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| How alive/dead is Gentoo for you? (Only vote, if you use Gentoo for at least one year.) |
| Even better than ever |
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42% |
[ 98 ] |
| Hasn’t changed much |
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23% |
[ 54 ] |
| Could be better |
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24% |
[ 55 ] |
| In bad shape, there’s not much left |
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9% |
[ 21 ] |
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| Total Votes : 228 |
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Gergan Penkov
Veteran
Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 1464
Location: das kleinste Kuhdorf Deutschlands :)
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 Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Yes, it means that probably it is exploitable itself:
readelf -d the_files
and look where these rpath-tags lead if it is somewhere userwritable or nonexistent  it is a real problem, there was sth like chrpath which could be used to change them.
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petrjanda
Veteran
Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 1557
Location: Brno, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| curtis119 wrote: |
This is true, there are many many thousands of Gentoo usrs who never even bother to sign up for a forum account. Many of the gentoo devs for instance.
DragonflyBSD is a very good distro from what I have read. Flameeyes seems to like it a lot. Maybe you can join the Gentoo/ALT project and help with the gentoo/dragonflyBSD port that he is working on.
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Thanks for confirming it.
However, as for the Gentoo/DFBSD port, I dont see much use for it as we already have pkgsrc and frankly I, and most people, believe it to be superior to ports or portage. Roughly 95% of ports in pkgsrc compile on dragonfly which is 2nd to only NetBSD itself. It also lacks the typical portage bloat with keywords and masking and has an equivalent of portage's USE flags. I would even say that pkgsrc's "USE flags" are better implemented than the ones in portage.
Or is this project about running the DragonFly kernel in Linux userland? If so that would be a really difficult project as DragonFly is slowly moving towards a hybrid-microkernel design.
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John-Boy
Guru
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 442
Location: Desperately seeking moksha in all the wrong places
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| petrjanda wrote: | | Some people don't post on forums. Gentoo has probably a few thousands of users that never spent more than 10 minutes in here. Nothing wrong with that. |
Agreed, but didn't the OP say that he'd posted fixes to the forums ?
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c0r0
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 81
Location: Jakarta -Indonesia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:24 am Post subject: |
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xixixi nice thread, i just found it accidentally 
at least 3 years for being member of gentoo forums and 1st post ?? absolutly great, hey did he write the password in another account ??
beat me twice haha 
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amne
Bodhisattva
Joined: 17 Nov 2002
Posts: 6378
Location: Graz / EU
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broken_chaos
Guru
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 370
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Solicitous wrote: | ...
!!! Digest verification failed:
!!! /usr/portage/app-antivirus/vlnx/vlnx-432e-r2.ebuild
!!! Reason: Filesize does not match recorded size
!!! Got: 1660
!!! Expected: 1661
... |
Since it wasn't noticed, your problem wasn't the size of the downloaded files, it was the size of that ebuild that you edited (read that error carefully).  Changing that "kane" to "ftp" accounts for the single byte difference.
As to the OP's concerns... You're complaining about an unpopular package, that seems to have a relatively simple fix (the file was found elsewhere - download it to /usr/portage/distfiles yourself, and you wouldn't even have to edit the ebuild), and it's a closed-source package, from a large company - no one really has a vested interest in maintaining the ebuild (unlike some ebuilds which are actually created/maintained by the program's devs). Plus there are open-source virus scanners that could have been considered - ClamAV is very good, for example.
Gentoo's portage tree does have some lack of maintainers for some packages, but most packages can be updated to the most recent version very easily - do it yourself by taking 30 minutes, tops. I've done this on multiple occasions when the package wasn't in portage yet, and I needed the new feature(s). Often the package was added a few days later, so I switched to that version.
As for the system breaking, I can honestly say I've never had any major breakages. Most were minor things that a revdep-rebuild, a configuration change (the issues this solved were almost always user error issues), or even just a simple reboot would solve. I've never had my system unable to boot from something that I didn't do. I mean, if my system is going to break, I'd damn well better have done it myself!
The only time I didn't break my system completely by myself was a bug in Diablo II under Wine where it (for some unknown reason) tries to overwrite the first 512 bytes (MBR) of /dev/hda. Which I'd accidentally left writeable by my normal user. Whoops. A LiveCD boot, grub-install, and removal of myself from the disk group solved that one in short order. |
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Nai
n00b
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| enderandrew wrote: | If it is broke, you likely broke it. If this user couldn't get Gentoo to work, my OPINION is that he didn't attempt to utilize Gentoo's greatest strength, the community. There is plenty of help via the forums, mailing lists, documentation and IRC channels.
In the case of the ebuild, you have a very valid point. I'm glad you brought it to people's attention. But there are TONS and TONS of ebuilds, that all have to be updated with new patches and new builds. People do this as volunteers. If one thing isn't perfect, that doesn't mean the entire distro is ruined. It means an ebuild hasn't received the proper attention it deserves.
The best way to go about it, is to fix the ebuild so it does download correctly, submit it to Bugzilla, and even if it gets ignored, other people can download your fix. |
Heaven forbid the package maintainers actually maintain their packages...
"Fix it yourself" should not be the answer - if a person signs on to make and maintain a package, they should do so, or it should be moved, or as indicated, removed from stable when it breaks.
| Solicitous wrote: | | Ranting I think is fine for people to do if they've exhausted all possible channels before hand. As been noticed, randy_waterhouse has only 1 post (this thread). Now not trying to belittle the guy, but I don't think his rant holds alot of water. Are there any posts anywhere or any signs of where he tried to get help to solve his problems? For people to help you, you really need to help yourself first. |
There's a bug report where others are trying to get it fixed. It's been 5 months, and from what you posted, it needs a simple change on the hostname. Why is that so hard for the package maintainer to do? Why must the users fix what isn't their responsibility?
The attitude that the "community" makes errors OK is a horrible one. "Oh, it doesn't matter if two dozen packages on a system are broken, he has a community to help him fix them!"
| Solicitous wrote: | | I just think people need to be grown up enough to ask for help rather than get all crabby when things don't work right out of the box for them. |
And I think you should re-read his post. He's not whining that nothing works out of box, he's complaining that errors are pointed out for things, and nobody is fixing them. |
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curtis119
Bodhisattva
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 2160
Location: Toledo, Ohio,USA, North America, Earth, SOL System, Milky Way, The Universe, The Cosmos, and Beyond.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| Nai wrote: |
Heaven forbid the package maintainers actually maintain their packages...
"Fix it yourself" should not be the answer - if a person signs on to make and maintain a package, they should do so, or it should be moved, or as indicated, removed from stable when it breaks.
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In an ideal world this would true. However, Gentoo devs are all volunteers so they don't always have the time.
And yes, "fix it yourself" actually is a valid answer. Gentoo is a "community" distribution. If you use Gentoo you are part of the community...
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Gentoo: it's like wiping your ass with silk. |
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randy_waterhouse
n00b
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6
Location: SF Bay Area, California
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:56 pm Post subject: The Original poster replies. (LONG, MUCH < PISSED) |
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Hi, all. Seems I set off more than a little discussion. Let me address (especially now that I've calmed down, and have a much lower B.A.C. as well as adrenaline level) some of the wiser comments - and some of the stupider.
A) To those of you who said "he's only posted once" - fair enough comment, if it were true. However (and you couldn't have known this), in the first couple of years of using Gentoo, when I was happy and enthusiastic and helpful, I posted a bunch of forum comments - and SOLVED's. After slacking off, I lost the password to that Forum nym. Found this one in my notes.txt file and used it to post my diatribe.
B) Those of you who said "troll-post" - wrong, uninteresting, low-hanging-fruit, and zarroo-meta-points. (I've been meta-moderating AND moderating /. since before a few of the non-compos-mentises who attacked me, with sorry spelling, had their first zit. I know what a troll is. They don't.) Let me single out the most useless responses: nightmorph (a Gentoo developer - methinks perhaps the gentleman doth protest too much - even if his sig is pretty clever), xPAGANx, menelmacar,
C) Aries-Belgium - désolé que vous êtes fatigué de "ces posts". Peut-être il n'y aurait pas tellement beaucoup si mes plaintes étaient non fondées. (And sorry if you're from the walloon side, A-B - het spijt me, ik spreek geen Vlaams.)
D) | Quote: | Hm. If I got what he said correctly, ebuilds need to be of better quality.
Some of these are good to read, to show why some try it for a while and REALLY don't like it (not just "It's not what I'm used to whaaaaaaa"). |
Valkura - you pegged it.
Let me ask you - when people bitch to Toyota that their car sucks, that the dash rattles and the power mirror won't work - is it really smart for Toyota to say "f*** 'im - he's just trolling"? (Hint: the answer is "no".) And - let me ask all you folks who bitch-slapped me with your reply - have YOU ever posted an angry gripe about a product you're just sick of? Fired off an angry e-mail to a company?
Lemme tell you about the right way to think about, and respond to, angry customers. I have an HP zd7010 I paid a LOT for. It makes more noise than a Harrier taking off vertically. So I don't use it. I finally got a little upset I had a US $2,000 paperweight, and asked a buddy of mine (who happens to be the editor of PC World) what to do. He put me in touch with a little-known support line at HP (used to be called "Carly's line"). I sent them a cranky note about why I don't use their product any more, but was specific as to what was wrong with it and needed improvement. Within 3 hours, I had a rep call me (no waiting on hold), and they're shipping me a full replacement. I'm going from a P4 power-sucker to an Athlon Turion 64-bit, FSB from 533 to 1800, 20GB bigger HD, far better vid-card, 1-lb lighter, and a double-layer DVD. And - they thanked me for my input, and asked if I'd be willing to help evaluate product designs in the future. Yeah - knowing my friend at PC World helped get the right number. But the key point is this - an angry customer is also often a function of a bad product - and is free market research - and an opportunity to improve. Not always just a troll.
So - yeah - I was venting my spleen a little. CoffeeBuzz got the message nicely, though (thanks, bud): I was also maybe hoping that a few key project leaders might read it and say "hey - this guy's at least not a total PEBCAK, he's dealt with Gentoo for 4 years, and if he's going to go to the hassle of switching distros - maybe we need to look at how to address some of those concerns. In fact - maybe we have an "iceberg" problem - how many people get fed up and simply quit, without bothering to let us know, or why?" (I might also mention, not to stroke myself, but going to credibility, that I've been a VP of Sales and Marketing at 5 or 6 Silicon Valley software & security companies, have a top-3 MBA, and 15 years in the industry, focused on making customers happy with the software I'm selling 'em.)
E) sugar & curtis119: | Quote: | | When you come crawling back (as you will!), remember to flame your new distro as you go. We need the PR. |
Ummm...yeah. And, when someone hates their Chrysler CAUSE IT BREAKS A LOT, and buys a Camry, I bet they always come crawling back, buy another Chrysler, and Jürgen Schrempp is grateful for the "PR". nom de plume: | Quote: | | who would bother to type all that? |
Well, someone who's having a bad experience caused by needing to manage his distro more than actually be able to use it, at times.
F) Excellent, and thoughtful, comments from mannygentoo, r00723r0, Ian, codergeek42 (a moderator, btw), Gergan (your icon makes me giggle, but thanks for pointing out the actual bug - very nice and useful - balshoye spasiba), and petrjanda (who also quit Gentoo and is happier - anyone care why?).
G) Headrush - you make a few good points. Sorry you feel unappreciated. I do understand that this is a volunteer project, and that developers/maintainers feel underappreciated (and, believe me, they ARE). OTOH, most distros are also volunteer projects. My particular point, reading between my (self-censored, btw) expletives, was that lots and lots of time is necessary to simply have and use Gentoo. Many packages are broken for a very long time. Many other distros have better track records of providing usable updates, without having to directly compile packages (hey, anyone can do that - that's why there're distros, and things like RPM or apt-get or emerge....). I'm just saying that - whoever the dude is who signed on to "maintain" vlnx, as a single camel's-back-breaking-straw among many - doesn't. And it's been quite a while. And the Gentoo team evidently doesn't have a process for "hey, one of our maintainers dropped the ball, screwed the pooch, etc -- at least we can re-mask the package for the moment and provide some useful notes in the package database". I don't think I "demanded this and that" - I think I shared my frustration (with a lot of heat, yeah), pointed out what imho is broken with Gentoo, and why I'm leaving.
H) Q-collective - oh, my, a Trekkie. Who picked a snarky supercilious omnipotent character as an avatar. (Don't get me wrong, I have a personally signed photo of John DeLancie in full Federation garb from a TrekCon. Of course, I also then grew up, met girls, and got a life. You don't know the safe combo from that one epi....never mind. I'm also amused by your tag of "Self Proclaimed Forum Deity", and signing your posts "Kthxbai", plus the .sigs. Have you thought of daily affirmations, perhaps a new wardrobe? OK, nuff taunting. But it was so, so easy - and you got all superior-attitude with me first </adhominem>.
The fact that you (which you used in the plural - saying "WE") "really, really don't care" - is exactly my point. Thanks.
I) Here's my favorite: Think4UrS11, who said:
| Quote: | Plus the little interesting detail that i can very well fetch the vlnx sources without the slightest issue, but hey.... 
Maybe one should check it's dns servers or alike... |
Well - wow. Great. So your way of "helping" is to drop a hint as to how a user could completely BYPASS THE ENTIRE EMERGE tool & process, which is the freaking POINT of Gentoo, and go do a whois lookup, directly download the package, and hand-paste it in? Look - if I need vlnx, and I'm that kind of user, I'll just do an LFS install and hand-compile all my packages. Yeah, I know what whois is, and can track down the package through Freshmeat or whatever. My point is that GENTOO doesn't install vlnx.
On the other hand, Think4UrS11, from your icon, you're a really hot blonde girl. So - sorry I took your utterly useless advice, which didn't respond at all to my issues or complaint in even a marginally useful or helpful way, and insulted you for basically saying I wasn't smart enough to engineer a workaround to the lack of a Gentoo solution to installing a simple package, a solution which requires technical knowledge outside of the sphere of the "average" computer user, and which more importantly, only needs to be done because Gentoo itself is broken in that area, and which could be done in ANY Linux installation, with GNU tools only. Gosh, I'm humbled. Because you just solved a problem I *don't* have, but failed to address the problem Gentoo *does* have. I wouldn't have been so clever. I bow to you, hot blonde chick.
J) (Sorry - now I'm getting really snarky again. I just don't deal well with people who don't read, don't know how to be helpful, and enjoy telling others how their lack of technical knowledge is a character flaw.)
K) Quag7, and the issue of Asperger's in general:
Let me just say I apologize, even though I don't think anyone's raised it, for basic insensitive disparagement of a class of people based on something they can't help. I have raging adult ADD (medicated, now, and doing much better, thank you) and know some Asperger's people, whom I enjoy hanging with. My point was more a satirical one, which I made badly -- there are a lot of tech geeks whose social skills, and sensitivity to users' feelings SUCK, and we all know this. As techies - we ALL get a superior attitude and say things like "PEBCAK". On the other hand - and pay attention - I mean YOU! - tell me you've NEVER failed to make a backup. Tell me you've never done something dumb and gotten a virus. Tell me you're free of Homer-Simpson head-smacking "DOH!" moments in your technical professional career.
And I'll respond (pardon the lack of asterisks): Bullshit.
Back to Quag7 - you made me laugh, multiple times. You've got a gift. I loved your post, and you were right, often and well. Please consider writing, at least as a hobby - the world would be bettered (and if you got published, I'd have less time to wait anxiously between Stephenson books).
L) Mikegpitt - your comment was the most sensible, level-headed, and responsive of them all (not as FUNNY as Quag7's, but hey. I'm giving out multiple award categories here). Thank you. Also - RazielFMX - great comments. However "that pain is the fun of it" is not something that I think would be a great marketing slogan, unless S&M jumps into the OS arena as a really, really weird fetish.
M) For StarDragon, who asked why I'd bother with an antivirus system on Linux, which "boggles [his] mind" -- I can't even begin to compose a reply to your question. Good luck, son. You'll need it. Don't worry about that chattering drive and your 98% TCP/IP usage. And - please contact me. I've recently been working with some Nigerians and need a bank account to park a few million in - would you be interested?
N) uberkermitt - you say "he'll be back", followed by "How many times I have hosed my system, I cannot count." Q.E.D. Thanks.
O) Sir Yes from Poland - I couldn't get any mental traction on your post, other than the fact you don't seem to like foul language (even with most of it replaced by punctuation marks). I never insult a non-native English speaker (hey, I can't possibly post meaningfully on a Polish server) - but I still don't know what the heck you were trying to say.
P) enderandrew (yeah, I like O.S. Card too - in fact, found him way back in high school, way before Ender. Anyway:) First of all, your statement that "you" (i.e., me) "likely broke it" is neither true nor helpful. If I do an emerge -uDAV world, or some such, and things don't work (as has happened many times) - blaming me rather than the distro an interesting exercise only. I now have a box that doesn't work, and a lot of work ahead of me to find out which package broke it. I typed a legitimate command, that's pretty core to the idea of Gentoo, and now I have 4-5 hours of searching through forum posts and bugzilla to determine why. (Oh, and I just LOVE getting into dmesg and such - exactly why distros exist - to SHIELD me from this kind of sysadmin hell on my desktop computer.)
You suggest I don't use the community enough. Well - when I do an update, and my box is broken, and I have actual work to do, and there's no "revert" command, and it might take hours before I can actually PRINT something before an investor meeting - "consult the community" (and, yes, I've done that - I have a shortcut to Gentoo Forums in my Firefox Bookmarks Toolbar, and have searched the Forums hundreds and hundreds of times - again, THAT'S the problem!) is faint consolation compared to "this Gentoo thing just isn't worth my time and pain".
I can't do a simple sync/world update without worrying whether my box will be broken afterwards. I should be able to.
Q) Solicitous - great pointer on editing the e-build. Anyone feel like e-mailing the package maintainer with that leetle suggestion? It hasn't been updated since August 2005. In fact - and let me suggest you all (anyone who's still reading this encyclopaedic screed) ask yourselves this tiny question:
WHY HASN'T ANYONE JUST GONE AND FIXED THE E-BUILD SINCE READING MY ORIGINAL RANT?
Seems simple from what y'all tell me. I don't know how. Many of you are "veterans" or "moderators". (Heck, Solicitous figured something out, and he's still at lowly n00b status, like me.) Several of you responded to my post by mocking me, dismissing it as a troll, or because I'd not posted before, etc.
How many of you went "hey, sh*t-d*mn, there's a busted link, there's been a bug about it in bugzilla for half a year, I can find the package, fix the e-build, post the answer, and there we have it!".
Answer: none.
R) c0r0 - thanks for wasting electrons. I've been polite with others - you couldn't even get the quote right. (It's "fool me twice", not "beat me twice". Which is why people make fun of Bush for ... oh, hell, it's just not worth it.)
S - and last point) Nai - thank you. You get it. Your response is exactly, exactly, exactly the point. Oh - and I note it's YOUR "1st" post.
But it's a smart one. (Folks - quantity and quality are two different things. No points for pointing out my post, lengthwise, has a lot of quantity. Cheap, easy, and very low difficulty to mention it, bzzzrt, sorry.)
Bye now, and good luck with your distro,
Randy |
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think4urs11
Bodhisattva
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 6659
Location: above the cloud
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: The Original poster replies. (LONG, MUCH < PISSED) |
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| randy_waterhouse wrote: | I) Here's my favorite: Think4UrS11, who said:
| Quote: | Plus the little interesting detail that i can very well fetch the vlnx sources without the slightest issue, but hey....
Maybe one should check it's dns servers or alike... |
Well - wow. Great. So your way of "helping" is to drop a hint as to how a user could completely BYPASS THE ENTIRE EMERGE tool & process, which is the freaking POINT of Gentoo, and go do a whois lookup, directly download the package, and hand-paste it in? |
Plain wrong - all i did was emerge -f vlnx - and it worked without the slightest issue, worked 'out of the box', without tweaking, without DNS-voodoo, whatever you might think of...
BTW - you're getting personal and rude
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dkostic
Apprentice
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 220
Location: Madison, NJ
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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I kind of understand randy_waterhouse's frustration in general. What he said in his first post about Gentoo--that it's "not ready for primetime"--is actually true about Linux in general, to an extent. I mean, think about it: what percentage of computer users in the world know what a kernel is? How many of them would know what to do (aside from calling some kind of tech support) if they had a kernel panic on boot? Probably pretty close to 0.
To those of us on this forum, these are pretty simple questions with pretty simple answers. But that's because if you even know what Gentoo is, let alone use it, you're already in orbit in the upper atmosphere of knowledgability about computers. Most people who use computers have very pedestrian needs--just write term papers or check their gmail accounts or something. Remember, the main reason viruses spread so quickly and phishing schemes are so successful is because the world is populated almost entirely with Micro$oft users who, through their own innocent naivete and ignorance of computers (an ignorance that Micro$oft fosters and feeds off of, by the way), get duped into opening dubious email attachments. These people would probably just go jump off a cliff if they ever encountered the errors we deal with here.
My point is that Gentoo is inherently difficult to use and to fix because there aren't many people (statistically speaking) who know more about computers than us here on this forum. You either have the time and the interest to deal with the difficulty, or you prefer ease of use and readiness out of the box (and can tolerate the Fisher-Price feel that's built into Window$). I, personally, feel proud and richly rewarded for the amount that I've learned from dealing with (admittedly frustrating) errors that pop up from time to time. But I understand the desire for something that works, no questions asked.
But I think we should try to understand randy's criticisms, because some of them seem to me to have some validity, and I don't think that that means we're all suddenly critics of Gentoo.
That's my two cents. Hope nobody flames me.
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Toshiba Satellite A105 laptop, 1.7 mHz Celeron M, 100 Gb hard disk, 512 Mb RAM, 2006.0, 2.6.16-r7 kernel
Homemade desktop, 3.2+ mHz AMD Athlon 64 processor, 120 Gb hard disk, 1 Gb RAM, 2005.0, 2.6.14-r2 kernel |
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Q-collective
Advocate
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 2071
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: The Original poster replies. (LONG, MUCH < PISSED) |
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| randy_waterhouse wrote: | | H) Q-collective - oh, my, a Trekkie. |
Ex-trekkie, I sticked with the "Q" though.
| Quote: | | I'm also amused by your tag of "Self Proclaimed Forum Deity" |
Yeah, good to know it amuses some people
| Quote: | | and signing your posts "Kthxbai" |
Well, your startpost was just a flame, I responded in simlar fashion
| Quote: | The fact that you (which you used in the plural - saying "WE") "really, really don't care" - is exactly my point. Thanks.
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I know at least some people agreed with me, others think it was quite humorous, either way the message got through.
A one-in-all post that is a respond to all others, you don't see that every day 
Last edited by Q-collective on Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Q-collective
Advocate
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 2071
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| dkostic wrote: | | I kind of understand randy_waterhouse's frustration in general. What he said in his first post about Gentoo--that it's "not ready for primetime"--is actually true about Linux in general, to an extent. I mean, think about it: what percentage of computer users in the world know what a kernel is? How many of them would know what to do (aside from calling some kind of tech support) if they had a kernel panic on boot? Probably pretty close to 0. |
Gentoo is not meant for just everyone. And Ubuntu/SuSE/Fedora/etc users don't have to know what a kernel is. They just upgrade their systems and be happy. |
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Aries-Belgium
l33t
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Posts: 730
Location: Willebroek, Belgium
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: The Original poster replies. (LONG, MUCH < PISSED) |
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| randy_waterhouse wrote: |
C) Aries-Belgium - désolé que vous êtes fatigué de "ces posts". Peut-être il n'y aurait pas tellement beaucoup si mes plaintes étaient non fondées. (And sorry if you're from the walloon side, A-B - het spijt me, ik spreek geen Vlaams.) |
If I were from the Wallon part, I would speak French which I don't  But I understand what you said. I didn't said your complaints weren't founded but that was like the tenth thread in one month where a user is claiming he is leaving Gentoo. I mean, you could also complain without "shouting" you're going to leave Gentoo. If you don't like something, you can share that with the others and work together to resolve these problems. That is what opensource is all about.
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randy_waterhouse
n00b
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6
Location: SF Bay Area, California
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:14 pm Post subject: [From the guy who started it all, again...] |
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Think4UrS11 wrote:
| Quote: |
Plain wrong - all i did was - and it worked without the slightest issue, worked 'out of the box', without tweaking, without DNS-voodoo, whatever you might think of...
BTW - you're getting personal and rude |
1) No, it wasn't "plain wrong":
| Code: | emerge -v vlnx
>>> Emerging (1 of 1) app-antivirus/vlnx-432e-r2 to /
>>> Downloading ftp://kane.evendata.net/pub/vlnx/check-updates.sh.gz
--16:00:02-- ftp://kane.evendata.net/pub/vlnx/check-updates.sh.gz
=> `/usr/portage/distfiles/check-updates.sh.gz'
Resolving kane.evendata.net... failed: Unknown host.
!!! Couldn't download check-updates.sh.gz. Aborting. |
Glad you can resolve the server. I can't. Neither can Internic's whois server. Or, perhaps you can explain why there's a months-old bug in bugzilla complaining about the exact same thing?
Either way - I can emerge packages just fine. I can't get this one. Other Gentoo users have agreed they have similar difficulty.
Sorry I was rude, and hurt your feelings. I still think you're a really hot blonde chick.
2) dkostic - first of all, Dead Kennedys RULE. (I was listening to "Chemical Warfare" and "Kill the Poor" on my Walkman II, walking home from high school, in 1982. I bow to you.)
Second, thanks for another sane, sensible, helpful, and thoughtful response. That makes, like 6 or 8, so far, out of dozens.
3) Q-Collective: no, my "startpost" was not "just a flame". The thoughtful responses, however few, point that out. And when you say "either way, the message got through" -- I assume you mean your original response, which you re-quoted, which was basically "we don't care". Again, yep. That's why I'm leaving Gentoo.
Buh-bye.
Randy |
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Hypnos
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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You might be a middle-aged "expert," but it seems that your skillset does not include the simple manners attained by those far less educated or experienced than yourself. Your petulant tone is not acceptable even in children. It is certainly no way to offer criticism you think is constructive to a group of volunteers and enthusiasts.
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Gergan Penkov
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Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 1464
Location: das kleinste Kuhdorf Deutschlands :)
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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You have valid points in all your posts, but you are just missing the point - the developers are working on this in their spare time for no money.
If you look at mozilla-foundation bugzilla you will see that the bug count is generally the same with probably much more unresolved bugs for much longer time than gentoo's and mozilla has much more money and pays its developers and produces much bigger s..t than gentoo.
My point here is that you probably need this pkg, but this pkg is sth marginally important for the distribution and for the community, so it was left unnoticed for a long time. Probably the developer is MIA and till you have raised this, noone (aside from you and one-two more users) was aware of this debacle.
You trade time against using FOSS-software or you trade money against using proprietary software, or sometime you trade both - and only in this case you could be really angry at smb.
TANSTAAFL
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SirYes
Apprentice
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 282
Location: Lodz, Poland
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:09 am Post subject: Re: The Original poster replies. (LONG, MUCH < PISSED) |
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@randy_waterhouse:
First I'd like to point out that I'm writing this before I attempt to read other answers to your post - not to get biased in any way, but to to write my own thoughts.
Overall I've found your original post a bit fun to read. Mostly because I've already seen several of them and every time there's something in such that could be resolved in a different, peacuful and quiet way. Bah, I've written a "Goodbye Gentoo" post myself... and returned back - for good I hope.
| Quote: | | O) Sir Yes from Poland - I couldn't get any mental traction on your post, other than the fact you don't seem to like foul language (even with most of it replaced by punctuation marks). I never insult a non-native English speaker (hey, I can't possibly post meaningfully on a Polish server) - but I still don't know what the heck you were trying to say. |
Yes, you got that right, I really don't like foul language. It says something about the poster and his/her attitude towards things. I have a small kid and in our house swearing is forbidden. The kid catches words so quickly that it wouldn't be wise from my parental view to say such words too soon so the child would hear it. You substitute letters with punctuation marks while writing and I substitute the marks with letters while reading. And then my eyes hurt - a bit . And that's my general view on this matter - I dislike such things and I don't like people to use foul language as well. That's all I wanted to say on this subject.
Now on topic.
Linux is different. And I hope you already know that after several years of using it. The best thing about distros like Gentoo is the community around it. A community of developers and a community of users. Remember that developers are users too, so in general there is only one community - of users - where some participants are more knowledgeable and have commit access to the repository.
It's been said on many occasions that this is a voluntary project. And it is still going - it doesn't even have a 1.0 release version. All that's provided by the releng team are newer/better LiveCDs and profiles. Inside it's still the same thing, but reengineered and partially rewritten every day. It's a live beast and users should better come along and play by the rules. Why work against when problems CAN be solved in a peaceful manner and benefitting lots of users at the same time?
This is something one should figure out after spending some time with FLOSS projects. There are people behind them. Like every other person, developers have good and bad days, they like and dislike things, some of them have even real life besides computers  . Gentoo developers are more advanced users who happen to know something about programming and try to something good for themselves and (accidentally?) for other people too. This is called altruism. But most important thing is, they don't get paid for this job and are far less often credited for it as they should be. And the number of developers is not too big, contrary to the growing number of users and their demands.
That said, there ARE ways to interact with the developers directly. They tend not to read the forums too often, because that's what users do. Developers should better spend their time, err... developing? The primary place for raisig awareness about problems is Gentoo Bugzilla (aka https://bugs.gentoo.org). Other means are IRC channels and mailing lists. Just posting your suffering to the forums gives you a relief (you fling off your pains) but the problem is still being unsolved. You just bother wrong people in th wrong place. That's why they gradually become angry to such posts. They are people/users too, after all. Nobody likes being insulted, and sometimes we do insult others, even unintentionally.
Like I've written near the beginning, I've myself said goodbye to this distro once. And while I'm not too proud of it at least I can admit that fact. I've returned (like a prodigal son ) because there are some unique aspects of Gentoo that drove me back towards it. Even if it has some deficiences. And when I find one I'm not crying and screaming. Instead I'm treating such a problem like a challenge. I search the forums, use google.com, post bug reports, sometimes even with patches and ideas. That's proactivity.
The Gentoo project is not unique in this regard. I've got a track of solved bugs/problems with many other projects. For example: ALSA, NetBeans, GlassFish, SourceEdit, GKSu, knetstats, Debian, coreutils, reiserfs, GNOME - to name a few that I remeber of at the moment. It's not hard to get with touch with the right people but it requires a bit of good will and a skill of asking smart questions. It's the bazaar, remember? Everyone can say whatever he/she likes to, but only the people with high merit get lots of long term attention. And I like being heared and given a nod on my opinions, reports and forums. Without insulting the feeling of other people, obviously.
I really like Gentoo as it is, even though I don't have to like everything in it (like GLI in its current incarnation). When I find something I really don't like it's often a matter of using ebuild somepackage.ebuild unpack, fiddling with the source code, making a diff and putting the corrected version in my private overlay. Then a quick bug report and more often than not a problem is solved for good - and typically it takes only days/weeks to come up with the right solution. Of course, not everyone has to do it nor has to know how to do so in first place. But in Gentoo it's easy for me tweak things and fix them as I see it fit.
For me there are some unique things that keep me with Gentoo (in the order of my private preference):
- the learning factor (manual installation, configuration)
- knowledge and insight gained through 1.
- Java handling (the best I've ever seen - and it's improving Right Now, like this whole week already!)
- requirement to learn how to configure, compile and install a kernel
- Gentoo Handbook
- possibility of tweaking, patching and making the things I'd like them to be
- friendly community
- forums
- the feeling of using an LFS distro on steroids
- the feeling of using the bleeding edge distro
- possibility of being safe (!) on a bleeding edge by running ~arch (and let's not discuss this one, okay?)
That's a lot of reasons, isn't it. And after figuring out how to set up most of things in my home computer and a laptop I have absolutely no need to ditch Gentoo, ever. My USB thingies, SONY digital camera, Canon PIXMA iP400 printer (both local and on a remote Windows host), Samba, DVD movies, Java, Flash, even Windows inside VMWare work under Gentoo, both x86 and amd64. And I'm proud of it as hell, even though I needed to discover how to do all that correctly. But now I can help other people should they have problems with said things, because I understand why and how.
I guess we are just different types of people, so we can always at least agree to disagree. You've written you couldn't get a mental traction on my post, but I hope you can do so now. You know, my parents like to tell me that when I was a kid I decomposed my toys to see what's inside. I guess it stayed with me, I still like to know how things work.
Probably that's also the reason I have on my laptop several distros installed. That includes Ubuntu and PCLinuxOS among others. I look at the state they're in right now to notice the differences between them with regard to installation, upgrade and amount of work that needs to be put to tune them to my liking. My experiences vary and I'm happy to learn such things. Gentoo is far from being perfect (and what is?) but for now it fulfill my personal, specific needs well. Even though I don't like everything in it.
Yes, I needed to install it several times to get things "right". But every other install was faster, and with more and more hurdles out of my way. I know this is not for everybody, but *I* like it that way.
I mean, you look like the guy that doesn't want to bother with the OS and software to me. And I'm fine with that. Some people expect the software to Just Work (TM) and always figure out their needs. It happens with some distros more with others. But Gentoo is not as automatic like every other distro made for MS Windows refugees, it's for the Linux tweaker freaks (I exagerate, I know). You seem to find that Gentoo may be not for you and I'm fine with that too. More, I'm happy of this! It means that you have a need and you seek how to fulfill it. Maybe Ubuntu will be best for you? There are paid developers who are able to test things on every architecture before they release any updates. And the updates... First a notification icon in the system tray, then the apt-get and the Synaptic... A joy for use. (I highly respect Debian for .deb archives and apt-get - state of the art!) Just remember where to ask for support should problems arise: http://www.ubuntu.com/community
Now for some things I don't agree with.
| Quote: | | You suggest I don't use the community enough. |
In the light of your tone I pretty much suspect that too.
| Quote: | | Well - when I do an update, and my box is broken, and I have actual work to do, and there's no "revert" command, and it might take hours before I can actually PRINT something before an investor meeting |
And there's something strange to fix things that are not broken - I mean: doing an update - before important events of your life. With the project scale, limitations in manpower, developers and user knowledge, it is expected to have some broken packages. It depends on which ones you're using. Things get broken, get fixed and get improved all the time. It's a moving target.
| Quote: | | "this Gentoo thing just isn't worth my time and pain" |
Probably the best idea of yours.
| Quote: | | I can't do a simple sync/world update without worrying whether my box will be broken afterwards. I should be able to. |
Well, you got this one right. I agree with you 100%. Alas, the reality is different.
| Quote: | great pointer on editing the e-build. Anyone feel like e-mailing the package maintainer with that leetle suggestion? It hasn't been updated since August 2005. In fact - and let me suggest you all (anyone who's still reading this encyclopaedic screed) ask yourselves this tiny question:
WHY HASN'T ANYONE JUST GONE AND FIXED THE E-BUILD SINCE READING MY ORIGINAL RANT? |
Because there wasn't a new entry in the Bugzilla? And you seemed a bit too harsh for some people, so they wouldn't bother to post a bug report on your behalf? Especially since you've stated clearly that you don't care and leaving? I hope you see the reasons now.
| Quote: | | Solicitous figured something out, and he's still at lowly n00b status, like me. |
It doesn't mean anything. Forum status mostly depends on the number of posts and not the number of years of being a good Gentooer. I've seen a number of noob-like questions from people with 500+ post count, which doesn't prove anything either.
| Quote: | | Several of you responded to my post by mocking me, dismissing it as a troll, or because I'd not posted before, etc. |
That's a shame for them. But this is a public forum after all. You can expect answers like these when you go to the public and talk about things you don't like.
Good luck with your new distro,
whichever you end up with.
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aidy
l33t
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 915
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:41 am Post subject: |
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wow randy_waterhouse
you rock |
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aidy
l33t
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 915
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: |
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but it's true you're acting a bit silly
some guy posted a fix, and it takes 5 secs to fix it now. |
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kraylus
l33t
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 648
Location: ft.worth.tx
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Aries-Belgium wrote: | Goodbye and good luck with Ubuntu!
Pff, I'm getting sick of these threads  |
yeah, seems to be a common theme in the gentoo forums. people posting about how retarded gentoo is... hmm... i wonder why. it can't possibly be because he raises a good point, eh? naahhh. that can't be it.
gentoo seems to take pride in its difficult installation and maintenance, and sooner or later, each and every gentoo user is going to be posting something along these lines. it's really just a matter of when. i posted something similar myself. lucky me, i didn't have to suffer for four years til i saw the light.
but hey, like it's been said before. gentoo is NOT for everyone. it's for people with too much time on their hands. me? i like to get things done.
yeah, yeah. gentoo users get it done too. soon as the app finishes compiling. well... IF it finishes.
anyhow, congratulations randy. now you can get your work done.
ryan
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kraylus
l33t
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 648
Location: ft.worth.tx
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Gergan Penkov wrote: | | You have valid points in all your posts, but you are just missing the point - the developers are working on this in their spare time for no money. |
ah, so then it's ok. randy should apologize profusely, bend over and ask for another. all because the developers are doing all this work out of the goodness of their hearts. or is it because they do it for the love of programming?
funny thing, there're lots of other linux distros where the programmers ALSO don't get paid for their time, but they still manage to do things correctly. on time too. and better. maybe THOSE developers are actually sell-outs and the gentoo devs are the only l33t ones left, right? yeah, that's probably it.
i don't mind so much paying people for services. i'm not some jobless, 16-year-old gentoo/linux bigot who's so opposed to paying for a quality product. not to shatter your hopes and dreams kiddies, but if you want something done right, pay for it.
til then, you can continue to use gentoo. because it's "free". my time's worth too much
ryan
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kraylus
l33t
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 648
Location: ft.worth.tx
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Ian wrote: | | I dunno...if I was pissed off I would just leave and not say goodbye. |
no you wouldn't. you'd do what every other gentoo user in denial would do. you'd post the one last rant in OTW in the hopes that someone will take take great offense and help you one last time so as to keep you as part of the gentoo elite. when no one cared enough to do so, THEN you'd leave
another recurring theme on the gentoo forums. it's been happening since i started using gentoo back when it didn't suck.
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cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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gentoo should have a script which checks the files are still at the remote server every day
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aidy
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| kraylus wrote: | | Ian wrote: | | I dunno...if I was pissed off I would just leave and not say goodbye. |
no you wouldn't. you'd do what every other gentoo user in denial would do. you'd post the one last rant in OTW in the hopes that someone will take take great offense and help you one last time so as to keep you as part of the gentoo elite. when no one cared enough to do so, THEN you'd leave
another recurring theme on the gentoo forums. it's been happening since i started using gentoo back when it didn't suck. |
not true.
I was pissed off and I just installed ubuntu
tad simple |
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