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 Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2002 1:14 pm Post subject: Curiosity, but let the cat live, OK? |
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I've used all the Mandrakes 8.X... I'm currently running Mandrake 8.2. I have a difficult PC and can't afford to drop a few hundred for a new mobo/CPU. When installing Mandrake 8.2, I frequently see the installer reboot mid install, or if I get through an install, I later find some permissions problems were caused by the installation, or maybe bad symlinks in critical system configuration files, etc. I call myself a newbie because I wish to use the PC, not get a degree in computer forensics!
I think I want to get into a distro that doesn't 'package' me to death... RPM dependancies usually breakdown, and to be honest, I don't want to use 'DEB' simply because it is (to me) just another name for 'RPM' - same problems invoked by a different text string.
You folks probably already know why: CLI stuff gets real tiring when you go through an hour long session of 'RPM -whatprovidesthispackage' and 'RPM -whatdoesthispackageprovide' but you only end up deciding that maybe you can live without all the supposed 'dependants' which are not really dependants at all. These 'packages' amount to stupid decisions which bloat my install for no real reason.
Let me ask these questions rhetorically (you'll still get to know my history):
I'd like to know why Gnome 'requires' Nautilus when XWC works for me (I don't want a desktop manager: I despise desktop trashcans, desktop folders, desktop URL Links, minimized applications are just more desktop clutter). Nautilus is to me just another slow and klunky 'browser wannabe' (remember the slogan: 'where do I want to go today'?).
Also for example, click the Mandrake installation menu item which is supposed to provide for Internet/Web connectivity. I'd like to know why I need multiple html browsers: Mozilla is included for showing you that a new browser is 'on its way' and gets used for displaying Mandrakes user and reference documents - ok, that browser gets used. Galeon is faster but not used for anything by Mandrake. Why bother using a slower clunkier browser? Netscape is usually not used at all - why bother installing it? A 4th 'pseudo' browser is there for displaying Mandrakes online help system. and most ironically, a 5th text based browser (Lynx) is never installed by default, yet the html help docs would be needed most when the GUI fails (and when the GUI fails, all those html browsers are not available to use to read the html howto) - the text browser is not even installed unless you are using an expert install and would not need the html files in the first place!!
Users are forced to install stuff which the distro people decide about. Sure, you can rearrange this 'later time'; but this 'later time' usually comes after you learn that something was broken by the package you didn't need or didn't want in the first place. 
And then there is the 'So many packages, but never the ones I want' problem  .
End of rhetorical questions: those problems are why I'm looking at LFS and source based distros. 
Due to my current hardware concerns, I suspect my plan to drop Mandrake for a different distro may fail because I simply do not have the ability to post message in pseudo real time. The current box will need some deep tweaking, much of the simple stuff is beyond my abilities so I'll need lotsa help, and forum posting will make manually installing a distro into a 3 month job - add in the fact that my ISP is NetZero (Windows only) and my hub just fried in the last thunderstorm, so the Linux box can't surf, can't even share connections. I can't post until the next day. I'm looking into buying better mobo hardware, stuff which doesn't need deep tweaking, but seriously, I haven't enough cash for middle of the road hardware; I can't count on getting different hardware. I also cannot download packages on the fly, so I will need to have it all on a CD which I will burn at work and bring home for use in the evening. Everything, tarballs, dependancies, howto, VIM, an html browser, boot images, the whole thing.
The point of my post, now that you know my situation: Is Gentoo a choice for me? |
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dunbar
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2002 1:16 pm Post subject: Cat here |
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| Does login time out? I posted the above message after I was logged in, so I'm not really a guest.... |
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lain iwakura
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Joined: 09 May 2002
Posts: 176
Location: sd, ca
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2002 9:54 am Post subject: |
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it's definitely a choice for you. sounds like you have a lot of problems -- getting online and such. but aside from that, there is hope.
i used to use mandrake before gentoo, off and on (more of a windows user not too long ago.)  anyways, I always loved updating to the latest and greatest thing for win -- and that caried over to my linux use. saying that, I always ran into rpm hell, as well. the more I learned the ways of linux, trying to compile from source, reading docs, I would always run into mandrake specific issues and such (not everything, of coarse.) pretty much HOW a mandrake box is set up - dir structure, for example. frustrated with this, I started looking for alternatives.
luckily, i stumbled upon gentoo first. no gripes whatsoever now. it gives you complete control and freedom to install whatever you want and it does it right. keep in mind, there is also the added weight of setting up everything pretty much from scratch -- but I don't think it should be too much of a problem for someone who has had at least some linux exp.
emerging packages and compiling are pretty much automatic -- no need for configuring -- unless you want to. again, you have the power and freedom! 
however you get gentoo, cd, download the stage 3 iso -- you won't regret it.
p.s. - i use dialup.
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dunbar
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Joined: 29 May 2002
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2002 11:52 am Post subject: But can I stand all that configuration? |
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| lain iwakura wrote: | it's definitely a choice for you. sounds like you have a lot of problems -- getting online and such. but aside from that, there is hope.
SNIP
however you get gentoo, cd, download the stage 3 iso -- you won't regret it.
p.s. - i use dialup. |
Thanks for replying!
The problems I have with Mandrake seem to be related to the presumed decisions which are made by the install script/process/thingie. The installation results are always different, no matter how hard I try to be selective and detail oriented about the packages I choose to install via Mandrake 8.2. And RPM adds to the problems when I manage to figure out (and also untangle) wherever Mandrake went nuts.
I'm thinking Gentoo is good for me because I get to do the (mis)configuring myself and can make all the other errors myself. Not that I'm a Linux CLI freak, though. I did write simple batch files and all my config files in DOS. That said, I'm hoping that Gentoo will actually become comfortable for me. If not, I will again walk away from a distro when I cannot become comfortable administering it. This tarball stuff seems like the next step up in functionality, but might actually add 3 or 4 steps up in complexity from RPM/APT/DEB/whatever package methods.
So far, Gentoo is not off to a real good start: I printed the instructions and as I glanced at the prints (did not actually read them)..... out of nowhere, I see 'emerge this' and 'emerge that'. Whoa.... did I just switch strings from 'RPM' to 'emerge'??
We'll see: I'm still willing to try Gentoo, but I had been led to believe that Gentoo was a source based distro. To me, 'emerging' and creating 'packages' is not, from what I have read, a true source based install: if I have to use the resulting package (which was generated by 'emerge') as the installation source, then why mince words - this is a 'build your own package on the fly' distro, not truly source based. Yes, the package is custom built on my PC, but it really isn't custom built for my PC hardware that way.
Enough rambling.
I d/l'd the stage 3, but got a bad d/l, so I gotta restart... oh dopey me, I neglected checking the MD5sum.
EDIT: there are no md5sums for the stage 3 ISO on the ibiblio site???
I think I can... I think I can... I think I can... I think I can... |
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lain iwakura
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Joined: 09 May 2002
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Location: sd, ca
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2002 2:26 am Post subject: |
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little tip for mandrake install:
just install everything.
actually, i've never ran into problems with mandrake's install, but that really isn't the topic of these forums.
well, good luck with gentoo.
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Xaanin
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Joined: 09 Jun 2002
Posts: 26
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2002 7:06 am Post subject: Re: But can I stand all that configuration? |
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So far, Gentoo is not off to a real good start: I printed the instructions and as I glanced at the prints (did not actually read them)..... out of nowhere, I see 'emerge this' and 'emerge that'. Whoa.... did I just switch strings from 'RPM' to 'emerge'??
We'll see: I'm still willing to try Gentoo, but I had been led to believe that Gentoo was a source based distro. To me, 'emerging' and creating 'packages' is not, from what I have read, a true source based install: if I have to use the resulting package (which was generated by 'emerge') as the installation source, then why mince words - this is a 'build your own package on the fly' distro, not truly source based. Yes, the package is custom built on my PC, but it really isn't custom built for my PC hardware that way.
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Basicly, what emerge does is download the source, md5check it, run the configure script (you can specify custom use flags or whatever they might be called), then runs make with whatever optimizations you chose to use. It's good since it will still download anything that the package really needs, like if you try to install fluxbox it will first download and compile X-windows. |
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kraylus
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Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 648
Location: ft.worth.tx
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Whoa.... did I just switch strings from 'RPM' to 'emerge'?? |
haha! hardly, my friend 
as the last poster said, emerge is sort of like the freebsd ports system. ill assume you dont know what that is so let me explain. first off emerge is not a package file. it's a command.
lets say you want to install galeon (blech!)
once you hit enter, what happens is portage determines whether or not you need any sort of dependency for galeon. i know for sure that galeon requires mozilla to run so if you dont have mozilla, portage will add that to the list. mozilla requires several dependencies of its own too.
in the end, you're going to have a small (or long) list of items that portage will need to install the desired package. it'll start with the first most package required (think of it as a hierarchy), download the source, compile it for your specific processor, install it, and move on to the next until the package you wanted originally is done compiling and installing.
the neat thing about it is that everything's custom made for YOUR computer and hardware. this translates to: it's going to be the fastest fscking distro you ever ran.
WARNING! depending on the speed of your hardware, compilation of the original core system could take as long as over night. possibly more. so if you don't mind being without a computer for a couple days.... have at it!
as for installation help while you're actually installing... if you know of a friend with a remote server that has a CLI based irc client, you can logon to the #gentoo channel on irc.openprojects.net and get help old-school style 
if you do manage to find the time to get gentoo up and running for your machine, i promise it... you wont be disappointed.
though im still having a hell of a time getting this bloody GPM SERVER TO WORK AFTER I START X!!
hehe... ignore that
ryan
p.s. if you more advanced gentoo users feel that i didnt convey the concept of portage accurately, i apologise.
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dunbar
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Joined: 29 May 2002
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2002 12:19 pm Post subject: Cat is choking on a tarball |
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Ahh, thats more like it..... responses!
From my first post: 'so the Linux box can't surf, can't even share connections'.... thus
1] will I be able to redirect emerge to using a local CDROM as a data source? And even if I do get emerge redirected to the CDROM,
2] what happens when this human did not burn 'all the other things the package needs'.... will emerge barf and barf and barf until the whole system is totally trashed? Sounds like it won't trash my filesystem at this point. Hint: I've seen a lot of software which choked severly on such a simple error, so I really feel I must ask the stupid questions.
3] Does emerge check for adequate partition space before beginning the installation? The example of downloading XFree86 when I ask for Fluxbox makes me shudder if my Linux partition is only a few gigs. Not everyone has 50 gigs of partition space to spare.
Kraylus - I'll reply to your post separately. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2002 12:35 pm Post subject: Catwalk |
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| kraylus wrote: | | Quote: | | Whoa.... did I just switch strings from 'RPM' to 'emerge'?? |
haha! hardly, my friend
as the last poster said, emerge is sort of like the freebsd ports system. ill assume you dont know what that is so let me explain. first off emerge is not a package file. it's a command.
lets say you want to install galeon (blech!)
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Hey! I like Galeon more than I like Mozilla!!! 
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once you hit enter, what happens is portage determines
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Uh-oh, you twisted your terms... what am I running Emerge or portage? 
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the neat thing about it is that everything's custom made for YOUR computer and hardware. this translates to: it's going to be the fastest fscking distro you ever ran.
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Exactly what I was looking for! PIII/500s simply do not set the pace anymore, and any optimization I can generate will help a lot. But that raises questions about the depth of my knowledge....
Will I need to know arcane trivia about my hardware? Things like "well, since my BIOS is disabling ACPI, I need to add the rubber-ingot switch to the --config.foo in order to get an installation which properly adds ACPI detection when the rhumba-rhumba package calls for it"??? And many more questions which I cannot begin to formulate.
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WARNING! depending on the speed of your hardware, compilation of the original core system could take as long as over night. possibly more. so if you don't mind being without a computer for a couple days.... have at it!
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Biiiiig problem there: my house us very rural.... power goes out many times a week, sometimes only brownout and return (because the tree branch burned through really quickly), sometimes out for several minutes.
Heh - we don't all live connected to standby power system which can kick in within 3 seconds!
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as for installation help while you're actually installing... if you know of a friend with a remote server that has a CLI based irc client, you can logon to the #gentoo channel on irc.openprojects.net and get help old-school style
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From my first post (buried in the depths):
'so the Linux box can't surf, can't even share connections'
:-/
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if you do manage to find the time to get gentoo up and running for your machine, i promise it... you wont be disappointed.
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Sigh... such a long way to go before I can feel your relief.... |
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dunbar
n00b
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2002 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Catwalk |
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There goes that #$$%#@##$ timeout thing again!!!!
Is the time limit a user defined value? I can't find it anywhere, so please tell me where I can set it to a higher value.
| Anonymous wrote: | | kraylus wrote: | | Quote: | | Whoa.... did I just switch strings from 'RPM' to 'emerge'?? |
haha! hardly, my friend
as the last poster said, emerge is sort of like the freebsd ports system. ill assume you dont know what that is so let me explain. first off emerge is not a package file. it's a command.
lets say you want to install galeon (blech!)
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Hey! I like Galeon more than I like Mozilla!!!
| Quote: |
once you hit enter, what happens is portage determines
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Uh-oh, you twisted your terms... what am I running Emerge or portage?
| Quote: |
the neat thing about it is that everything's custom made for YOUR computer and hardware. this translates to: it's going to be the fastest fscking distro you ever ran.
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Exactly what I was looking for! PIII/500s simply do not set the pace anymore, and any optimization I can generate will help a lot. But that raises questions about the depth of my knowledge....
Will I need to know arcane trivia about my hardware? Things like "well, since my BIOS is disabling ACPI, I need to add the rubber-ingot switch to the --config.foo in order to get an installation which properly adds ACPI detection when the rhumba-rhumba package calls for it"??? And many more questions which I cannot begin to formulate.
| Quote: |
WARNING! depending on the speed of your hardware, compilation of the original core system could take as long as over night. possibly more. so if you don't mind being without a computer for a couple days.... have at it!
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Biiiiig problem there: my house us very rural.... power goes out many times a week, sometimes only brownout and return (because the tree branch burned through really quickly), sometimes out for several minutes.
Heh - we don't all live connected to standby power system which can kick in within 3 seconds!
| Quote: |
as for installation help while you're actually installing... if you know of a friend with a remote server that has a CLI based irc client, you can logon to the #gentoo channel on irc.openprojects.net and get help old-school style
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From my first post (buried in the depths):
'so the Linux box can't surf, can't even share connections'
:-/
| Quote: |
if you do manage to find the time to get gentoo up and running for your machine, i promise it... you wont be disappointed.
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Sigh... such a long way to go before I can feel your relief.... |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2002 6:53 am Post subject: |
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In my humble opinions...
If the linux box doesn't have an internet connection of any kind, then Gentoo is probably not the distribution for you. See other threads on the hassles of remote-downloading packages.
If you're not comfortable with a base linux system, before anything as fancy as X has been loaded, then Gentoo is probably not the distribution for you. Sure, it can be set up to be nice 'n user friendly, but the install process is best served with a good deal of technical knowledge about your system -- not for the compilation, which is so easy an untrained monkey could do it with a rubber mallet, but for the post-install configuration, such as setting up X.
You might want to take a good look at Debian. It's still, I hear, not the most user-friendly distribution out there, but it works with binary packages quite well -- you can stuff Debian on a CD.
You're right to say that the mainline distributions' RPM systems cause dependency hell, but this is really more a function of the overall package management than the individual package system. RPM's and DEB's are, as files, about equivalent in function, but Debian packages everything in its apt system, which manages the dependencies for you quite well -- as well as Gentoo.
RedHat, et. all, however, don't provide nearly as much dependency magement, so attempting to build a system off of rpm's requires maintainer-attention to be paid to dependencies which are automated in the Debian, Gentoo systems. |
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lain iwakura
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Joined: 09 May 2002
Posts: 176
Location: sd, ca
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:07 am Post subject: |
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some more thoughts i'd like to add:
after using gentoo for about 2 months now, i can honestly say that i'll never use another distro again (or if i ever have to, it will be something similar. )
going back to something else -- no way. going back to something else would mean giving up the sweet control you have with a source based distro.
granted, my skills with linux before gentoo were average. now, i feel that there's no limit but my own inititave.
bottomline, i think -- if you are obssesed with having the latest and greatest, wel, gentoo is for you.
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dunbar
n00b
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 11:30 am Post subject: OK |
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| Hearing that Gentoo cannot handle 'non internet' installs, at least from what I hear from the posters, not without hassles, I'll have to conclude that this is not the distro for me. |
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lain iwakura
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Joined: 09 May 2002
Posts: 176
Location: sd, ca
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:30 am Post subject: |
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well, if you get a cd with the all the sources already on it, then you wouldn't have to ever connect to the internet.
but then who wouldn't want to be on the next (unless for some reason, they couldn't.)
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