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Naib
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 Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Albert_Alligator wrote: | what the hell does your sex have to do with Linux?
On the Internet, we are all anonymous. You don't know who's really a man or a woman, and even when they make a claim one way or the other, usually, there's no way to confirm unless you meet them face to face.
To the people saying women are timid or shy to say anything..... what the hell???? No more than men are..... Did you ever just think that Linux (especially Gentoo) just doesn't appeal to most women?
This whole "We have to get <name your group> more involved in <name your cause/interest/project>" BS has to stop.... just let people be who they are. If women want to get involved, they will, and in a way that is best suited to them....not in a way that others try and fashion for them. |
Agread!!!
Those that think that women need some kind of path and sheltered area to get involved really do not know women!!!
the one think I can say hand on my heart abt women is IF they want to do something they are going to do it
so If a women wants to get involved in Gentoo they will!
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aidy
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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um...
why can't it be a place for the gentoo women to chat with eachother... ??? |
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occ
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aidy
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN |
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dlk
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Joined: 16 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Aidy wrote: | | YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN |
Yes, he/she/it does know what you mean, he/she/it is just splitting hairs to make his/her/it's point.
I fully support the idea of gentoo-women. I think it would be a great addition to the current plethora of gentoo special interest groups, and I look forward to participate.
/dlk
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occ
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Aidy wrote: | | YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN |
I'm not deaf.
and no, I don't 'know' what you mean, since at no point, in Christel's proposal, did the stated goal was to provide a space for 'women to "chat" with "eachother"'!!!! I disagree with Christel's premises, but at least _I_ do not msirepresent her proposal as a mere 'girl-only chatroom'.
| dlk wrote: |
Yes, he/she/it does know what you mean,...
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Don't get so confused, pick one - either 'he', 'she' or even 'it'. I am secure enough in my sexuality not to be offended either way. But by all means, spare me the 'gender neutral patronizing' bullshit.
| dlk wrote: |
[...]and I look forward to participate.
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Gee, Gentoo Woman DO attract new vocations. it apparently motivated you to post your very first message... good for you. |
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dlk
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| occ wrote: |
| dlk wrote: |
Yes, he/she/it does know what you mean,...
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Don't get so confused, pick one - either 'he', 'she' or even 'it'. I am secure enough in my sexuality not to be offended either way. But by all means, spare me the 'gender neutral patronizing' bullshit.
| dlk wrote: |
[...]and I look forward to participate.
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Gee, Gentoo Woman DO attract new vocations. it apparently motivated you to post your very first message... good for you. |
Gee, are we sensitive about this or what?
Dude, or whatever the heck you are: You have still to produce any convincing, logical reason to why you are so passionately against the idea of a women-biased group of gentoo users, as opposed to, say, an apache-biased group of gentoo users. Is there anything evil and wrong with this part of Cristel's proposal?
| christel wrote: |
Debian Women, founded in 2004, was set up to encourage women to become more involved with Linux. The group maintains an IRC channel and a mailing list for the discussion of technical issues, as well as maintaining a public presence at Linux-related conferences and events. They also run an extensive mentoring program whereby women are paired up with a mentor who will spend the time to help them find answers to their questions, and get to know the distribution, as well as the community and Linux in general. This mentoring program adds a personal element to the process, and helps to guide people towards working more effectively with Linux. Unfortunately though, as the name implies, their efforts focus very much on encouraging their members to use Debian.
The idea was recently floated of starting a similar project for the women of Gentoo (...snip rest...)
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Most of the arguments against this initiative that I have seen on these 17 pages long thread, are of the type "I have not experienced any problems myself, so I don't grok the need for this".
Which is an OK opinion to have, but if you have it then please do not beĺittle the opinion and experieces and desires of those that HAVE had a problem with attitude, treatment and arrogance simply based on the fact that they are women.
In fact, the first reply to the post was | G2k wrote: | | Who cares about women using Linux? Seriously. |
So, maybe, just maybe, christel has a point... at least any reasonable humane human being would be open to the possibility.
/dlk
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runningwithscissors
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| dlk wrote: |
Dude, or whatever the heck you are: You have still to produce any convincing, logical reason to why you are so passionately against the idea of a women-biased group of gentoo users, as opposed to, say, an apache-biased group of gentoo users. Is there anything evil and wrong with this part of Cristel's proposal?
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Nothing being wrong with the idea does not necessarily mean that it is a good idea. As far as Gentoo relevant discussion or actions go, they are absolutely gender neutral. The way a woman compiles a kernel is not much diffrent from the way a man does it. The way the OS is marketed to people is gender neutral too. And if women users have some great ideas about how Gentoo must progress, why should the men be kept out of listening to them, or commenting on them, or even actively getting involved with them? |
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dlk
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| runningwithscissors wrote: | | Nothing being wrong with the idea does not necessarily mean that it is a good idea. |
But does it make it a bad one?
| runningwithscissors wrote: | | And if women users have some great ideas about how Gentoo must progress, why should the men be kept out of listening to them, or commenting on them, or even actively getting involved with them? |
Aha, I think we are actually getting somewhere... what gives you the impression that you would be kept out? Why do you fear that?
/dlk
Edit: added a reply on top
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Naib
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| dlk wrote: |
Aha, I think we are actually getting somewhere... what gives you the impression that you would be kept out? Why do you fear that?
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I would not go as far as calling it a fear, I would go as far as say thining out.
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runningwithscissors
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| dlk wrote: | | runningwithscissors wrote: | | Nothing being wrong with the idea does not necessarily mean that it is a good idea. |
But does it make it a bad one?
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In this case, it does. As there is absolutely no need for an initiative like that. I've already stated why. Because a gender specific perspective is of little use in the progress of a Linux distro.
| dlk wrote: |
| runningwithscissors wrote: | | And if women users have some great ideas about how Gentoo must progress, why should the men be kept out of listening to them, or commenting on them, or even actively getting involved with them? |
Aha, I think we are actually getting somewhere... what gives you the impression that you would be kept out? Why do you fear that?
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erm........the moment that men start to get involved in it means that it is no longer "women-centric". Thereby defeating the purpose of the initiative. Which brings us back to the community as it is today.
And also, you seem to see some "fear" in my suggestion. Please drop the amateur psychoanalysis. Professional psychiatrists have enough trouble perfecting the art. |
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dlk
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| runningwithscissors wrote: | | dlk wrote: | | runningwithscissors wrote: | | Nothing being wrong with the idea does not necessarily mean that it is a good idea. |
But does it make it a bad one?
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In this case, it does. As there is absolutely no need for an initiative like that. I've already stated why. Because a gender specific perspective is of little use in the progress of a Linux distro.
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What do you base that perspective on? I mean, you boldly state it as a Fact of Life, more or less, so I assume that you have som basis for it. I am curious on what led you to it. What is it about this case that makes it so different from the rest of our daily reality? I mean, sure, it is the internet, but the internet is an artefact of the western civilisation, and as such it is governed by the same values as is the rest of the western civilisation is governed by; so the same kind of marginalisation of women you see in the real world, you will see on the internet. It is inherent in the structure of our society. *That* is a fact of life, and if you don't see it, it is because you are not attentive enough.
As a male, it is hard to see it for several reasons, one of them being that is not fun to see that behaviour in one self. The first step is to become aware of it, then we can start acting on it.
| runningwithscissors wrote: | | And also, you seem to see some "fear" in my suggestion. Please drop the amateur psychoanalysis. Professional psychiatrists have enough trouble perfecting the art. |
hehe... you are an amusing character 
/dlk
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dlk
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | dlk wrote: |
Aha, I think we are actually getting somewhere... what gives you the impression that you would be kept out? Why do you fear that?
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I would not go as far as calling it a fear, I would go as far as say thining out. |
Thinning out what? A 98-2 ratio? Come on...
/dlk
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Naib
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| dlk wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | dlk wrote: |
Aha, I think we are actually getting somewhere... what gives you the impression that you would be kept out? Why do you fear that?
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I would not go as far as calling it a fear, I would go as far as say thining out. |
Thinning out what? A 98-2 ratio? Come on...
/dlk |
you are mis-interpreting the wording.
Thinning out of where to find a solution.
It has already been pointed out time and time and time and time and time and.....
...
....
...
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That the problems women will face in using Gentoo are EXACTLY the same problems men will face! so if in say "desktops" there is an open discussion into a particular solution with say GNOME, within say the women sub-forum a similar situation is occuring, who is going to cross-read? only those that know about both-threads.
...
ANYWAY if this occurs (and it will) forum rules state that both threads should be merged defeating the point of a womens-only sub-forum
...
If one of these forums comes up with a key stage to help solve the solution three things could happed
1) those in the other sub-forum who are folling their thread are stuck with this "problem" even tho though progress is being made in the other
2) someone is cross-reading and this key step then is cross-posted and infact the entire problem is fixed, but a kind of cutious cross-post was forgotten about and the other sub-forum are left trying to solve an already solved problem (not out of spite this forgetting, it is easily done. I have done it).
3) someone relgiosly ensures that problems that are requesting solutions that are solved in one sub is then mirrored to the other - NOT going to happen
This has happened to me with the German forum with a problem I had about 2years ago. Someone did say that the German/French/... would be more then happy enough to translate their solution (which they are) but it didn't stop this thinning out from occuring in the first place.
Now ok languages are a special case, but with the Womens?
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runningwithscissors
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| dlk wrote: |
| runningwithscissors wrote: |
In this case, it does. As there is absolutely no need for an initiative like that. I've already stated why. Because a gender specific perspective is of little use in the progress of a Linux distro.
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What do you base that perspective on? I mean, you boldly state it as a Fact of Life, more or less, so I assume that you have som basis for it. I am curious on what led you to it. What is it about this case that makes it so different from the rest of our daily reality? I mean, sure, it is the internet, but the internet is an artefact of the western civilisation, and as such it is governed by the same values as is the rest of the western civilisation is governed by; so the same kind of marginalisation of women you see in the real world, you will see on the internet. It is inherent in the structure of our society. *That* is a fact of life, and if you don't see it, it is because you are not attentive enough.
As a male, it is hard to see it for several reasons, one of them being that is not fun to see that behaviour in one self. The first step is to become aware of it, then we can start acting on it.
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I fail to see any specific areas of linux development/proliferation that would benefit from such a move. Or its current popularity among women, considering that there exist absolutely no barriers at all at the present time that prevent women from trying out or contributing to Gentoo Linux.
If you can actually see any "marginalisation" occurring, of any distinguishable section of people, regarding Gentoo Linux, please feel free to point it out. It would help remedy my unawareness, as suggested by you, of it. |
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occ
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Joined: 06 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| dlk wrote: |
: You have still to produce any convincing, logical reason to why you are so passionately against the idea of a women-biased group of gentoo users, as opposed to, say, an apache-biased group of gentoo users.
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you mean 'apache' as the web-server software or 'apache' as the native-american tribe ?
In case of the former, I'd point out that one _chose_ to have an interest in the apache web server.
In the case of the later, there are two aspect. either you mean a sub-forum based on the apache language, or based on the apache bloodline.
In case of the language, there is an argument to be made that the choice of the language used in the forum is arbitrary. English is a common choice because it is spoken and understood by many, including many non-native english speaking people. But indeed one sould argue that english should not be an absolute pre-req to linux, hence allowing a speace for non-english speaker is fine. It has it's problem, like someone else explained earlier, but it has some merit.
If it is about the bloodline, then my level of opposition would be the same.
| dlk wrote: |
the internet is an artefact of the western civilisation
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I'm not sure if I should laugh of cry at this kind of simplitisct rethoric.
| Quote: |
so the same kind of marginalisation of women you see in the real world,
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How are you going to 'marginalize' someone based on a criteria you cannot determine, namely 'gender'.
| Quote: |
It is inherent in the structure of our society
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I strongly suggest you do get out a bit, visit the rest of the world, or at the very least read about it. and stop making assumption about what is 'our'.
| Quote: | | " *That* is a fact of life," |
Since the argument is based on bogus assertion, the conclusion is meaningless.
| Quote: | | Is there anything evil and wrong with this part of Cristel's proposal? |
Yes, I think there is something 'evil' and insulting in institutionalising the bogus notion that women are somehow 'challenged' and need special help or thtt they cannot make it on merit alone. |
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occ
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: |
If one of these forums comes up with a key stage to help solve the solution three things could happed
[...]
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That's a good pragmatical reason. I didn't consider it, thanks. |
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aidy
l33t
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| well it's pretty clear that there are more woman bad with computers than there are men... ? |
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occ
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Aidy wrote: | | well it's pretty clear that there are more woman bad with computers than there are men... ? |
No. The only thing that is supported by data here is that there are many more men that are passionate about writing code than women.
But these men and women are a very very tiny portion of the general population.
Let's say - and I just make up the numbers for the sake of illustration, but still probably right as far as the order of magnitude goes -
let's say that there is 1% of the male population that care about coding for FLOSS project. let's say (based on the annouced ratio) that there is 0.02% of the women that do., that leave us with 99% of the men and 99.98% of the women that don't, the difference betweent he last two number is less than 1%... By large there are very similar proportion of people that do not care about coding amoung male and female.
The whole story about 'woman bad with computers', is just as baseless as the story about women being 'bad driver'.
Just because you don't care about the type of transmission or the horse power of your car doesn't make you a 'bad driver'. Just because you don't care about racing or you don't know how to take your engine apart and put it back together doesn't mean your a 'bad driver'. (and BTW a huge majority of male driver do not care for these things either)
Same goes for computer.
The only thing that matter here is that IF you care about something you CAN do it. So long as anyone who care to praticipate in Gentoo is welcome to do so, There is no 'problem'.
To follow up with the car analogy. Gentoo is the ultimate custom car for the masses(*) department. If your car is just a engine on wheel that take you places, then this is probably not the right place for you.
(*) for the masses, because one of the beauty of gentoo is that it allows to custumized specific part without having to master the whole thing. (it doesn't take any 'expertise' to type emerge -e world  ) If you really care about mastering every details, then LFS (Linux From Scratch) is probably a good place to start. |
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dlk
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Joined: 16 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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well, like I said, I support the idea of a women biased gentoo special interest group. I think it would be beneficial, for the community at large.
I honestly cannot assemble enough energy to respond to people that, in IMHO, cannot think outside of their own box and just repeat their own arguments (and no, I am not trying to be sarcastic or mean here). I have been out in the real world, and I have been forced to reevaluate my ingrained beliefs and change my own behaviour, so I am not just making bogus assumptions.
In any event, i think that a gentoo-women initiative will not only be beneficial for the women interested ion gentoo and linux at large, but in the long term also for people like occ, runnngwithscissors, nied, and others that so aggressively oppose the idea.
I hope that this initiative does not die before it starts simply because a small but very vocal part of the gentoo community is against it.
To those that so passionately are against the idea, I just ask that you stop bashing it. Give it space and time to form and move forward and time will tell whether it will fill a need or not. If someone has an itch, why deny them the right to scratch it?
/dlk
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occ
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| dlk wrote: |
but in the long term also for people like occ, runnngwithscissors, nied, and others that so aggressively oppose the idea.
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Where do you see any 'agression' ? Just being against an idea for logical, moral, pragmatical or whatever reason one may have, is consitered 'agression' now ?
| Quote: | I hope that this initiative does not die before it starts simply because a small but very vocal part of the gentoo community is against it.
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How do you know that a 'small part' is against it, what allow you to take any 'silent' voice as sympathetic to 'your' point of view ? AS a matter of fact the proponent of your idea, in their published 'study' found that FLOSS participant share overwhelmingly one code value: "meritocracy". i.e let the best code , the best design, the best everything, prevail. They also share overwhelmingly the notion that gender is not a valid criteria in evaluating merit, nor is color, height, weight, hair cut or tatoo for that matter. In other words, an ebuild is no better or worse based on the presumed gender of its author.
| Quote: |
To those that so passionately are against the idea, I just ask that you stop bashing it.
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First there is no 'bashing' involved.
Second, why on earth, if I am so passionate about it, would I give up ? Just because you said so ? would you ?
| Quote: |
Give it space and time to form and move forward and time will tell whether it will fill a need or not.
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This has been done many times already. Debian woman, KDE Women, are more than 2 years old, LinuxChicks is 7 years old... This is not a 'new concept', nor a 'new idea', it has been tried, and the result confirmed what a face value analysis predicted. So time has told already.
| Quote: |
If someone has an itch, why deny them the right to scratch it?
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you can scratch you own back as much as you want. That's not a problem. The problem is when you want to do that in the name of others.
You may genuinely think that you are not capable of contributing on your own merit - and therefore need crutch. But that's your itch. Do not insult women in general by pretenting that this is an inherent 'female' problem.
Women are smart enough to be England's prime minister, Germany's chancelor and quite possibly the next French president (2007 election will likely be a duel between Segolene Royal and Nicolas Sarkosy)... so much for women being 'marginalized' in 'western society'. Yet still no woman world champion of chess or Medal Fields recipient... and the later have nothing to do with a sexist conspiracy to keep women 'marginalized' from these topics.
While we're at it, why not create a lkml-women mailing list ? after all there are not that many women kernel dev either, surely that must be because they are 'marginalized' by notorious macho like Linus, Andrew, Alan, and all these others chauvinistic pigs (like Val Henson ) right? |
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smiffy
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:51 am Post subject: |
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Some people would like their own little corner to meet? Are they going to be building WMDs in there? Committing human rights violations? No? Just do it. Nobody is under any obligation to go there, if they don't like it.
EDIT: Maybe Cristel should have just got something set up and presented it as a fait accompli - on the basis that "it is easier to seek forgiveness than permission". |
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AstroTux
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 03 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:58 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
If it gets more (in this case, women) using Linux, then why is this a bad idea?? I know of only 1 woman who could be considered a "geek" and is an IT Pro; the rest don't care what goes on underneath, so long as it works. If that makes that figure 2 women, why not?
I think there is an element of conditioning though which is why women are less likely to do this kind of thing vs. men. How many men do you know who knit?  It is a similar thing with computing and women.
Best regards,
AstroTux.
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lisa
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: |
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A 17 page flamewar? Get a grip people. 
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Dralnu
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| lisa wrote: | | A 17 page flamewar? Get a grip people. |
Page 11, half way up was the last post by Christel. I think its time someone locked this thread, or moved it to OTW. It has gotten out of hand.
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