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atrus123
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:56 am    Post subject: What should we do to these soldiers? Reply with quote

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060701/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

Quote:
A group of American soldiers in an insurgent-riddled town allegedly noticed a young Iraqi woman when on patrol and later returned to rape her, according to U.S. officials Friday. In an apparent cover-up attempt, she and three members of her family then were killed and her body was set on fire.


I say turn them over to the Iraq courts rather than some gimp military court. There are times when I feel somewhere deep down that the death penalty might be a good thing, and this might be one them.
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dmitchell
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Investigate the allegations and bring charges if appropriate -- what else?

atrus123 wrote:
I say turn them over to the Iraq courts rather than some gimp military court. There are times when I feel somewhere deep down that the death penalty might be a good thing, and this might be one them.

There's no reason to turn them over to Iraqi courts, and I imagine it would be illegal to do so. (They are American citizens -- they have rights.) If found guilty of rape or murder, the Uniform Code of Military Justice allows the death penalty.

Here are links to the relevant sections of the UCMJ: Murder, Rape and Carnal Knowledge.
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Last edited by dmitchell on Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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runningwithscissors
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Proper trial and punishment, if found guilty, according to the laws of the country they are serving in.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
(They are American citizens -- they have rights.)


Unlike everyone else I take..
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

playfool wrote:
dmitchell wrote:
(They are American citizens -- they have rights.)


Unlike everyone else I take..

That's absurd.
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sugar
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a millitary matter. This has nothing to do with you. It belongs in the millitary courts.
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runningwithscissors
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
This is a millitary matter. This has nothing to do with you. It belongs in the millitary courts.


How so? It is not a military matter. What they are accused of has nothing to do with whether they serve in the military or not.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

runningwithscissors wrote:
sugar wrote:
This is a millitary matter. This has nothing to do with you. It belongs in the millitary courts.


How so? It is not a military matter. What they are accused of has nothing to do with whether they serve in the military or not.


Course it is. Do you want to charge them with murder everytime they kill someone.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technically we have no status of forces agreement (SOFA) with Iraq. However, military jurisdicition in this case is clear. This is a violation of the UCMJ and punishable as such. And has been noted, execution is a viable penalty if they are found guilty and this isn't just some crap story by someone.

Once again I ask why you aren't assuming innocence when that's what our system demands. This Guilty in all cases has ruined the lives of too many people, civilian and military.
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runningwithscissors
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
runningwithscissors wrote:
sugar wrote:
This is a millitary matter. This has nothing to do with you. It belongs in the millitary courts.


How so? It is not a military matter. What they are accused of has nothing to do with whether they serve in the military or not.


Course it is. Do you want to charge them with murder everytime they kill someone.


What they have been accused of is not simply a case of murder. Also, the victims do not seem to have posed any threat.

The crime has occurred within the jurisdiction of another country, and a proper trial should be held there.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

runningwithscissors wrote:
sugar wrote:
runningwithscissors wrote:
sugar wrote:
This is a millitary matter. This has nothing to do with you. It belongs in the millitary courts.


How so? It is not a military matter. What they are accused of has nothing to do with whether they serve in the military or not.


Course it is. Do you want to charge them with murder everytime they kill someone.


What they have been accused of is not simply a case of murder. Also, the victims do not seem to have posed any threat.

The crime has occurred within the jurisdiction of another country, and a proper trial should be held there.


*hides behind LD*
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Military court - then the death sentence. In fact for any proven case of murder, the death sentence - I'd probably extend hanging for the offence of rape as highlighted in the OP too.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:

*hides behind LD*


I only 'suggested' a trial in Iraq. I know that legalities may or may not allow this. That is a different issue. Same as a raped woman is punished instead of rapists in some Islamic countries. It may not necessarily be what should happen, but what really happens.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

parents.marines.com wrote:
With service to country comes the highest level of training and success


http://www.goarmy.com wrote:
Soldiers have plenty of options for fun, relaxation and learning.


warrior ethos wrote:
It makes us better people in general ....

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

radoslawc wrote:

warrior ethos wrote:
It makes us better people in general ....


Training people to KILL makes them better people in general... wow and people call me nuts.

The army, training you to be an obedient dehumanized savage - regressing mankind centuries, justifying murder, cruelty and inhumanity.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

playfool wrote:
radoslawc wrote:

warrior ethos wrote:
It makes us better people in general ....


Training people to KILL makes them better people in general... wow and people call me nuts.

The army, training you to be an obedient dehumanized savage - regressing mankind centuries, justifying murder, cruelty and inhumanity.


And completely necessary.
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they are guilty: shoot them.

If they are innocent: help to find the real perpetrator.

Problem with american soldiers and crimes:

even if they committed crimes or killed people out of neglegence, they were always 'protected' and got very lenient punishments.

You may ask the relatives of the persons died, when american pilots cut of a aerial passenger line....
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aidy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
Investigate the allegations and bring charges if appropriate -- what else?

atrus123 wrote:
I say turn them over to the Iraq courts rather than some gimp military court. There are times when I feel somewhere deep down that the death penalty might be a good thing, and this might be one them.

There's no reason to turn them over to Iraqi courts, and I imagine it would be illegal to do so. (They are American citizens -- they have rights.) If found guilty of rape or murder, the Uniform Code of Military Justice allows the death penalty.

Here are links to the relevant sections of the UCMJ: Murder, Rape and Carnal Knowledge.

ah I see thank you for your fantastic and superb insightfulness

I didn't know americans were the only ones with rights, next time I'll meet one, I'll act accordingly to my positition, that of a slave with no rights

but by the way, why can't those 'terrorists' in Guantanamo Bay be tried in their own country
'because they are terrorists blablabla terrorists have no rights' I hear you say
well.
don't you think that what those soldiers did is a form of terrorism? why can THEY be tried in their home country?

oh yes, I forgot, americans are the only ones with rights, and no one would of course think about giving those lower-than-monkeys arabs and iraqi's rights
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aidy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

radoslawc wrote:
parents.marines.com wrote:
With service to country comes the highest level of training and success


http://www.goarmy.com wrote:
Soldiers have plenty of options for fun, relaxation and learning.


warrior ethos wrote:
It makes us better people in general ....

oh my god
americans are so fucked up
it's so crazy they don't realize they live in a sort of nazi regime
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RBH
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
runningwithscissors wrote:
sugar wrote:
This is a millitary matter. This has nothing to do with you. It belongs in the millitary courts.


How so? It is not a military matter. What they are accused of has nothing to do with whether they serve in the military or not.


Course it is. Do you want to charge them with murder everytime they kill someone.

They are killing "for their country".

Are they raping for their country too? God Bless America(tm).
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Bill Cosby
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aidy wrote:
but by the way, why can't those 'terrorists' in Guantanamo Bay be tried in their own country
'because they are terrorists blablabla terrorists have no rights' I hear you say

No, because they are not "tried" (is this the right word?) at all.
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gotaserena
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just ask if you'd allow the perpretators to be judged by Iraqi justice if the roles were reversed...

Oh, wait, this've already happened. You'd smuggle the Iraqi soldiers to Guantánamo then...
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well I do agree that the trial should be in iraq abd it should be open for at least some members the the communitty to attend but it should be a millitary trial. That way the relatives and respected ppl's will see that it was a fair trial. Something they are probably not very accustomed to and should hopefully be able to expect as the norm in the future. Plus they will also see whether there is proof of guilt. Remember that is the iraqi ppl (or the iraqi town) that need justice to be served. Its no good serving it america.

But I must say that the punishment should fit the crime. It will not help the US efforts in any country to slap perpertrators of serious crimes with a wet bus ticket.

On a personal note.

If I had the choice I would tie them up and leave them on the streets of iraq with a sign saying 'Free to a Good or Bad terrorist'. But then Im someone who couldn't read past the first few pages of the elephant song because it made me feel sick to even think about the rape of little girls.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What should or will happen isn't the same thing. They have immunity from prosecution by virtue of being American military so the only people that could try them would be the American military. That is probably what will happen but as in previous cases, if found guilty, it's highly unlikely that any sentence would be anything other than what the US thinks it can get away with i:e the sentence will be political and based on trying to find a balance between protecting the soldiers to some extent, but not wanting to piss off other soldiers to a greater extent, and then, the publics demand for justice to be done or seen to be done. If the media hang the soldiers before the trial, the soldiers are screwed, if they don't, anything could happen. It's the same situation in effect, as with the British police who unlawfully shot a terrorist suspect. You punish them, the Police threaten refusal to use firearms etc etc. You don't punish them, the public knows you're taking the piss.

What should happen, is that it's a war crime in and it should be tried accordingly by an independent court set up to enforce that. Unfortunately the US has no regard whatsoever for international law or the Geneva Convention so that won't happen. It should be noted that the Geneva Convention does allow for them to be tried by a court where it has been shown that the courts of that nation will act according to the relevant guidelines i:e In this case, if it had been shown that there was equivalence between an international court and a US court and the matter would be dealt with in the same way. Personal opinion? I think previous cases, lack of investigations, etc, etc, has shown the US isn't capable of acting with equivalence. Most people found guilty of anything get away with a slap on the wrist, literally thousands of accusations haven't been investigated, those which have been investigated have been shown to be biased to a ridiculous degree in favour of the soldiers.

In short, the trial will be a show trial. The verdict is unlikely to reliable whichever way it goes. The sentence will be political. Next case please. Repeat ad infinitum.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not trying to sir the shit too much.. but think of it this way too.. okay we turn theese people over to the Iraqi court... youll never know for certin of justice was done because theyll just get killed no matter what. HELL the military can not even go into the buildings with the Iraqi army nor Police to help they clear it... why becase they police will just kill the soldiers trying to help them... the locals constantly try to steal from and beat troops for no reason. The troops are ambushed often... and many many die... why because the locals dont like america... Now true if they did do anything they do deserve to be punished... but they also deserve a fair and impartial trial... In all seriousness the troops are there doing a job... their job isnt the most savory and it is very stressful... its a level of stress most people dont nor will ever see... hell you try voulenteering for something to improve your life, then every waking moment get pumped with training about all the stuff that theese chemicals and crap can do to you, then in between all of that you are getting attacked from all sides, and not knowing wiether that guy on the roof is on the cell phone with his wife, or on the phone with his freind calling mortars down on your position... its the same thing that happened in korea pretty much... its hard to tell who are the good guys who are the bad guys... and the soldiers are getting caught in the middle of it all... and when some one reaches their breaking point and does something stupid every one immidately wants to just push all their rights aside and throw them to the dogs... besides people the punishment is gonna tend to be harder any way because the military is catching flack from all the stupid shit that is happening... and BTW atleast we send our enemy to prison not turn on a video camera and send the tape of their head being hacked off with a dull sword or a hacksaw to all the local news outlets.. ;) soo chew on that one for a second before you want to strip theese people of their right to a trial...

and that is me done being the advocate here... because a lot of this soldier bashin pisses me off but I can agree on one thing with The Ennead, it will be a total a dog and pony show and they will not get the sentance they deserve if guilty because they dont want to piss the troops off that are already mad that they are even there in the first place... and just soo you know The Ennead, the UNs court of nations or whatever its called (i really dont rember) was set infront of the US congress, then the Supreme Court and the supreme court gave back the changes that needed to be done inorder to make it constitutonal.. as it stands the UN said we will not change it soo its not currently constiutional.. and if we enacted legislation to follow it some bone head would standup and cry foul ;)
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Last edited by kusuriya on Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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