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blietaer
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 12:27 pm    Post subject: [amd64] general philosophy Reply with quote

Quite happy with my amd64 install.
I like very much Gentoo's methodology (packages, conf scripts, ..)

However, I was wondering about philosophy, especially about the amd64 archy :

[My PC is a amd64 3500+ - 1Go RAM dual rail - SATA WD160]]

1./ So many things are masked in portage due to a "~amd64" flag (auto defined?). It's a real pitty: I just can't have important SW (open office, nbtscan, flash plugin for firefox,..) or even stupid games (enigma). The rest is cool, running, stable ...but is it a mistake to use this amd64? looks like a real filter to me...

2./ USE is meant to be a great optimizing thing, but I am so scared to forget to put something in it...thus I have a very long list of flags in this env. variable...a stupid mistake too? should I keep it simple? Should I add "-kde -qt" if I want to run gnome only? what if I still want amarok?

3./ It is soooooooo slow to compile (emerge) a new simple (or at least wht seems simple to me) application...is it because it's a fresh install and many libs need to be installed yet? is it because the amd64 is not OK? because I put too much in USE?

4./ I have "4 conf files that need to be updated" says emerge..can I know which ones?

Sorry for this heavy questionning...

Thank you!
++

PS: I _do_ RTFM..but, hey google is nobody's friend and forums are so powerfull in keeping the internet human... :wink:

Here is my /etc/make.conf
Code:
# These settings were set by the catalyst build script that automatically built this stage
# Please consult /etc/make.conf.example for a more detailed example
CFLAGS="-march=k8 -O2 -pipe"
CHOST="x86_64-pc-linux-gnu"
CXXFLAGS="${CFLAGS}"
MAKEOPTS="-j2"


GENTOO_MIRRORS="http://ftp.belnet.be/mirror/rsync.gentoo.org/gentoo/ ftp://ftp.belnet.be/mirror/rsync.gentoo.org/gentoo/ ftp://mirror.scarlet-internet.nl/pub/gentoo "

SYNC="rsync://rsync.europe.gentoo.org/gentoo-portage"
USE="X a52 aac acpi apache bzip2 cups dvd ftp gif gtk gtk2 gnome -qt -kde -ieee1394 jabber java javascript jpeg mozilla mp3 mpeg mysql msn ncurses alsa cdr png samba ssl tcltk usb"

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lxg
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: [amd64] general philosophy Reply with quote

I have an AMD64 notebook; and if you want my opinion, you'll gonna get it. ;-)

blietaer wrote:
1./ So many things are masked in portage due to a "~amd64" flag (auto defined?). It's a real pitty: I just can't have important SW (open office, nbtscan, flash plugin for firefox,..) or even stupid games (enigma). The rest is cool, running, stable ...but is it a mistake to use this amd64? looks like a real filter to me...


I have ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~amd64 amd64" in my /etc/make.conf. It runs very stable, I can't remember any major crackups. So I guess you don't need to be afraid of ~amd64; just put it into your make.conf; or unmask packages selectively in /etc/portage/package.unmask

Quote:
2./ USE is meant to be a great optimizing thing, but I am so scared to forget to put something in it...thus I have a very long list of flags in this env. variable...a stupid mistake too? should I keep it simple? Should I add "-kde -qt" if I want to run gnome only? what if I still want amarok?


Usually this won't be a problem; the packages should set mandatory flags by themselves. But you can still set USE flags selectively in /etc/portage/package.use. Btw, I've seen longer lists of USE variables; some people put entire dictonairies into their USE flag. ;-)

Quote:
3./ It is soooooooo slow to compile (emerge) a new simple (or at least wht seems simple to me) application...is it because it's a fresh install and many libs need to be installed yet? is it because the amd64 is not OK? because I put too much in USE?


I've heard various times that compiling on a 64 bit system takes longer than on a 32 bit system; even on the same machine! I cannot confirm that; however, there are lots of factors that influence compiling; starting with the file system and surely not ending with your compiler options.

Quote:
4./ I have "4 conf files that need to be updated" says emerge..can I know which ones?


Whenever you read that, you ought to run etc-update. (Be careful when it comes to overwriting config files! Use the merging function.)

Hope that helps for starters. :)
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Vrenn
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello blietaer

Im running too amd64 (3500) and about 1GB Ram, it is a good choice.
To yout questions:
1) yes, thats a pity, but I am using the file /etc/portage/package.keywords to get the ~amd keyword on special packages like openoffice-bin (See man portage!).
But that will not make flash work in firefox. Firefox is (if compiled) 64bit, flash (still) 32bit. 32 bit apps can work with the emul-linux* packages (and the 32bit ELF (or something like this) option in your kernel but it is impossible to get 32bit plugins used by a 64bit programm. For this I use opera with the static useflag (defined in /ets/portage/package.use. Its 32bit only (i don't know if firefox-bin is too) and so can use 32bit flash. But it also needs 32bit java->emerge emul-linux-x86-java.
same with 32bit openoffice-bin. I hope this makes things more understandable.

2) Use ufed and run it. Its an editor for the useflags and writes them direct into your make.conf.
want to know if you can emerge amarok? Try it! emerge -pv amarok. -p for pretend, and -v to see which useflags you can define/are defined.
Usually useflag kde means if there is a special kde integation (eg into the kde taskbar- azureus or as a konquerorplugin, or into the startmenu)
It has nothing to do if it depends on kde or not. The only way to find this out is emerge -pv amarok.

3)no, yes, no, no ;)
amd64 is not slow, compared to my P4 1,8
yes, at the beginning it installs many libs which are also needed from other apps you will install later
definitly no, since I installed kde/qt i love to have my amd64...
many useflags (in or out) make a app which fits more for you, so many things you don't need are not compiled-> so its faster but I use ufed which also tells me for whar the useflags are all about. Becare, ufed doesnt write useflags into your make.conf which are already set for default.

4) please see man etc-update!
usually following is save:
files in /etc/init.d can be updated without even looking
files you never changed in /etc can be updated but see following!
files you changed by yourself (etc make.conf, /etc/conf.d/...), or by a programm! (the gnome login manager or the kde kontrollcenter) have to be handled by care
let etc-update display the changes
if there are no personal options/entries in there update it
if there are update it and configure/edit it again or update it not, but then the new app must be able to run with the old configfile


I hope I was able to get you some way into understanding gentoo.
For further questions please ask or have a look at http://gentoo-wiki.com/Main_Page
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from Installing Gentoo to Gentoo on AMD64.
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Vrenn
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@lx0 I am afraid of ACCEPT_KEYWORDS, old memories ;)
But yes, it is an alternative to make for each app an entry in /etc/portage/package.keywords. but my file is still small (4-5 entries), At least ~amd64 will make you not only update from app-1.6 to 1.7, but from 1.6 over 1.6-r1, 1.6-r2, 1.7-rc2, 1.7-rc3 to finally 1.7. So you are always up to date by much more packages at each update.
You can try one, and then change to the other, the power of Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, Vrenn; for someone just starting with Gentoo, it will be the better way to take it step by step (i.e. the /etc/portage/package.unmask way). I should have made that clearer in my first post.

By the way, blietaer, check out the Gentoo handbook, esp. Part 2 and Part 3 to learn more about Portage and its features.
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blietaer
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,
I am just returning to this forum to see these very valuable and great answers.
Thank you so much, I'll implement your trick and should get quickly back to fun...

Many thanks for this high eficiency forum...

(and sorry for posting in the wrong place!!)
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blietaer
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmmh I added it in my /etc/make.conf
Code:


     13 ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~amd64 amd64"

but it still doesn't work:
Quote:
emerge -pv openoffice

These are the packages that I would merge, in order:

Calculating dependencies
!!! All ebuilds that could satisfy "openoffice" have been masked.
!!! One of the following masked packages is required to complete your request:
- app-office/openoffice-2.0.2-r2 (masked by: package.mask, -amd64 keyword)
- app-office/openoffice-2.0.2-r1 (masked by: package.mask, -amd64 keyword)
- app-office/openoffice-2.0.1-r1 (masked by: package.mask, -amd64 keyword)

For more information, see MASKED PACKAGES section in the emerge man page or
refer to the Gentoo Handbook.
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scr*w the source build and emerge the openoffice-bin package. There's nothing to optimize with a compile from source, and installing the binary version saves you hours of compiling that mega-package.
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blietaer
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agreed.

But now when
Code:
emerge --update --deep world
Calculating world dependencies ...done!

!!! Error: the <=x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9 package conflicts with another package.
!!!        both can't be installed on the same system together.
!!!        Please use 'emerge --pretend' to determine blockers.


and blockers is a long list of X-11:
Code:
[blocks B     ] <=x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9 (is blocking x11-proto/kbproto-1.0.2)
[blocks B     ] <=x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9 (is blocking x11-misc/util-macros-1.0.2)
[blocks B     ] <=x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9 (is blocking x11-proto/xextproto-7.0.2)
[blocks B     ] <=x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9 (is blocking x11-proto/xproto-7.0.5)
[blocks B     ] <=x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9 (is blocking x11-proto/xf86bigfontproto-1.1.2)
[blocks B     ] <=x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9 (is blocking x11-proto/inputproto-1.3.2)
[blocks B     ] <=x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9 (is blocking x11-libs/libX11-1.0.1)
[blocks B     ] <=x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9 (is blocking x11-libs/libXau-1.0.1)
[blocks B     ] <=x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9 (is blocking x11-proto/bigreqsproto-1.0.2)
[blocks B     ] <=x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9 (is blocking x11-libs/libXdmcp-1.0.1)
[blocks B     ] <=x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9 (is blocking x11-proto/xcmiscproto-1.1.2)
[blocks B     ] <=x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9 (is blocking x11-libs/xtrans-1.0.0)
etc...
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's something different: You seem to be using the monolithic X right now; your system tries to upgrade to modular.

just unemerge your old X and let emerge -uND world do the rest. Possibly you need also to emerge some extra modules from /usr/portage/x11-drivers (mouse, keyboard and something for your graphics card.)
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blietaer
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

doesn't work:
Code:
arthux benoit # emerge unmerge x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9

--- Couldn't find x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9 to unmerge.

>>> unmerge: No packages selected for removal.

arthux benoit # emerge unmerge xorg-x11-6.9

--- Couldn't find xorg-x11-6.9 to unmerge.

>>> unmerge: No packages selected for removal.

arthux benoit # emerge unmerge x11-base             

--- Couldn't find x11-base to unmerge.
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emerge -C xorg-x11

If you want to specify a version, you need to add a = in front of the package name. But I don't think you have xorg-x11-6.9 installed, it's probably 6.8.
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blietaer wrote:
doesn't work:
Code:
arthux benoit # emerge unmerge x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9

--- Couldn't find x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9 to unmerge.

>>> unmerge: No packages selected for removal.

arthux benoit # emerge unmerge xorg-x11-6.9

--- Couldn't find xorg-x11-6.9 to unmerge.

>>> unmerge: No packages selected for removal.

arthux benoit # emerge unmerge x11-base             

--- Couldn't find x11-base to unmerge.


That's because you can specify packages (for merging, unmerging and other actions) with version numbers only when using a comparison operator.

So either leave the version away (if you have only one version to uninstall), or use the = operator. E.g.

Code:
emerge -C =x11-base/xorg-x11-6.9


or

Code:
emerge -C x11-base/xorg-x11


Both should work; but keep in mind that the latter would unemerge all installed versions of this package, and that is sometimes not desired.
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know most people wouldn't have these problems if they continued to read the rest of the Gentoo Handbook after the rebooting to their new system. Your life would be a whole lot easier if you just read a little extra. You guys seem to of confused him even more now by telling him to add ~amd64 to his /etc/make.conf which is NOT a good idea given that he is not experienced enough with basic Gentoo administration. This can provide a much higher risk of breakages (such as the xorg blocking problems). All he had to do was "emerge openoffice-bin" and his problem was solved.


blietaer, so to sum it up, remove ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="..." from your /etc/make.conf until you are more experienced, or even better are doing a fresh install as a full system update now could lead to breakages. Emerge openoffice-bin which is not masked for amd64. Now if there is a package you wish to install which is masked (which 99% of the time is going to be the same on an x86 arch) learn how to unmask it by reading the man page (man emerge).


In regards to updating your conf files, etc-update is old and depreciated in favour of dispatch-conf. A particularily nice feature of dispatch-conf is the ability to colour code the differences, by changing the "diff" line in /etc/dispatch-conf.conf to:

Code:

diff="colordiff -Nu %s %s | less --no-init --QUIT-AT-EOF"

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blietaer
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for this methodology and general best practices advices.
As I mentioned in my first post, I _do_ read docs, wiki, man and handbooks (which are BTW very very clear and nice, compared to other available distro docs).

I became quite familiar and at ease with the Debian world by reading too, but also by posting in forums.
Actually, I still believe that posting few questions in forums _can_ save you lot of time...
The nice answers I got here are not so confused and are often pointing to part of handbook I should refer to, which I do, instead of cut/pasting blindly lines of command/code proposed here.

And your help on "dispatch-conf" is another great example...
:wink:

Once I'll be more familiar with the gentoo specific admin, I guess I'll go for a fresh install (amd64 or back to i386).

Anyway, I always enjoy people answering my post and I have to admit this forum is probably the first one I see where geek are not trying to (mis)spread their knowledge randomly, starting fight all around. Very professional. (and this is said without 'demagogie').

so..Thank you.
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