do a thing. Just be thankful that we aren't.


You know, every time you invoke Hitler or Nazis, you lose the argument.


How so? I never equated the American leadership with that of the Nazi party. I am just saying that the argument you keep putting forth, as in we will do whatever the fuck we want and whatever we think is the absolutely correct course of action can be used to even justify an ideology as extreme as the Nazis'.


Godwin's Law wrote:

o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
wasn't necessary or germane without it necessarily being an
insult, it's probably about time for the thread to end.

o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
was vaguely related but is basically being used as an insult,
the speaker can be considered to be flaming and not debating.

o If someone brings up Nazis in any conversation that has been
going on too long for one of the parties, it can be used as
a fair excuse to end the thread and declare victory for the
other side.


It's not about equating American leadership with the Nazi party (although you did for all practical purposes). It's about invoking the Nazi name or Hitler as a means of making a point. It's a sign of weakness, not strength. And as shown above..... if that's the extent of your argument, I win.


well, I didn't know that Godwin's law had been accepted as an international law. Could you point me to the UN assembly resolution?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Albert_Alligator wrote:
GhePeU wrote:

well, let's change examples

american can be as bad as these people and we wouldn't be able to do a thing.


So you believe that our hunting down and killing of Jihadists (who by the way, have vowed to kill as many Americans as possible), is equivalent to genocide?


I'm saying that by refusing the ICC jurisdiction the Americans are putting their soldiers over the international law, and are protecting them no matter what they did, are doing or could possibly do in the future.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Albert_Alligator wrote:
As for our international image, we could care less what the rest of the world thinks.... we only shine you on so we can sell you shit. :lol:

And you still can't see why the rest of the world regard your country as a hopeless, uncivilised bully?

Albert_Alligator wrote:
The Ennead wrote:
Yes. See Fallujah for one example. In an international court it would fit the criteria to be at least tried as such i:e the segregating of men and women followed by the subsequent attack. Again, innocent until proven, but the case would at least be investigated and brought before the courts rather than just ignored by a seeming "we don't do wrong, or if we do it's only one or two silly people" attitude that the US applies to itself.


To hell with that, we gave the innocents ample time to get out….then we went in and killed the enemy. It’s a war. This is how war is fought. We kill as many of the enemy as possible. Don’t like it? Well cry me a river.:roll:

Kill everyone who might be in your way and laugh at everyone who objects?
And I though that this were about bringing democracy to the middle east and offering those people a more free tomorrow.

Your countries methods and motives just doesn't mix my friend.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good solder is deserting (if some one one day will force me to do some army service this is what I will do) or dead solder.
All military are more animals then humans, they have no rights. They just deserves to die because this is what they are signed for.

This kind of behavior (rape, murdering) do not surprise me then it came up to solders. This is the only thing they are capable of...
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charges against Green.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Albert_Alligator wrote:
But I only trust our military justice system to fairly prosecute our soldiers.


There is a reason why we had Nazi war criminals tried at nuremburg instead of by the SS. Now im not going to equate this or haditha to the holocaust, but its the reasoning behind it thats important.

We dont let nazis try nazi war criminals because nazis will probably be biased. Were not going to let the taliban try bin laden either. Our leaders seem to understand this concept, but it doesnt seem like they feel it applies to them. They either feel that they are genuinely unbiased and therefore there is no reason for our soldiers to go to international/local courts or they believe that because they have bigger guns than everyone else they can do whatever the fuck they want. Im going to place my money on the latter.

Today, the issue of people getting away with major warcrimes isnt pretty big. However, unless the military actively takes measures to ensure that our soldiers are given fair trials there will be a lot of room for abuse. Slowly but surely soldiers and their commanders will start to get away with more and more.

If the military is afraid that the mostly negative us image in the world is going to stop these soldiers from having a fair trial, then it should probably start working on its image. We can start by handing over these soldiers and others charged with war crimes in iraq to an international court. The soldier has the ability to make his case in front of the court and defend himself in exactly the same way as he would in a military court. However this time he will be tried by his peers in a fair trial that might have actual consequences.
Quote:
We kill as many of the enemy as possible. Don’t like it? Well cry me a river.:roll:
Oh, i thought we were giving them democracy.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Albert_Alligator wrote:

Godwin's Law wrote:

o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
wasn't necessary or germane without it necessarily being an
insult, it's probably about time for the thread to end.

o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
was vaguely related but is basically being used as an insult,
the speaker can be considered to be flaming and not debating.

o If someone brings up Nazis in any conversation that has been
going on too long for one of the parties, it can be used as
a fair excuse to end the thread and declare victory for the
other side.



That is simply the most irrational thing I've ever read. And I do read your posts, ocassionally.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tchak wrote:
A good solder is deserting (if some one one day will force me to do some army service this is what I will do) or dead solder.
All military are more animals then humans, they have no rights. They just deserves to die because this is what they are signed for.

This kind of behavior (rape, murdering) do not surprise me then it came up to solders. This is the only thing they are capable of...


I find this the mosst insulting and cowardly thing you can say about anyone willing to risk their lives for other people. Absolutly no respect for people who should a lot more courage and and honor in most everyday life then the general public is willing to sacrifice for anyone else.

Enned, I don't trust the ICC cause it's way too easy for other nations to charge soldiers under it. I don't have much faith with anything International these days because of a lot of the lack of will of the UN. Sorry, but screaming love for human rights, and then placing some of the worst abusers on the Human Rights council doesn't seem right to me.

US Civilian Courts are as open as you can get, unless there is a reason to put a seal on things during the trial. Courts martial are the same, and open to the same types of regs on information sharing as civilian courts.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was kinda on the fence about getting into this, but I decided to anyways.

From someone who was in the military and has seen his fair share of unethical and immoral conduct in other countries, I have to side with the truest sense of the word "justice". There are two sides to every story. Remember that. There is the Iraqi's perspective. Take it with a grain of salt. It's not that I want to not believe the Iraqi people. There are way to many X factores there to take into consideration.

#1 - This COULD be an insurgent sympethetic individual / group trying to gain the insurgents support and make it harder for the forces in Iraq.

#2 - This could be another 1/2 reported on, make the news up on the fly story that we have been subjected to time and time again.

#3 - This could be a true story that needs to be dealt with.

We all (americans at least) want to believe that nothing like this happens on the battlefield, but unless you have been there, you have no concept of what really goes on. Uncle Frank and Gradpa Joe's stories can only go so far in bringing light into what goes on BEHIND the scenes in a conflict. I have seen mass graves, people raping and killing their own women and childern in other countries (in 1998+) when I went to Bosnia and Kosovo. While I have to admit I was called into 3 court marshal hearings (as a witness) in the time I served in the US Armed Forces, and yes sometimes I was very embarrassed by the actions of certain soldiers, and at times, I have seen the enormous exaggeration of a simple circumstance turn horribly wrong and blown way out of proportion with some of the worst consequences you could imagine.

These son's and daughters deserve a FAIR trial, which I believe is hard to get in another countries legal system. I think (my own $.02) they should be brought infront of a panel of 8 judges (4 US and 4 Iraqi). Have their case heard and presented infront of them and then the 8 judges decide the fate of the soldiers. The reason for the 4 and 4 is so there is no way anyone can come back and say "You're not being fair because the judges panel was all more Iraqi or more American".

I realize that most of you have your opinions and I am not going to attack you on your belief's simply because I defended american belief's and helped defend other countries belief's when they could not defend themselves.

UCMJ and the MJS (Uniform Code of Military Justice and Military Judicial System) I'm on the fence about. UCMJ and MJS tends to believe that you are guilty until proven innocent. If you think that US laws are difficult and unfair, try being court martialed.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LD wrote:
.

Enned, I don't trust the ICC cause it's way too easy for other nations to charge soldiers under it. I don't have much faith with anything International these days because of a lot of the lack of will of the UN. Sorry, but screaming love for human rights, and then placing some of the worst abusers on the Human Rights council doesn't seem right to me.


The ICC can only try someone IF they have done something wrong. I let you fill in the blanks
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
LD wrote:
.

Enned, I don't trust the ICC cause it's way too easy for other nations to charge soldiers under it. I don't have much faith with anything International these days because of a lot of the lack of will of the UN. Sorry, but screaming love for human rights, and then placing some of the worst abusers on the Human Rights council doesn't seem right to me.


The ICC can only try someone IF they have done something wrong. I let you fill in the blanks


Andhow many times have I heard "IF you did nothing wrong you have nothing to fear" or something like it from folk around here decrying spying techniquees?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets see now...

The UK is a signatory of the ICC, The UK has troops in Iraq and we have not had any troops taken infront of the ICC


So what exactly does the US fear abt signing upto the ICC? could it be that they would have to hand over quite a few generals because they have commited war crimes? Isn't Sadam in court for war crimes?

Is this another one of these case of "do as we say NOT do as we do" from the US

The US are sooo appose to the ICC that they have even threatened countries signing up to it: cutting aid....


God bless America where the war criminal's can walk free living off aid ment for ppl that really need it


I mean the only other alternative is the US gov'n really are thinking in the best interest of it ppl and want to ensure that the governing body does not have too much power... now isn't that a liberal idololgy....

Ha the Americans are more liberal then the rest of us (or they are a bunch of war criminals)
personally I think a little from column A and a little from column B
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you assume this then, I can't help you. If the US were to storm the Hauge for one soldier, I wouldn't be against it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

assume what? that all Americans are liberals? the evedence is there
or there are Americans who have commitd war crimes, again the evedence is there

And yet again an American showing that the only way they can fix a problem is with violence. One day you will grow up.
The french gave you independance you could of at least learnt from them :roll: oh well
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