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j1
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:10 am    Post subject: Gentoo and "freenode" Reply with quote

After going through my inbox, I came across a message that resurrected a topic that I've been meaning to bring up.

The following was sent to the full-discloser mailing list Tue Jun 27 03:35:19 BST 2006.
[Full-disclosure] The truth about Rob Levin aka Lilo of irc.freenode.net

mod edit: Full repost of the mail removed because some people were unhappy with the full details of the mail being reposted here. It also broke line wrapping for me. ;)
Anyway, here's the whole mail archived by seclists.org:
http://seclists.org/lists/fulldisclosure/2006/Jun/0843.html
Hope this solution makes everyone happy.
amne


Time for gentoo to dump freenode? I for one would welcome the idea, or at least serious consideration.

I've always wondered why it's still used by the FOSS community.

Care, don't care, thoughts?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a (weak) defense of Freenode, it seems to me that the vast majority of channels on it are dedicated to FOSS projects. That alone should count for something. You won't find that on EFnet, or Undernet, or any other network for that matter. Now, that's not to say that something like Freenode (but much more secure) couldn't be built just for FOSS projects, but at the current moment that alternative network doesn't exist, AFAIK.

Now, the Gentoo project as a whole probably has the resources to create their own network, possibly accessible through irc.gentoo.org or something like that. But that's an administrative headache that I'm not sure anyone in the project would want to shoulder. It's a thought, though. I bet the reason why this hasn't been done yet is that Freenode was available, and they didn't want to reinvent the wheel since the problems with Freenode were unknown at the outset.

Here's my $0.02, take it or leave it.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ectospasm wrote:
In a (weak) defense of Freenode, it seems to me that the vast majority of channels on it are dedicated to FOSS projects. That alone should count for something.


This is true. It's the official network of GNU, which I find odd considering Levin is running it. It isn't like he's recently morphed into this person who's values seem to conflict the those of the FOSS community.

ectospasm wrote:
You won't find that on EFnet, or Undernet, or any other network for that matter. Now, that's not to say that something like Freenode (but much more secure) couldn't be built just for FOSS projects, but at the current moment that alternative network doesn't exist, AFAIK.


This is what I'd like to see - and I realize it isn't limited to gentoo; this is just one of the few forum accounts that I've felt the urge to open -- a real FOSS IRC server. In other words, like freenode, but without a POS running it. I think the open source community could put together one that is better by ten fold.

ectospasm wrote:
Now, the Gentoo project as a whole probably has the resources to create their own network, possibly accessible through irc.gentoo.org or something like that. But that's an administrative headache that I'm not sure anyone in the project would want to shoulder. It's a thought, though. I bet the reason why this hasn't been done yet is that Freenode was available, and they didn't want to reinvent the wheel since the problems with Freenode were unknown at the outset.

Here's my $0.02, take it or leave it.


I'm curious as to the cost of running such a network. This is a good idea, however, I'd like to see a more general network that could include all open source projects, not just gentoo -- not to say I wouldn't take a irc.gentoo.org over freenode any day.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess the question is why not irc.linux.org or irc.gnu.org or whatever? IMHO no project should truly be distro dependant...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drwook wrote:
I guess the question is why not irc.linux.org or irc.gnu.org or whatever? IMHO no project should truly be distro dependant...

Indeed. But it should go beyond just linux. irc.foss.org would be ideal. However, you do have to start somewhere, and moving from freenode would be just that.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've only recently heard about oftc, but that could be an alternative, as it's also dedicated to free and open source projects. I think it's the network that Debian uses, too.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's the first I've heard of it too. And it does look like a good alternative. Theres already a small #gentoo. Lets get the ball rolling...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maedhros wrote:
I've only recently heard about oftc, but that could be an alternative, as it's also dedicated to free and open source projects. I think it's the network that Debian uses, too.

Yep Debian is switching to OFTC, already they are at OFTC but still exist in FreeNode I think in the future they will completely move to oftc. OFTC is a sister project of debian community
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As to me, I really don't see the problem with Freenode.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

irc.gentoo.org links to freenode.

Code:
 # ping irc.gentoo.org
PING kornbluth.freenode.net (82.96.64.4) 56(84) bytes of data.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been on OFTC for some time now and like it...
There is #gentoo channels there although not populated as the ones on freenode... too bad in my opinion...
I, for one, like oftc...
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bunder wrote:
irc.gentoo.org links to freenode.

Code:
 # ping irc.gentoo.org
PING kornbluth.freenode.net (82.96.64.4) 56(84) bytes of data.


I think the thought was to create our own irc.gentoo.org. The reason it links to freenode now is because freenode is gentoo's "official" irc network.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My response:
Who cares? So what?

Even if all this is true, all it shows is lilo appears to be living the "American Dream" of making money for almost no work. Congratulations! Wish I was doing it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AllenJB wrote:
My response:
Who cares? So what?

Even if all this is true, all it shows is lilo appears to be living the "American Dream" of making money for almost no work. Congratulations! Wish I was doing it.

Exactly, I really don't see the problem.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kensai wrote:
Yep Debian is switching to OFTC

I feel obliged to point out that in Debian's case the move was first and foremost a practical decision intended to reduce the long-standing split of Debian-related channels between FreeNode and OFTC, not a principled stand against Rob Levin's chosen lifestyle.

Such a large proportion of the developer body had already taken issue with FreeNode's policies (one of them being lilo's fundraising drives, yes, but also technical disagreements over such things as NOIDPRIVMSG being enabled by default) that as new channels sprang up, many of them chose to establish themselves on OFTC instead. Moreover, some major channels had just split fairly evenly over both networks (e.g. #debian-devel) - this meant that even those devs who didn't feel strongly enough to move to OFTC themselves had to connect to it anyway in order to keep in touch with the large number who'd already made the switch.

In Gentoo's case there doesn't seem to be such a large pre-existing split between the two networks (correct me if I'm wrong) so there's no justification to switch to OFTC on those grounds, nor any justification for anyone in authority taking a principled stance on behalf of the developer corpus - come on; if the devs really did hate Rob Levin that much they'd've voted with their feet and moved over to OFTC of their own accord, just as the Debian devs did.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm completely satisfied with Freenode. If the FreeNode people want to make some cash while they're at it, more power to them. I probably would too if offered. :)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find many aspects of freenode quite annoying. :x

People are donating to PDPC for lilo to sit on IRC 24/7. I'm not saying if he does a good job or not, however I dislike the fact that people are donating to this project just to run an IRC network. Nearly every other network survives with administrators who run the network in their spare time, including the other staff from freenode. All the money raised goes directly to lilo, all the servers on the network are donated to him to run an IRC server.

There are perfectly good alternative networks available, however getting users to switch to them because they aren't bothered can be a problem.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q-collective wrote:
AllenJB wrote:
My response:
Who cares? So what?

Even if all this is true, all it shows is lilo appears to be living the "American Dream" of making money for almost no work. Congratulations! Wish I was doing it.

Exactly, I really don't see the problem.


Well speak for yourself.

I've just uninstalled Gentoo because, well let me keep him anonymous for now, but I'm sure anyone here with any sense of principles or decency will follow suit.

So "Joe Bloggs" - a senior and important figure within the distro :-

(a) Isn't a coder! - This is like shagging a dog, only worse! Unless you are another dog in which case it's far worse.
(b) Once went on a caravan holiday but secretly lives in a house!- The scum sucking liar!
(c) Has a username that sounds like an inflatable bed - Pervert!
(d) Has a maid! Need I say more? Why can't he get married or live at home and let his wife / mother clean up like any normal person?

Sheesh kebab, they'll be saying X11's license means the project needs to be developed by someone else next. Oh.

Next week, "Why you should get your kernel from me, and not from that share owning, bmw driving linus torvalds character. More shock revelations behind the open source movement"
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

once again, kids, stay off the crack.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

leahcim wrote:
Q-collective wrote:
AllenJB wrote:
My response:
Who cares? So what?

Even if all this is true, all it shows is lilo appears to be living the "American Dream" of making money for almost no work. Congratulations! Wish I was doing it.

Exactly, I really don't see the problem.


Well speak for yourself.

I've just uninstalled Gentoo because, well let me keep him anonymous for now, but I'm sure anyone here with any sense of principles or decency will follow suit.

So "Joe Bloggs" - a senior and important figure within the distro :-

(a) Isn't a coder! - This is like shagging a dog, only worse! Unless you are another dog in which case it's far worse.
(b) Once went on a caravan holiday but secretly lives in a house!- The scum sucking liar!
(c) Has a username that sounds like an inflatable bed - Pervert!
(d) Has a maid! Need I say more? Why can't he get married or live at home and let his wife / mother clean up like any normal person?

Sheesh kebab, they'll be saying X11's license means the project needs to be developed by someone else next. Oh.

Next week, "Why you should get your kernel from me, and not from that share owning, bmw driving linus torvalds character. More shock revelations behind the open source movement"

Oh, that's nice! ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: Gentoo and "freenode" Reply with quote

j1 wrote:
After going through my inbox, I came across a message that resurrected a topic that I've been meaning to bring up.

The following was sent to the full-discloser mailing list Tue Jun 27 03:35:19 BST 2006.
[Full-disclosure] The truth about Rob Levin aka Lilo of irc.freenode.net

mod edit: Full repost of the mail removed because some people were unhappy with the full details of the mail being reposted here. It also broke line wrapping for me. ;)
Anyway, here's the whole mail archived by seclists.org:
http://seclists.org/lists/fulldisclosure/2006/Jun/0843.html
Hope this solution makes everyone happy.
amne


Time for gentoo to dump freenode? I for one would welcome the idea, or at least serious consideration.

I've always wondered why it's still used by the FOSS community.

Care, don't care, thoughts?


Aside from the recent security scare, I've never had a problem with Freenode. It's the "One Stop Shop" for F/OSS chat. But this anonymous post about Mr. Levin is just National Enquirer/Fox News-esque. When I read paragraphs like the following, it seems like just a vendetta against Levin that some anonymous coward is perpetrating:

Quote:
Rob and his wife both suck at the teat of the federal government by
collecting disability. They both claim to have ADHD so intense that it
prohibits them from holding a job. During the day, they go to the PDPC
trailer to chat on IRC and answer phonecalls. Two disability checks and PDPC
donations add up. Enough to pay for not only a reasonable apartment and the
PDPC trailer, but for a Hispanic nanny to take care of their son and clean
their house during the day.[5] Not only do they not feel it fitting to work
at any task whatsoever, but they can't even raise their child and clean up
for themselves.

<snip>

[5] I would cite the name, phone and address of the nanny but I do not feel
it fitting that she should be harassed.


Do you not expect that the person who runs Freenode make *any* money? Do people with disabilities only deserve to live in squalor? Should disabled people not have nannies?!? And, with the poor evidence this AC brings to the table, he has the gall to accuse Levin and his partner of not raising their child well?!? This is just High Trolling. It is disappointing that this thread is linked to from the GWN.

I say: Consider the source of this, and give credence appropriately. Each project can (obviously) freely consider which is their favorite IRC host. But the reasons listed in this e-mail seem quite biased, much of the accusations appear unfounded, and the source is questionable. I'm a paid upporter of Freenode, and haven't had reason to regert that, thus far, though I am concerned about their security policies going forward.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Gentoo and "freenode" Reply with quote

NightMonkey wrote:
Aside from the recent security scare, I've never had a problem with Freenode.

Speaking of security, FreeNode's lack of SSL support was another strong argument in favour of Debian switching to OFTC. Forgot to mention that; whoops. :-)

NightMonkey wrote:
Do you not expect that the person who runs Freenode make *any* money?

I reckon this post puts it better:

Cord Beermann wrote:
I strongly second to move to OFTC.

why? lilo spammed me some years ago to get some funding for freenode (which ment in that case that he wanted to be paid for running freenode), so i decided to not use it. Nothing against funding, and adding notes to websites and motds, but getting a daily wallop was annoying.

Methinks the problem's not so much the begging, more his being (or having been, at least) too in-your-face about it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So lilo has done enough in the world to get National Enquireresque articles written about him.

Thats better than any of you have done.

He does a good job managing a network that is larger in scope than many networks out there, and it is maintained better than the other existing mega-networks (dalnet,efnet,blahblahblah). It has downtime and problems, but I cannot think of a large network that doesn't.

In addition, if one was to considder switching networks, there are a number of major problems.

1) Getting the word out. People don't notice updates for major packages, how would they know we have a new network.
2) Infrastructure. Gentoo is one of the largest irc communities in existance. Many networks would not be able to support such a large group of people, and we would have more downtime and problems.
3) Services. Any switch to a network of some scope would have people with registered nicks the same as those of developers and users. People are known by these nicks, asking them to change them just because one has a personal vendetta against lilo is one of the least sensible ideas I have heard.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

parallelgrapefruit wrote:
1) Getting the word out. People don't notice updates for major packages, how would they know we have a new network.

This wouldn't pose too much of a problem:
    1) A fair whack of people just connect to irc.gentoo.org, anyway, so they'd make the move without even being aware of it if irc.gentoo.org were changed to point at irc.oftc.net instead.
    2) Announcements could be made on the forums, mailing lists, website, GWN etc.
    3) The old channels on FreeNode need not be abandoned altogether, and the channel topics could be changed to inform people of the move. (This is what Debian have done.)
parallelgrapefruit wrote:
2) Infrastructure. Gentoo is one of the largest irc communities in existance. Many networks would not be able to support such a large group of people, and we would have more downtime and problems.

This isn't true. The Gentoo IRC community is insignificant compared to the total amount of traffic that any reasonably-sized network is already handling. Debian's IRC footprint is certainly in the same ballpark, and the OFTC was hardly driven to its knees by their redirecting traffic in its direction.

parallelgrapefruit wrote:
3) Services. Any switch to a network of some scope would have people with registered nicks the same as those of developers and users. People are known by these nicks

This is a fair point. Of course, the actual number of nick collisions would be needed in order to judge how much of a problem this'd actually be.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

parallelgrapefruit wrote:

In addition, if one was to considder switching networks....


What I couldn't believe, in retrospect, is that I read this thread because someone at gentoo considered it, amongst all the other potential threads in these forums that could have been "heard in the community", actually worth pointing to, in the gentoo weekly news.

It reminded me of this http://www.linuxpipeline.com/163104408

Along with that placement a comment that seemed to suggest this thread is somehow a valid conversation about "the service freenode provides" to gentoo?

Although I think there is such a thing as a valid conversation / thread to be had on that subject and indeed a few comments are in that vein, I think this thread should be treated with the disdain it deserves.

A thousand valid reasons why gentoo should or shouldn't use freenode won't ever make the post that started this thread right nor, imho, worth entertaining as though it had a valid point or question to raise.

C'mon, the moderators have done the right thing already, but let next week's gentoo news 'heard in the community' hear the community saying "They're better things in our community for gentoo news to find than threads with petty mud slinging..."
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