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How alive/dead is Gentoo for you? (Only vote, if you use Gentoo for at least one year.)
Even better than ever
42%
 42%  [ 98 ]
Hasn’t changed much
23%
 23%  [ 54 ]
Could be better
24%
 24%  [ 55 ]
In bad shape, there’s not much left
9%
 9%  [ 21 ]
Total Votes : 228

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petrjanda
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Headrush wrote:

A simple, "some things aren't updated enough for me and I need to spend less time on fixing these packages" would have been sufficient. No need for the attitude.

It's really not as simple. Imagine you have been running Gentoo for a few years, you have a few hundred gb of stuff in it, perhaps many projects opened too which you need to work on but your system isnt working the way it should. When I was switching to DragonFly, Gentoo was on my other hard drive for nearly 5 months taking up hundreds of gb of space still after I basically changed OS! The sole reason for that was about the 130gb of data that I just couldnt had been fucked moving up untill now when I was seriously running out of space on my DragonFly partition(only 15gb since most have been eaten up by gentoo). It's frustrating.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but but but, it works? I have only two outstanding issue's with my system
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've only been a Gentoo user for a year now and I must have said that like 100 times now, yet I still find myself using Gentoo on both my Linux machines. I don't even know what it is, but I can't give it up. I came to a conclusion a couple of months ago that maybe every Gentoo user enojys the frustration of their OS not working correctly, but who knows.
I do know this, using Gentoo has increased my problem solving skills. I find myself struggling less and less with the Debian distros at work, just because of my experience with Gentoo.
Even though you might be giving it up, (I bet you'll be back), just know that it was not a waste of time.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Despite all the problems... Gentoo is addictive. Dont know why, it just is. A month ago I tried Ubuntu and it took me about 4 hrs using Ubuntu to wipe it clean and install Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
but but but, it works? I have only two outstanding issue's with my system
cya

Eeh by gum, that’ld make me as ’appy as a pig in muck :-D
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shucklak wrote:
I came to a conclusion a couple of months ago that maybe every Gentoo user enojys the frustration of their OS not working correctly, but who knows.


On the contrary I use Gentoo because I am frustrated with Microsoft. I used to be a Microsoft guy. I am a MCSE actually. On top of that my job involves Windows systems. I get tired of Windows frankly. Sure stuff works, but it thats all I can say about it.

With Gentoo everything works better. Sure I may not have the application selection, but I don't give a crap. I don't need em'. I like when Firefox opens in a snap. I love when my computer doesn't sit on "Windows is shutting down" forever waiting for my hard disk to finish whatever it was doing. I love when my profile doesn't take several minutes to finish loading. I have defragged, optimized, cleaned, everything but windows simply feels slow.

A box is built around Windows. Linux builds itself around a box.

I log in on Linux, type startx and bam the desktop comes promptly comes alive fueled from the bowels of my beastly black box.


Last edited by xPAGANx on Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to admit, this part was pretty funny:

Quote:

you punk-ass 23-year-old no-social-skills Asperger's Syndrome supercilious bastard!


Not because it's true necessarily but because of how the computer nerd stereotype has evolved since I was very young. Never has a mental disorder been so chic. Or so many postings about Asperger's would have me believe. Lack of social skills used to have something to do with being maladroit and shy, not outright hostile, as he alleges.

That being said, and I think it's a fairly interesting metric, I just upgraded GCC to 4.1.1 (~x86) and am emerging world now.

World on my system consists of a fairly horrifying 540+ packages. It's been chugging away for about 3 days now.

Of these there are 91 left, so of 450 packages thus far in stable (with 7 marked ~x86 in package.keywords).

5 packages of 450 would not build (and I just resumed with --skipfirst).

5 out of 450 isn't all that bad when you consider that I'm using an ~x86 compiler and who knows what anomalies are on my system. Every system seems to develop them from time to time, and not just Gentoo (in fact my Debian machines have a pesky way of developing weird anomalies more often).

The ones which have died so far:

media-libs/jasper
app-cdr/cdrdao
games-emulation/atari800
media-libs/libdv-0.102
media-gfx/gimp-2.2.8-r1

I haven't attempted to address them yet or look up anything in bugzilla.

I just think that to some degree because Gentoo is what it is, a system where you're compiling in an environment with lots of permuations of USE flags, architectures, dependencies, etc. it is reasonable that some things are bound to be imperfect but it's hard to get bent out of shape over 5 out of 450 packages. Not that Gentoo hasn't bent me out of shape - it has. Few things have caused me more frustration, but that's the price of Gentoo - you get a lot of power and customizability and as a result, you get some headaches too. I think it's a good bargain though because there are less headaches than I might otherwise expect.

Still, this is a tinkerer's distribution. It can be employed for general purpose work but I think it's reasonable from the moment you sit down with the unusual installation process for Gentoo that patience is going to be key. Not everyone has patience. Not everyone, frankly, has time or the computing power for Gentoo. Alright then; I like Gentoo best but there are other quality distros more suited to the impatient (frankly for me this is Debian and everyone's favorite flavor of the month, Ubuntu). (Not a swipe at Ubuntu; maybe it rocks but it has indeed been the most hyped distro of the past year).

Another thing is to give yourself one hour, when you're really, really angry, before posting anything. I always do. I can get pretty emotional sometimes.

Flaming feels good though. On BBSes back in the 80s and 90s sometimes they'd have war boards, or message bases dedicated exclusively to flames. People could insult each other without any restrictions, even though they might be friends otherwise.

Maybe I should start a Linux flame site for disgruntled Linux users and rather than have back and forth flame-retort-flame-retort threads, we could have a ratings system and attached message boards discussing the quality of the flame. I kind of liked this one as far as disgruntlement goes, relative to other "SOD YOU GENTOO I'M OFF!" posts I've read. The use of supercilious in particular, was appreciated.

As someone who enjoys superciliousness like a fine Islay scotch, I could take umbrage at this, but instead, I sort of see this flame as putting us - that being, of course, the supercilious - on the proverbial map. I invite those among us with Asperger's Syndrome to look at it the same way, especially maintainers, to whom this flame was directed.

At bare minimum, if you are one of the maintainers he references, you should be a bit flattered that you could elicit such a strident rant. Rants like that have in other circumstances preceded some very hot angry sex, and while I doubt that is likely to be the outcome of this gentleman's departure, it is something to be proud of.

As for his one post, is it not possible that he has another account that he's been using?

Well no matter.

To the flamer though, I must say this - you will never find a distro who's love hurts so good as Gentoo does. You may find some that are better cooks, or, say, more cosmetically perfect, shot through with collagen, silicone, and Botox treatments...but you will never find a distro that is a better *lover*.

You'll miss it when it's gone. You'll get drunk in dive bars and slobber and bend the bartenders ear and tell him or her stories of love lost and those crazy, hot, sweaty nights of emerge --update --deep --deep --deep --deep --deep worlds.

FreeBSD, well, FreeBSD will drag you over to her parents house every weekend and her mother won't shut up about your deficiencies.

Fedora's a flirt, she'll always be looking at other guys.

And when you're with Ubuntu, you'll still be thinking of Gentoo, hot, tan, and sweaty, its bosomy USE flags beckoning...

Oh yes.

Ubuntu is Lifetime or the Hallmark Channel at 10:30 AM on a weekday showing a made for TV movie starring Valerie Bertinelli and Morgan Fairchild as a single working mom trying to make it as a small town lawyer.

But Gentoo, well, Gentoo is Cinemax at 1:00 AM on Saturday night.

Yeah, you know what I'm talking about.

Superciliously,

Quag7
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mikegpitt
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may be modded troll here (good thing our forum doesn't have modpoints :wink: ), but I think he does have a point.

IMHO Gentoo does have a responsibility that the ebuild installed work with minimal effort. Recently I've been running into problem myself. I've had many flawless upgrades, and some bad ones.

Just recently I decided to perform an update on one machine, and the "stable" wireless drivers lock my machine. In addition none of the version currenly in portage seem to work, so I was forced to refer back to my old configuration. This is just one case of many where I needed to do some hacking to get things working.

I don't write posts like the one that started this thread, since I personally don't contribute to gentoo development, so I don't feel like I have a huge right to complain, but it is nice when everything *just works*.

(About his 1 post... I used gentoo for about a year or 2 before I signed up for an account, so I dont' think it's unnatural that he never posted here.)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gergan Penkov wrote:
the bug to which he refers


y would u need to install an antivirus on a linux system? that boggles my mind...
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

petrjanda wrote:
menelmacar wrote:
xPAGANx wrote:
After four years you have one post...

Yeah, that was my first thought.

Some people don't post on forums. Gentoo has probably a few thousands of users that never spent more than 10 minutes in here. Nothing wrong with that.

However,
I do agree with the poster on a number of things, hence why I left Gentoo and have been happily using/and contributing to DragonFly BSD for 6 months now.


This is true, there are many many thousands of Gentoo usrs who never even bother to sign up for a forum account. Many of the gentoo devs for instance.

DragonflyBSD is a very good distro from what I have read. Flameeyes seems to like it a lot. Maybe you can join the Gentoo/ALT project and help with the gentoo/dragonflyBSD port that he is working on.



xPAGANx wrote:


<snip>

A box is built around Windows. Linux builds itself around a box.




Very nice. I'll have to remember that saying for the future.


quag7 wrote:


<snip>



quag7, you are my hero.



Superciliously

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curtis119
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StarDragon wrote:
Gergan Penkov wrote:
the bug to which he refers


y would u need to install an antivirus on a linux system? that boggles my mind...



maybe it is an email server that serves mail to windows boxes?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a (Sarge) server right now in production on the internet which functions as a mail and web server for a team which interacts with customers, and a submission address as well. As a result of these being very public e-mail addresses, tons of spam is sent, and with it, a lot of viruses.

On an average day, my system spits out at least 200 virus notifications (to give you an idea of the extent of the problem - these mail addresses have been in constant use since 1998 or so. Frankly, the mail system is a sewer this way.)

Anyway I don't personally care for me, but most of the team uses Windows to get their mail. They started complaining to me about viruses and spam and stuff (I just use a Bayesian filter on my side, and viruses I don't obviously care about). Fair complaint though if you're a Windows user.

Anyway, I installed SpamAssassin on it and clamav. At most, one or two viruses a week get through now, and those are just the new ones that haven't had defs written for them yet - again, this is down from at least 200 a day.

But if you ever wonder why people put anti-virus software on Linux, that's probably the #1 reason. Some time ago before our old RaQ got hosed, I had F-Prot running on there to scan any incoming attachments through the submission address.

In essentially every circumstance that I've ever encountered or used Linux, it has been in a mixed environment with Windows machines. Linux servers make a nice immunized place to scan your Windows networks or clean e-mail. (Let's hope it stays that way!) In my case, every environment I've encountered Linux in, I've encountered Windows as well - this server is just one example.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

curtis119 wrote:

quag7 wrote:

<snip>


quag7, you are my hero.



Superciliously

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Second that one. Great post, quag7! :D
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I decided that after reading this whole thread, I feel the orginal posters pain. Took me a month to get gentoo to survive updates (ie looking for key packages I know ill be problematic, and working my updates around them), but now that it works I love it. Why? Because that pain is the fun of it.

The ironic thing here is that the very co-workers who got me into Gentoo now use SUSE and Ubuntu. SUSE seems nice, and I might try it at some point, but right now I'm all about the Gentoo...
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
When you come crawling back (as you will!), remember to flame your new distro as you go. We need the PR.


Yeah, he'll be back. :)

I don't know what it is, but indeed, Gentoo is addictive. How many times I have hosed my system, I cannot count. Hours and hours of sitting there, watching the screen while something is building. Heh. My wife hates it though. Just tonight I was mentioning I wanted to give gcc 4.1 a try again, and she expressly forbade me from doing so. But she is at work right now.. muahahahaha

I have fiddled with SuSE, and I know a bit about Ubuntu. Both of those distros don't seem very manly. My friend got SuSE and I went over to help him build some stuff - the darn thing did not even have a compiler installed by default! What sort of a UNIX system is that??!! Personally, I don't think I could switch from Gentoo completely. I have often wanted to dual boot FreeBSD (just to become more familiar with that style of UNIX), but I can never seem to get the internet working with my service provider. So I stick with Gentoo as my only machine.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nightmorph wrote:
I award the original poster 8 million troll points. Really, this thread should be moved to the dustbin.

And given the sheer number of swearing in the post it really should go to the dustbin.
I thought I'd get blind when I was reading this "article" ;)

Edit:
But overall, the toned answers to the original post are of the very high quality.
That's the best marker for these forums. And I really, REALLY love it, ya know. :D
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirYes wrote:
nightmorph wrote:
I award the original poster 8 million troll points. Really, this thread should be moved to the dustbin.

And given the sheer number of swearing in the post it really should go to the dustbin.
I thought I'd get blind when I was reading this "article" ;)

What does the swearing have to do with anything?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valkura wrote:
What does the swearing have to do with anything?

Nothing special?

Please read once again the fine print in my answer. Also note the smiling face. ;)
It was fun :)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirYes wrote:
Valkura wrote:
What does the swearing have to do with anything?

Nothing special?

Please read once again the fine print in my answer. Also note the smiling face. ;)
It was fun :)
Ah, I see. :D
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo is all about choice. You choose 99% of what goes in your box, and exactly how it is built.

One cannot say that Gentoo works or is broken as an absolute statement. If it is broke, you likely broke it. If this user couldn't get Gentoo to work, my OPINION is that he didn't attempt to utilize Gentoo's greatest strength, the community. There is plenty of help via the forums, mailing lists, documentation and IRC channels.

If you don't care for the concept of Gentoo, then happily move along.

In the case of the ebuild, you have a very valid point. I'm glad you brought it to people's attention. But there are TONS and TONS of ebuilds, that all have to be updated with new patches and new builds. People do this as volunteers. If one thing isn't perfect, that doesn't mean the entire distro is ruined. It means an ebuild hasn't received the proper attention it deserves.

The best way to go about it, is to fix the ebuild so it does download correctly, submit it to Bugzilla, and even if it gets ignored, other people can download your fix.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I think I have partially solved his problem. I'm currently at this stage.
Editing the ebuild and changing the line;
ftp://kane.evendata.net/pub/vlnx/check-updates.sh.gz
to;
ftp://ftp.evendata.net/pub/vlnx/check-updates.sh.gz
downloads the files successfully yet emerge fails on the digest.

output from emerge.

mental distfiles # emerge -f vlnx
Calculating dependencies... done!
>>> Emerging (1 of 1) app-antivirus/vlnx-432e-r2 to /
>>> Downloading http://download.nai.com/products/evaluation/virusscan/english/cmdline/linux/v4.32/intel/vlnx432e.tar.Z
--14:35:40-- http://download.nai.com/products/evaluation/virusscan/english/cmdline/linux/v4.32/intel/vlnx432e.tar.Z
=> `/usr/portage/distfiles/vlnx432e.tar.Z'
Resolving download.nai.com... 210.15.241.9, 210.15.241.16
Connecting to download.nai.com|210.15.241.9|:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
Length: 8,045,897 (7.7M) [application/x-compress]

100%[====================================>] 8,045,897 50.88K/s ETA 00:00

14:38:15 (51.00 KB/s) - `/usr/portage/distfiles/vlnx432e.tar.Z' saved [8045897/8045897]

>>> vlnx432e.tar.Z MD5 ;-)
>>> vlnx432e.tar.Z size ;-)
>>> Downloading ftp://ftp.evendata.net/pub/vlnx/check-updates.sh.gz
--14:38:15-- ftp://ftp.evendata.net/pub/vlnx/check-updates.sh.gz
=> `/usr/portage/distfiles/check-updates.sh.gz'
Resolving ftp.evendata.net... 216.105.107.59
Connecting to ftp.evendata.net|216.105.107.59|:21... connected.
Logging in as anonymous ... Logged in!
==> SYST ... done. ==> PWD ... done.
==> TYPE I ... done. ==> CWD /pub/vlnx ... done.
==> PASV ... done. ==> RETR check-updates.sh.gz ... done.
Length: 851 (unauthoritative)

100%[====================================>] 851 --.--K/s

14:38:20 (46.88 KB/s) - `/usr/portage/distfiles/check-updates.sh.gz' saved [851]

>>> check-updates.sh.gz MD5 ;-)
>>> check-updates.sh.gz size ;-)
>>> checking ebuild checksums
!!! Digest verification failed:
!!! /usr/portage/app-antivirus/vlnx/vlnx-432e-r2.ebuild
!!! Reason: Filesize does not match recorded size
!!! Got: 1660
!!! Expected: 1661

!!! Fetch for /usr/portage/app-antivirus/vlnx/vlnx-432e-r2.ebuild failed, continuing...



!!! Some fetch errors were encountered. Please see above for details.


mental distfiles #


Now is that because I edited vlnx-432e-r2.ebuild and portage does a md5sum on that file? Manually doing a md5sum on check-updates.sh.gz and vlnx432e.tar.Z matches the digest.
Currently gentoo-wiki.com appears to be down so I can't pursue this further right now. Anyone care to help me further on this? or is the point I've currently come to sufficient enough to add to the bug report? (BTW I have no interest in this piece of software, I guess it just shows how easy it is or how willing some people are to help one another out to solve a problem) *note* I have never posted a bug report before.

Ranting I think is fine for people to do if they've exhausted all possible channels before hand. As been noticed, randy_waterhouse has only 1 post (this thread). Now not trying to belittle the guy, but I don't think his rant holds alot of water. Are there any posts anywhere or any signs of where he tried to get help to solve his problems? For people to help you, you really need to help yourself first.

It seems to me though there are two types of people when it comes to talking about the development model of Gentoo. There are those who have a problem, throw their arms up in the air and complain, then go home and take their ball with them (so to speak). Then there are the other group that have a problem, try to solve it, seek help, find numerous people helping solve their problem, and walking away feeling better for it and having fixed their issues.

I just think people need to be grown up enough to ask for help rather than get all crabby when things don't work right out of the box for them.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/digest-and-manifest/index.html wrote:


Digest and Manifest

In the tree, every package has a Manifest file. This file lives in the same directory as the ebuilds for the package. The Manifest file contains digests (currently MD5, RMD160 and SHA256) and file size data for every file in the directory and any subdirectories. This is used to verify integrity. The Manifest may also be digitally signed.

Inside the files/ subdirectory, there is exactly one digest file per ebuild. Each file contains a digest (also MD5, RMD160, SHA256) and a file size for every file listed in SRC_URI for the ebuild. This is used to verify downloads and to catch any changed source files.

When generating digests, it is necessary to include all of the files which could be downloaded (SRC_URI can contain conditional entries). Portage will do this automatically if cvs is included in FEATURES.

To generate digests and Manifest, use ebuild foo.ebuild digest. When committing, the Manifest file must be regenerated to handle any CVS keyword expansion changes — repoman will do this automatically.



The key command in all of that is:

Code:

ebuild foo.ebuild digest


BUT, if you are supposedly downloading an exact copy of the file in question then the digest should match. I would do some checking and make damn sure that the file has not been compromised.
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Location: TAS, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the tip there curtis119.

I've done as follows and I think I've got it nailed.

mental distfiles # cat ../app-antivirus/vlnx/files/digest-vlnx-432e-r2
MD5 5404c946a08b81c6bbe68a8e9a556d0a vlnx432e.tar.Z 8045897
MD5 855a5653a2f75f1a17af2be92c3f2972 check-updates.sh.gz 851

mental distfiles # md5sum vlnx432e.tar.Z check-updates.sh.gz
5404c946a08b81c6bbe68a8e9a556d0a vlnx432e.tar.Z
855a5653a2f75f1a17af2be92c3f2972 check-updates.sh.gz


So it is downloading and verifyng the files to be correct. However when I check the .ebuild;

mental vlnx # cat Manifest | grep vlnx-432e-r2.ebuild
MD5 997495e9565a19e5f3748f429ec6368a vlnx-432e-r2.ebuild 1661

mental vlnx # md5sum vlnx-432e-r2.ebuild
ffce85e03bc65d9061f4ad4a88547c5f vlnx-432e-r2.ebuild

which with it failing makes sense because I did edit the vlnx-432e-r2.ebuild to change the url.

mental vlnx # ebuild vlnx-432e-r2.ebuild digest
>>> Creating Manifest for /usr/portage/app-antivirus/vlnx
digest.assumed 3
digest-vlnx-414e-r2::dat-4240.tar
digest-vlnx-414e-r2::vlnx414e.tar.Z
digest-vlnx-416e::dat-4240.tar
digest-vlnx-416e::vlnx416e.tar.Z
mental vlnx # emerge -f vlnx
Calculating dependencies... done!
>>> Emerging (1 of 1) app-antivirus/vlnx-432e-r2 to /
>>> Previously fetched file: vlnx432e.tar.Z MD5 ;-)
>>> Previously fetched file: vlnx432e.tar.Z RMD160 ;-)
>>> Previously fetched file: vlnx432e.tar.Z SHA1 ;-)
>>> Previously fetched file: vlnx432e.tar.Z SHA256 ;-)
>>> Previously fetched file: vlnx432e.tar.Z size ;-)
>>> Previously fetched file: check-updates.sh.gz MD5 ;-)
>>> Previously fetched file: check-updates.sh.gz RMD160 ;-)
>>> Previously fetched file: check-updates.sh.gz SHA1 ;-)
>>> Previously fetched file: check-updates.sh.gz SHA256 ;-)
>>> Previously fetched file: check-updates.sh.gz size ;-)
>>> checking ebuild checksums ;-)
>>> checking auxfile checksums ;-)
>>> checking miscfile checksums ;-)
>>> checking vlnx432e.tar.Z ;-)
>>> checking check-updates.sh.gz ;-)
mental vlnx #

So does all of that look legitimate?
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curtis119
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Location: Toledo, OH, USA, North America, Earth, SOL System, Milky Way, The Universe, The Cosmos, and Beyond.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks good to me. Does it work?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it emerged no worries, yet when scrolling back through the install messages I came across this;

scanelf: rpath_security_checks(): Security problem with relative DT_RPATH '.' in /var/tmp/portage/vlnx-432e-r2/image/opt/vlnx/uvscan

I did a google on this and found very little on the the type of error I've encountered. Any ideas? Has it anything to do with vlnx being binary??
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