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leej
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2002 1:24 pm    Post subject: Features you want but have no chance of getting. Reply with quote

To be able to specify the editor used by textarea inputs on webpage forms.

set textarea_editor=vim

Not gonna happen in a million years. ;-)
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klieber
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2002 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To get forum users to RTFM and search prior to posting a new question. Each time and every time.

Wow -- what a pipe dream.

--kurt
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leej
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2002 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Wow -- what a pipe dream.


Chill. Put some of this funny tobacco in that pipe. 8)
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dunbar
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2002 6:14 pm    Post subject: RTFB too! Why not GGAD (Go get a degree)? Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
To get forum users to RTFM and search prior to posting a new question. Each time and every time.

Wow -- what a pipe dream.

--kurt


I like this kinda post..... :evil:

Maybe us 'freaks of nature' can't spend all day 'guessing' all the possible strings needed to find our exact problem? Maybe our problem could be 'mispeled' in your oh-so-excellent database?? Or maybe we can't spell too gud? You know how search engines are..... 'crash' does not find 'xf86config', 'dead network' does not find 'linuxconf', even 'delete' can't match 'delt'.... And more - maybe I do not know I need to search for 'bzip' and not 'gunzip' when I can't untar a foo.tar.gz file? Since when does any search result tell me that I needed the bzip command and not gunzip when I searched for answers to 'gunzip' tar.gz files??? I could go on for hours, but I'll be polite. :twisted:

I wonder, you must think most people *never* try searching... but please remember, your highness, we also have a patience limits, just like *you* have. I hereby apologize for everyone who ever skipped the search feature because they never find entries because they got sick and tired of trying to outsmart the 'literal' pattern matching used in the search feature - a search which cannot find 'Grep' when they enter 'grep'!!! :P

Just because you can find it, doesn't mean we did not even try to find it.

--
Somewhere on the other side of being a troll, there is usually found a timewaster who spends their time posting stuff they should know is flame bait, something they should never post. Those are usually the people who cannot tolerate someone of lesser understanding... from my side of your post, you come across as if yuo had said 'they do not know how to search, they couldn't help themself, and you cerrtainly aren't going to tell us'. How helpful! :roll:
--

Welcome to Gentoo, now go home? Well, if I meet more people like you, you got it!
Waah - wahhh! Here have a bottle of enfamil.

EDIT: a friendly PM tells me you are a moderator! woohooo! :twisted:
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klieber
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2002 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, dunbar, they have decaf brands that are just as tasty.

--kurt
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dunbar
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 1:16 pm    Post subject: Caffein? Frustration? Whats the diff? Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
You know, dunbar, they have decaf brands that are just as tasty.

--kurt


About the only reason I decided to post this was because kleiber has a history of being fair. I respect that his performance does not show he is as cruel as I had read his wish to imply. My fault for lighting up on him, he landed right square on a sore spot (duh). He is evidently able to gain benefit from the searches and RTFMs, unlike some of us.

I hope you, the reader, can see that searching can fail even when the results do match our problem, because sometimes newbies can't see that the results apply to their problems. The only way any search result will be used is when the reader is confident of the match, provided it even matches in the first place.
That would happen maybe 1 time out of hundreds of exact string matches because context fails to match, and exact matches are one in a hundred searches even if we spell correctly and match cases properly, because we may enter the wrong string for our problem. Ultimately, were talking about newbies being able to tell which one single result applies when we get something like 20,000 results presented to us for a given search. Provided the database contains no repeats, and is large enough to even provide 20,000 responses.
The internet adds confusion with docs relevent only to kernel 2.2.X, which is not clearly inappropriate in a newbies eyes. So, caffein or not, kleiber, the concept of RTFM and searching comes up with poor performance numbers. Newbies know this from first hand experience, and experts can tell when something applies - they already have experience. And when a search fails for them, they have their powers of reasoning to fall back on, again, based on experience which a newbie does not have.

People, on the other hand, will not deliver a result unless a close match exists. Except for that LUG moderator, and a few others.

Sorry, klieber, searches are not a real effective soultion, RTFM also gets minimal results because we do not grasp which invocation applies, we do not even know which TFM applies at what time. Why ask me or anyone to use such poor mechanisms? If you car ignition only sparked once in 10,000 attempts, you'd have to fix it. Yet you tell me to use RTFM and searches which perform just as poorly. Search results are not groomed for spelling, not groomed for context... those results are not really information, but fond memories to some specific individuals, nothing more.
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klieber
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Caffein? Frustration? Whats the diff? Reply with quote

dunbar wrote:
Sorry, klieber, searches are not a real effective soultion, RTFM also gets minimal results because we do not grasp which invocation applies, we do not even know which TFM applies at what time. Why ask me or anyone to use such poor mechanisms?


First of all, my original comment was not intended to provoke the kind of response that it has. I merely meant it as an off-hand, "wow, that would be great" type of comment. I'm sorry that things got out of hand.

To address your points, I agree that searching and RTFM'ing can be daunting for the new user. However, it's certainly not impossible. Remember that I, as well as every other experienced computer user out there, was a newbie at one point in their life. Lord knows if I can learn how to do something, everyone else can as well. Yes, it's difficult at first, but so is linux. As with anything, the more you do it, the better you become at it.

Here are some tips for folks struggling with searching:
  • Learn how to join words together using boolean operators. Instead of searching for "linux kernel problem" search for, "linux AND kernel AND problem". You will get a much smaller result set. Another example; "linux AND (debian OR redhat)".
  • Model numbers are a godsend. A lot of questions revolve around, "what driver do I use for my <insert NIC here>". The easiest way to find this is to go to Google and search for "linux <NIC model number here> driver". 9 times out of 10, one of the first 5 pages will give you the correct result.
  • Use precise terms. If you search for "linux kernel" you're going to get millions of responses. However, if you search for "linux kernel <specific error message>" then you're going to get much better, more accurate results.
  • Use advanced search pages. Especially for Google, which has an excellent Advanced Search page and will help you create more refined, accurate queries.

Some other web pages that offer searching tips:

There are others, but those were some of the first ones that I ran across by using this search on google.

Also, most experienced linux users won't flame you if you at least make an effort to search first. We all know searching is an imprecise science. One of the ways that I improved my searching ability was to ask at the bottom of every question that I posted, "how can I find this on google" or something similar. I will certainly take extra time out of my day to help a person improve their searching skills because it means they'll be able to help themselves more later on. Most other experienced folk will do the same. We love people that search.

Anyway, this thread has gotten way out of hand. Hopefully, we can all go back to our regular jobs and live peacefully together. :)

--kurt
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jtanner
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber, it might help newbies if a help link to the info in this post was at or near the top of the forum search page.

Jim
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klieber
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jtanner wrote:
klieber, it might help newbies if a help link to the info in this post was at or near the top of the forum search page.


Agreed, but I'm going to try and let this thread flesh out a bit more and use that one, instead.

--kurt
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fsck_ms
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't it be great if the appropriate FM just came out and read itself to you when you ran into trouble?
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have come across several instances where people have posted a problem. I have
searched the forums with information they posted and found results. I have also read
countless posts of the same basic questions asked over and over. Do the answers:
'Is the user a member of the wheel group?', 'Is the user a member of the audio group?'
ring any bells? These are the questions that don't need to continue to occur every
other day... but they will.
:?
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delta407
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We could have a screen pop up when a user clicks on "New topic" that says "Are you in the wheel/audio group?" where they have to check all the boxes before they're allowed to post. :D
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What gets me is how many of them are in the FAQ. I took a look at the FAQ the other day,
checking for a couple of items. I thought maybe there were some oversights, and it could
use updating. Nope, the FAQ had the answers farily plainly.
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delta407
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember, it's eaiser to ask a question in the forum than to look through several different pages of documentation. Though, a big "SEARCH BEFORE POSTING" banner and a working forum search engine would probably work well.

Either that or some system where certain people could compile problems and solutions (not wiki-style, that'd be a mess); like listing a problem ("I can't su to root") with one or more possible solutions (see if you're in the 'wheel' group, check the password, etc.) as well as cross-references (usage of the usermod command). I think we have enough manpower (and time) to create something like this that would be remotely effective in 70% of the situations...
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rac
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delta407 wrote:
Remember, it's eaiser to ask a question in the forum than to look through several different pages of documentation.


This is unfortunately true, and a problem that Usenet has struggled with forever (at least since the Endless September). However, there have been countless times in my personal experience where taking the time to try to find an answer to something myself ended up teaching me several totally unrelated things that came in handy at a later date.
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sulu
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think lack of patience is one of the key factor for not to use the search feature or rtfm. I frequently had to restrict myself not to post a question and find the solution by myself.
If some feature/program is not working it's nagging isn't it. The most frustrating is if you haven't got any idea whats going wrong. That really set's me up. So if you see some stupid standard question in the forum dont forget that a real drama might be behind.

But.
That's whats i've learned (just recently *blushing*). Take a deep breath, do something different, take a nap,... after some time new ideas pop up like bubbles in sparkling whater. Then its time for googeling, manual reading, you'll get closer to the solution.

At this point i want to thank all the moderators for doing such a great job in a very polite manner (most time, anyway ;-)).

Greetz
Sulu
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digitalnick
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dont mind pointing in the right direction all the time .... i know when i first started i asked about the sound not working and sho nuf not a member of the audio group especially in #gentoo i think when we point or answer questions repetivly other people just pick up answerer and then the info spreads more easily making it easier for incomming n00bs well i hope so anyway i guess i could be totally wrong and we all could just be wasting our tiem:-/


oh a feature i want ... set emerged progs to be dumped in /usr/local just a small wish
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KiTaSuMbA
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2002 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You people have no dreams...
:P

My dream would be that of changing the meaning of User Interface. Just jack-in with the chip implanted on your forearm and the physiotherapy that let you learn the commands & protocols. GUI my *ss!!! :twisted:
This is not impossible but there will be decades before it's even feasable
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BonezTheGoon
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
To get forum users to RTFM and search prior to posting a new question. Each time and every time.

Wow -- what a pipe dream.

--kurt


Or for those (obviously present) folks who demand to start their own dedicated thread given they don't have the time/patience/experience/[any-other-random-excuse] would at least provide SOME information in the original post. For instance if you are posting a question in the "Hardware" forum, don't you think it might be SLIGHTLY informative to mention some of the hardware you are using--I mean specifically what the hardware is. Just one of my personal rants anyway.

I understand that there are newbies and I certainly don't harp on anyone in any threads (not my place at all, or my style) but I thought this was a thread in "off the wall" where we could harmlessly do a brain-dump with out someone falling to pieces over wording. Hopefully we can all calm down and realize the reason that the majority of the people here that are no longer n00bs are here because they are trying to HELP others. This thread started as a relaxing area to discuss random thoughts that are otherwise meaningless and (ahem) improbable.

Anyway I'd also really like to see a really really cheap 32" CRT display (I prefer the quality of the higher refresh) that is say $200 and also is only the depth on my desk of a 21". How’s that for HIGHLY improbable.


As kindly and respectfully to ALL as you will accept,
BonezTheGoon
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iplayfast
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 9:18 pm    Post subject: It appears that moderators,helpers and nice folks, Reply with quote

get the same questions asked over and over again, and have to deliver the same answers over and over again. I understand and sympathize with both sides.

From the newbies perspective it's frustrating, having a problem, and doing the search but not seeing anything that might relate, or seeing dozens of things that might relate, but not knowing how close they are.

Here is a solution. Create a things to check FAQ.
Things like "You've got to be wheel to su". How intuitive. How about an explanation once and for all that says
:idea: 1. How to check the current status (to make sure that the fix really applys
to you).
:idea: 2. How to change make the fix. (if more then one fix, show the most common ones).
:idea: 3. An explanation of why this is, and the reasoning behind it. (I'll remember something better if I know why it should be done).

Because gentoo is so barebones to start, everything is configurable. Many linux users (myself in particular) have been spoiled with the Mandrakes of the world, where you give a general instruction and things magically happen for you. Well I'm here because I want the control, and speed that gentoo will give me. So, a good part of that control is the knowledge that is needed to successfully configure/debug settings.

This is my wish!
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BonezTheGoon
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another solution that I have personally been trying to implement is rather than explain and document again and again the same answers is to link to the existing thread. This helps in two major ways.

1) It helps the person asking the immediate question realize that the information was there to be had (without waiting for a reply) and they only needed to look (harder maybe) to find it.

2) It adds to the likelihood of a successful search for the NEXT person looking to ask the same general question. It does that because if we have thirty different threads that all ask (in different words given each person thinks differently) the same question and all point to one authoritative thread that is well established and well visited by experience users. This expands the "knowledge base" by having many different search terms that can all end in the same place.

So thats one small thing I try to do, just link to the info instead of repeating it all over again.

Regards,
BonezTheGoon
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iplayfast
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 9:42 pm    Post subject: yup, that's good Reply with quote

Linking to a thread is definitly a good thing.

I would still like a "Things To Check FAQ" (TTCFAQ), so all my common problems can be addressed in one area, and common solutions are applied.
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Hypnos
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2002 8:39 pm    Post subject: Complete GUI<-->CLI cross integration Reply with quote

I've written about this on OSNews, with no responses.

I want all of my tools to have both GUI and CLI interfaces. I want all of these front ends to talk to all other frontends. This way, I can choose what interface I want for what task. The "GUI=easy, CLI=hard" notion is false -- it depends on the task at hand.

For example, I want to pipe output from my Perl script to my GUI mail client. I want to pipe a web page to number crunching script. I want to use aterm as my Quake console.

Is CORBA a good way to do this?
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masseya
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delta407 wrote:
Though, a big "SEARCH BEFORE POSTING" banner and a working forum search engine would probably work well.

That's what I would like! Well, at least the working forum search engine. The current one is really clunky to work with and provides some poor responses.

Fortunatly, I think I have some chance of getting that. I'm sure there are people working on that right now. ;) The thing that I would like that I don't think I have a whole lot of chance of getting is a nice laptop keyboard. Those things are horrible and none of the ones I've used have been really nice.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my $.02:

I try to rtfm which usually means man pages. these have 2 problems.
1) Man pages are pretty complicated and i can read them and still not know how the command syntax works. I have seen some w/ examples at the bottom. I wish more had that.
2) Sometimes i don't know what FM to read. ex. There is no man sound.

And searches have their own problems. I am reluctant to do something i don't understand that worked in a similar situation, or amybe i already tried that. THose are the most common search results i get. I first turn to google, but i can rarely find answers to my obscure problems. Sometimes it works, but most howtos and such i find don't address what happens if something goes worng.
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