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VinzC
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 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: I don't like the idea of a code of conduct |
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Hi all.
I recently came across GWN, which talks about the [new] code of conduct and I don't like that idea. Although I understand the reasons why it was created I think its existence demonstrates it's either too late or useless. Let me explain why.
In my country, the authorities noticed too many car drivers were riding above the speed limit, 50Km/h. They decided... to put the limit down at 30 Km/h! Basically that means: too many people break the law so let's make more laws. The code of conduct makes me think of such a thing.
Rules are broken by people who don't care any rule. Hence making more rules won't change anything, especially if these rules were already implied by common sense and social behaviour. We are facing bad reactions from people, that is an education issue. What would one expect from a code of conduct? Educate people in place of their parents?
It's already too late for those who can read the code of conduct: either some already behave like they don't care any code of conduct (then it's too late for them) or others behave correctly towards others - hence don't need a code in any ways since they have already been educated in the respect towards other people. People who make bashing others an all-day discipline don't care any code of conduct, just like thieves, killers don't care the laws.
Note I'm not comparing bashers with killers or outlaws but only the reasons that make them not care about others.
This is a social issue that will be resolved mostly and essentially by teaching our children how to behave correctly towards others. If a code of conduct is settled up then it also makes no sense if there is no authority to have it applied.
I don't claim for such an authority to be settled up either - don't make me wrong. I'm only saying that, like the law needs a police, a code of conduct needs an authority to have it applied correctly. Such an authority falls way beyond the responsibility and duties of a community. The only kind of "sentence" is on the moderators' side who will kick/ban offenders. It's no different when there were no such code of conduct.
For some people it's already too late and they'll keep ignoring recommendations or any code of conduct, just like they've done until now. All we can do is cope with bad behaviours. More laws or codes won't impact those who already don't care.
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beatryder
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:48 am Post subject: |
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VinzC - I can see your point here, but I think you have missed the point of the code.
Before now there was no (known to me at least) code of conduct of which *all* gentooites (gentooers? gentooinians?) can be held to. The size of the gentoo community really does demand this kind of a document. I agree with your point that making more rules does not always solve the problem. As you said the people who already behave the way the code lays out don't need to worry about it, but more importantly the code now provides moderators and administrators a new tool. Now that this document exists, no one has any excuse.
I believe that this [new] code is not something that will be used as a stick to beat all the users with, but more as a guideline with which the people in charge can justify disciplinary action.
I realize I am not explaining myself very well. And at some level I can see your concern, but after watching the public flamewars that have happened over the last few weeks between the devs and devrel I feel that this was a necessary step and one in the right direction I might add. This code now provides a framework to harbor good relations and to also help those who don't need the code to feel protected.
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VinzC
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: |
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You know I understand the purposes of this code. It's just a pity that it has to exist. It's all common sense and relies upon education. There shouldn't be a code to witness there are infringements to expected good behaviour, that's why I consider it's too bad such a code has to exist.
With its emergence I fear we are adapting ourselves to the fact that there are people who won't listen, won't care. They should adapt instead. By laying everything that's obvious on a piece of paper or a page somewhere, we are going the lawyers' way in that such people will have an opportunity to claim they don't have to behave correctly when it's not written somewhere. We are somehow legalizing wrong behaviours.
Look at the numerous lawsuits for stupid reasons that we hear overseas, for example... Like "it's written nowhere I shouldn't have put the cat in the microwave..."
After all nobody's supposed to ignore the rules - be they hidden or implied. I started to wonder when I saw disclaimers popping here and there. As if people by themselves had an excuse for hypocrisy, as if they had an excuse for not being trustworthy...
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beatryder
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| VinzC wrote: | You know I understand the purposes of this code. It's just a pity that it has to exist. It's all common sense and relies upon education. There shouldn't be a code to witness there are infringements to expected good behavior, that's why I consider it's too bad such a code has to exist.
With its emergence I fear we are adapting ourselves to the fact that there are people who won't listen, won't care. They should adapt instead. By laying everything that's obvious on a piece of paper or a page somewhere, we are going the lawyers' way in that such people will have an opportunity to claim they don't have to behave correctly when it's not written somewhere. We are somehow legalizing wrong behaviors.
Look at the numerous lawsuits for stupid reasons that we hear overseas, for example... Like "it's written nowhere I shouldn't have put the cat in the microwave..."
After all nobody's supposed to ignore the rules - be they hidden or implied. I started to wonder when I saw disclaimers popping here and there. As if people by themselves had an excuse for hypocrisy, as if they had an excuse for not being trustworthy... |
I am not really sure how to reply except to say that I can totally see your point.
I would like to point out to you however that I am "overseas" as you put it and that the media should not be trusted to indicate how things over here work.
Unfortunately one of the downsides to a large group of people gathering (virtually or in real life) is that there has to be some order, and that usually means that there must be documented rules. Just as one person can say "What I did was not in that document" without it another person can say "There is no document defending what you have just disciplined me for." I hope I am being clear on this; "The Code" was an unfortunate but necessary thing.
--Ryan
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Bones McCracker
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:58 am Post subject: |
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That can be addressed with a properly-conceived document.
There should be wording that allows for the correction of any "behavior that reasonable people would expect to be extraordinarily detrimental to the welfare of the distribution and/or community" (or words to that effect). This can only be confirmed by a group. Then, if it's not in the document, but most people agree that it's a no-brainer bad thing, then it's censurable.
This is equivalent to the guidance, "...do unto others as you would have them do unto you." being added to the definitives laid out by the ten commandments. And this is why governments have catch-all laws that prohibit things like "disturbing the peace" and "disorderly conduct". |
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VinzC
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | And this is why governments have catch-all laws that prohibit things like "disturbing the peace" and "disorderly conduct". |
Sure. But in the meantime we all see it doesn't change anything. Minds and behaviours must change. Catch-alls like these will certainly provide legal argumentation for catching trouble-seekers but they won't force minds to change. There is no legal way to force people to change their mind or behaviour, to let them adopt some kind of auto-cencorship. Only education (e.g. parents, schools) will reach that goal. Maybe some "civilian" courses tought in schools?... But again if parents and families are not willing to uphold these principles...
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steveL
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beatryder
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| VinzC wrote: | | Sure. But in the meantime we all see it doesn't change anything. Minds and behaviours must change. Catch-alls like these will certainly provide legal argumentation for catching trouble-seekers but they won't force minds to change. There is no legal way to force people to change their mind or behaviour, to let them adopt some kind of auto-cencorship. Only education (e.g. parents, schools) will reach that goal. Maybe some "civilian" courses tought in schools?... But again if parents and families are not willing to uphold these principles... |
VinzC, something about *how* you said that has finally illustrated your point to me. You are correct, you can't force a persons attitude to change.
| My Dad wrote: | | The only persons actions you truly control are your own. |
So what can we change? We may not be able to change how people think, but we should not be forced to tolerate those who refuse to improve themselves by changing how the communicate.
I am afraid.
I am afraid for gentoo right now. This is the first time in the close to three years of using gentoo that I have started looking at other Distros.
"The Code" is supposed to help, it cannot change how a person thinks, only the individuals themselves can do that. What this code does though is publicly declare "This is what we are willing to tolerate! And expect to be held to this." It gives us reason to remove, or repremand those who need a reminder that their words can cut deeper than any knife.
I know for myself I can be an asshole IRL without trying or intending to do so, it just happens. I would share a story to illustrate this but this is not the place for it.
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VinzC
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| beatryder wrote: | | I am afraid for gentoo right now. |
Don't worry, my friend. Don't worry about Gentoo or anything else. Maybe Gentoo is running into these troubles earlier than other communities - who knows. This is truely a society phenomenon. People are less and less making efforts to control and dominate their dark side. (Right, this is the start of a long slide to another off-topic discussion on society and how I see things.)
Things like this are deemed to happen in a society like ours. You know I'd be largely for adopting someone else's principle: "let the problem solve itself by removing safety labels"; what's left? Sensitive people  . Seriously though...
We are wasting too much energy to fight or protect ourselves from a (small but growing) number people who don't deserve any attention of ours. The reasons why such behaviours happen have their roots in the way our society has evolved.
| Your father wrote: | | The only persons actions you truly control are your own. |
Hmmm... if it's true that you only control yourself entirely, you should not forget the good *influence* you have over people. Interaction is ours. We are all interdependent. Why should we be influenced by bad things, bad people or trouble seekers? We also, with our positive and constructive attitude can impose on others. Too bad/late for those who have forgotten that or ignore that but we have some valuable influence if we are valuable persons towards our relatives, family, colleagues, children, whomever we know or might know.
You don't need absolute control to influence people or things. (If we could not have any weight in anybody else's decision then I'm afraid we'd be much useless  . ) And that's the idea I'll carry and transmit to my children. Our future is what we make it: through our dearest children. Everyone has the (good) power to advise, drive or influence others, be it from our own behaviour or by discussing like we're doing right now.
To us not to miss the opportunity that we have to change the future maybe... We have what we deserve: if we don't do anything, we (or our children) will get a mess (takes me to a tour to a comparison between entropy and human's natural tendency ) . If we make some efforts and do our best in preparing the future for our children, it's a good thing.
My whole point? Don't care for those who don't hear nor listen. Sooner or later they'll fail or fall. Of course a code of conduct - or enforced law - is a temporary fix. But it should remain temporary, until minds have evolved and people have come to a nicer "state". Do you see what I mean?
| beatryder wrote: | | VinzC, something about *how* you said that has finally illustrated your point to me. You are correct, you can't force a persons attitude to change. |
Let's have a virtual but friendly handshaking then .
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beatryder
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| VinzC wrote: |
Let's have a virtual but friendly handshaking then . |
Agreed!
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Bones McCracker
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: |
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It would be nice if we didn't need to inform/educate people (to change people's minds, to alter their behavior).
However, a code does help with this. It helps by serving as a guideline to those who would otherwise not understand what behavior is appropriate. |
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VinzC
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | It would be nice if we didn't need to inform/educate people (to change people's minds, to alter their behavior).
However, a code does help with this. It helps by serving as a guideline to those who would otherwise not understand what behavior is appropriate. |
I strongly disagree with this (unless I didn't understand your point, which is always possible).
A code doesn't help anything; it just provides kindof excuses or explanations to a) those who don't bother reading for being fired [e.g. from the forums] and b) to those who fire [e.g. from the forums] the lazy people who don't bother reading the rules. It doesn't prevent flamewars from happening. It'll just prevent the kicked/banned from having a reason to flame the mods *after* being banned. Even the I still have a doubt.
Someone who doesn't want to listen won't listen, whatever you do whatever you say, whatever you write. The code [of conduct] is a sign something is going wrong, not a solution.
There are things that should not be written. And I consider there is a frontier between what should be and what should not be written down: when you start to set laws about behaviours it's a sign your society is sliding in the wrong direction. You should not be required to write laws (or codes) about how people should behave.
For example, I chose to obey or not to. I chose to follow the rules or not. It's a choice I make with my own conscience/dignity/moral. The consequences are completely different in both cases but there should not be anything written down to tell me what choice I should make - and especially why I should make these choices. Call it freedom, common sense, wisdom or whatever you like.
If you start telling people what choices they have to make (I mean socially), like a code somehow does (by explaining what is good and what is bad, more or less), you quickly realize there is something going wrong with human relationships. There is a slight difference between telling people they will be sent to jail if they kill someone and telling them they will be banned if they aren't polite.
In the first case you are speaking about physical acts and risks. In the second case you are speaking about moral injuries. Moral should never be described nor legislated. It's about everyone's own conscience. Note both rely upon education: a good education should produce well-educated people, i.e. people who will most probably never kill nor insult anyone. There's a difference between taking someone's life and bashing someone else's dignity.
What does a code help? Whom does the code help?
Does it help people with bad behaviours? I doubt. As I said earlier, someone who won't listen nor hear nor accept to follow the rules (be they written or implied) will most probably keep going on that way. Let's consider him (or her) lost; too late for him or her.
Does it help moderators/devs? From being flamed for banning trouble seekers? Certainly not - see above. From being flamed at all? I don't think so: again, see above.
Does it prevent flame wars at all then? The answer is obvious if you follow my point.
Now let's think it the other way round and admit a code of conduct is needed. Then let's take an example:
| The Big Code Of Conduct wrote: | Rule 1. You shall not insult others
Rule 2. You shall reply using a friendly wording
Rule 3. You shall accept you can be wrong sometimes
Rule 4. You shall not blame anybody who tells you that you are wrong
...
Rule n. You should wash your hands when leaving the lavatories |
Such rules are so obvious to well-educated people but let's group them with other similar (true) ones:
| The Big Code of Safety wrote: | Rule 2000. You should remove the toy from the plastic bag before you give it to your children
Rule 2001. You should wear insulated gloves when working with electrified lines
Rule 2002. You should power off your computer before replacing the memory modules
Rule 2003. Never leave underage children alone
... |
Ok, I admit some of these are rules that have nothing to do with education but they are so obviously obvious... Nevertheless I have seen or read them (or something similar) at least once, which means they were probably essential somehow.
Now tell me: can you imagine that the ones whom these rules are targetting are the future of Mankind?...
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Bones McCracker
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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You make good points that I agree with.
However, I don't really see you saying that it will have a negative effect (only that it won't solve the problem). I think having people read and agree to something like this when they join the community will have at least some small positive effect. Provided it's not ridiculous (i.e., in excruciating detail like "you must respond politely"), it can express the general intent that people behave in a respectful manner toward each other.
In the absence of "big ideas" that fix the problems, I say any "little idea" like this is welcome. Do you have a big idea about how to rectify the situation? I personally haven't come up with one yet. |
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VinzC
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | In the absence of "big ideas" that fix the problems, I say any "little idea" like this is welcome. Do you have a big idea about how to rectify the situation? I personally haven't come up with one yet. |
The idea is simple: educate our children towards that goal.
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Corona688
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| VinzC wrote: | | The idea is simple: educate our children towards that goal. |
Unless you mean Gentoo sponsoring a daycare, how about something that'll help us more directly? They once found an ancient babylonian clay tablet lamenting on the rudeness of youth and the collapse of society; this is nothing new, it's something we need to deal with.
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VinzC
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| VinzC wrote: | | The idea is simple: educate our children towards that goal. |
| Corona688 wrote: | | Unless you mean Gentoo sponsoring a daycare, how about something that'll help us more directly? They once found an ancient babylonian clay tablet lamenting on the rudeness of youth and the collapse of society; this is nothing new, it's something we need to deal with. |
It all depends on whether you prefer immediate or long term solutions. I prefer long term solutions otherwise you might be forced to always find immediate solutions.
But you know, I'm puzzled. What's really wrong with these people? Can't admins simply delete messages proved offending? If criticism comes from people who don't even deserve the least attention, why bother keep their comments if they hurt?
Another example, moderated newsgroups require each message to be acknowledged by a moderator to be published. Offending content is dropped. Things don't have to be that way, it's just an example.
As a code of conduct, why not just adding: "Offending speaches that are subject to break the quietness of discussions will be deleted." Full stop. IMHO a code is meant against people who already don't read it or don't care. So why bother?
If one is able to elaborate a code of conduct she's able to determine what content is offending and which is not. Hence able to delete offending posts.
This is why I advise ignoring offending people. They get angry, start smashing everything around them, start bashing everybody? Ok, just ignore them. If you start playing their game and set rule - which they don't care anyways - you're wasting your energy and will only gain frustration against people who break the rules.
You know it's said everywhere nobody's supposed to ignore the law - even if it's written in no obvious place. But it's something everybody's told at least once in his life. So the code would only repeat what's already there - common sense, politeness aso.
You don't need a code of conduct if you know already you're on the right side, do you? Offending content just needs to be erased. At once. That's the only required, immediate sentence. And maybe some of these offenders will calm down and think, coming back when they are prone to discuss in a more constructive manner.
That's my point... if you want an immediate solution. Don't spend your time raising papers with rules, codes and so on. They just don't care anyway; but you'll be right anyways, whatever you do because *you* are a sensitive person. So even if you take a drastic measure to, gently, remove offending content, there's no need to discuss since you are the authority.
That's the role of moderators. They don't need to justify their decisions.
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Corona688
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| VinzC wrote: | | But you know, I'm puzzled. What's really wrong with these people? Can't admins simply delete messages proved offending? |
You're assuming the admins are always nice people. This is true right now, but it's not wise to assume it'll always be. | Quote: | | This is why I advise ignoring offending people. They get angry, start smashing everything around them, start bashing everybody? Ok, just ignore them. If you start playing their game and set rule - which they don't care anyways - you're wasting your energy and will only gain frustration against people who break the rules. |
Ignoring only works unless everyone does it. Otherwise, ignoring it just plain cuts you out of the conversation whole. | Quote: | That's my point... if you want an immediate solution. Don't spend your time raising papers with rules, codes and so on. They just don't care anyway; but you'll be right anyways, whatever you do because *you* are a sensitive person. So even if you take a drastic measure to, gently, remove offending content, there's no need to discuss since you are the authority.
That's the role of moderators. They don't need to justify their decisions. |
How happy would you be when they started removing your posts wholesale? Deleting posts is a pretty drastic measure.
Granted, I've seen some posts that would qualify. Just not many.
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VinzC
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Corona688 wrote: | | You're assuming the admins are always nice people. This is true right now,... |
Uh, sure, I hope so ...
| Corona688 wrote: | | ... but it's not wise to assume it'll always be. |
Hmmm... then will it make sense to ever post again when it comes true? That would be too bad but I trust admins to be [s]elected in a trustworthy fashion.
| Corona688 wrote: | | Ignoring only works unless everyone does it. |
That's also so much true. Let me keep thinking it's yet easier for brave people to stay clear of troubles than disturbing people to start understanding what's good and what's bad...
| VinzC wrote: | That's my point... if you want an immediate solution. Don't spend your time raising papers with rules, codes and so on. They just don't care anyway; but you'll be right anyways, whatever you do because *you* are a sensitive person. So even if you take a drastic measure to, gently, remove offending content, there's no need to discuss since you are the authority.
That's the role of moderators. They don't need to justify their decisions. |
| Corona688 wrote: | How happy would you be when they started removing your posts wholesale? Deleting posts is a pretty drastic measure.
Granted, I've seen some posts that would qualify. Just not many. |
Out of this context I would find it offending but this is also assuming either admins go mad or I turn to the dark side. As long as forum admins keep as cool as they still are, they just need to remind offenders; policemen generally warn before they shoot .
And as you said, there are not so many posts that deserve pure deletion. Most of the time people start to calm down when they're threatened with a hard "sentence". Being "erased" must probably be very frustrating for even a troublemaker (man, calm down or I'll delete your post).
IRC has kick/ban facilities. Forums already have ban facility. Let's assume deleting is kicking. IHMO that kind of holy menace (lol) would already decrease troubles by at least 50% if not more...
Peace.
And love...
No, I don't smoke weed or anything 
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Corona688
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| VinzC wrote: | | And as you said, there are not so many posts that deserve pure deletion. Most of the time people start to calm down when they're threatened with a hard "sentence". Being "erased" must probably be very frustrating for even a troublemaker (man, calm down or I'll delete your post). |
Rational people calm down when threatened with deletion/etc. If it gets to the point where you're actually forced to do so, all bets are off. I've encountered serial trolls that operate with the goal of flaming until they get banned; anyone and anyplace that doesn't automatically agree with them is, in their mind, deluded; they just love the feeling of validation they get from being banned for "posting the truth". Every forum they get banned from is another feather in their hat, and let me tell you, that's one pimped out hat by now.
The problem with your philosophy is that assholes do exist.
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VinzC
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| VinzC wrote: | | And as you said, there are not so many posts that deserve pure deletion. Most of the time people start to calm down when they're threatened with a hard "sentence". Being "erased" must probably be very frustrating for even a troublemaker (man, calm down or I'll delete your post). |
| Corona688 wrote: | | Rational people calm down when threatened with deletion/etc. |
I would say rational people don't even bother trolling or whatever. Oh, yes they might - assuming *cough* I'm a rational man *cough* and yet it happened to me... Well, but not only the rational ones do calm down - don't be too sceptic. Anyways this is not quite the point, I agree, i.e. enumerate how many would and how many would not.
| Corona688 wrote: | | If it gets to the point where you're actually forced to do so, all bets are off. I've encountered serial trolls that operate with the goal of flaming until they get banned; |
So you're basically illustrating my point, which is against people like that a code of conduct would be useless. If I've understood, of course.
| Corona688 wrote: | | The problem with your philosophy is that assholes do exist. |
Hmmm... I wouldn't be that sharp  ... Sure assholes do exist but my philosophy doesn't mean they would ever disappear. No, of course.
It instead tends to cope with them as much as common sense can bear - or at least sanction them if they need to. The trick is not to have too many of them otherwise it'd become quite a mess.
There's nothing you can do to avoid people acting like very idiots if they really want to. So even a code of conduct wouldn't give the expected results with these ones. And these are the ones that are the most offending since a) they do offend and b) despite warnings they continue, making it hopeless to stop them.
The least you can do is hope they will learn someday. If they do, so be it and you've deserved your lot of peace. If they don't either fire them or punish them in the hope that the punishment will make them take the opportunity to learn.
That's also what I (hope I have) illustrated above in my previous posts: education is the only means to actually *prevent* such people from raising all over the place. For those who already are (bastards aso) it's too late and no rule will make them better nor make them understand the reasons why they get banned, fired, aso.
It's no utopy in the sense that there will always be assholes. But they should remain the exception and not the general rule.
And exceptions are generally ignored. Keep an eye on them maybe but mostly ignore them. It's not that I want to eradicate assholes. I simply want to stay clear of them (or keep them away from me) and avoid wasting precious energy, which could be invested in doing something more interesting and constructive.
(Goodness! I really love discussions like this )
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| VinzC wrote: | | Corona688 wrote: | | Rational people calm down when threatened with deletion/etc. |
I would say rational people don't even bother trolling or whatever. Oh, yes they might - assuming *cough* I'm a rational man *cough* and yet it happened to me... Well, but not only the rational ones do calm down - don't be too sceptic. Anyways this is not quite the point, I agree, i.e. enumerate how many would and how many would not. |
Rational people do get drawn into flamewars, it happens all the time.
| Quote: | | Corona688 wrote: | | If it gets to the point where you're actually forced to do so, all bets are off. I've encountered serial trolls that operate with the goal of flaming until they get banned; |
So you're basically illustrating my point, which is against people like that a code of conduct would be useless. If I've understood, of course. |
No it would be useful, since there are defined rules which you can refer to and say: "You definitely crossed that line," when you ban them.
| Quote: | Sure assholes do exist but my philosophy doesn't mean they would ever disappear. No, of course.
It instead tends to cope with them as much as common sense can bear - or at least sanction them if they need to. The trick is not to have too many of them otherwise it'd become quite a mess. |
It's easier to sanction, ie ban, when you have defined rules. Without agreed baselines for acceptable behaviour, on what grounds do you sanction? Whatever they are, they will be open to the charge of having been made up on the spot.
| Quote: | | There's nothing you can do to avoid people acting like very idiots if they really want to. So even a code of conduct wouldn't give the expected results with these ones. And these are the ones that are the most offending since a) they do offend and b) despite warnings they continue, making it hopeless to stop them. |
It's not hopeless: if people persist in behaving offensively, you ban them (temporarily) on the grounds that they have broken the rules on acceptable behaviour. If they are serial offenders, and not in fact reacting to other people trolling (when you tell them to stop feeding the trolls) then they get a longer, or even a permanent ban.
In each case, imo it's important to discuss the situation with the person first, which doesn't happen much admittedly, since it may actually be indicative of wider problems; there may well be a culture of nastiness which the offender is just trying to fit in with. In that case, it's important to be able to look at everyone's behaviour and not just pick on the new guy, since your project is heading the wrong way, and you should in fact be sounding alarm bells.
| Quote: | | That's also what I (hope I have) illustrated above in my previous posts: education is the only means to actually *prevent* such people from raising all over the place. For those who already are (bastards aso) it's too late and no rule will make them better nor make them understand the reasons why they get banned, fired, aso. |
So you want to ban people, with no agreed upon rules as to when they can be banned? Sounds like a nightmare to me; ground-rules are important, and important to establish when people start to get involved, not later on, or it's harder for people to learn them.
| Quote: | | And exceptions are generally ignored. Keep an eye on them maybe but mostly ignore them. It's not that I want to eradicate assholes. I simply want to stay clear of them (or keep them away from me) and avoid wasting precious energy, which could be invested in doing something more interesting and constructive. |
Yeah that's why eventually you have to ban people (as you yourself said.) Doing so without an established consensus on acceptable behaviour is difficult, and the agreed set of rules is easier to enforce when people have accepted it at the beginning. That's the way to educate people; it's much harder when they've got into bad habits, because they see others behaving nastily, and everyone's just trying to pretend it isn't happening. That sends the wrong signal.
Clashes of personality or views will always happen. If someone can gently point out that perhaps the passionate stance someone is taking could be misunderstood, that helps. If it persists, that same moderator can point to an agreed set of guidelines and say: please, be careful you're overstepping the mark. For the vast majority of people that's enough, and they restrain their behaviour. (OFC that doesn't happen when devs themselves are the ones behaving badly, and no-one has the guts to tell them so; then everyone else thinks it must be acceptable, even the norm.)
I don't see how moderation can be done without agreed rules. It's still a matter of moderator judgement, since every case is different, and it may just be a question of cultural difference. BTW there is no moderation of mailing-lists atm, only of the forums and irc, and they seem to be ok since the new gentoo-project m-l got started, for all posts not strictly related to technical aspects of development. Maybe that proves your point, or maybe as NeddySeagoon said, it's just because the kids are away from school/university |
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VinzC
Watchman
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 5098
Location: Dark side of the mood
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | So you want to ban people, with no agreed upon rules as to when they can be banned? Sounds like a nightmare to me; ground-rules are important, and important to establish when people start to get involved, not later on, or it's harder for people to learn them.
[...] |
But... ground rules are *already* and have *always* been there! That was my whole point... Be it common sense, netiquette or whatever. I'm not against writing rules but against writing rules when it's already implied and written.
Ok, let's recap'.
Here's an excerpt of netiquette as linked to from the forum
| http://www.albion.com/netiquette/corerules.html wrote: | * Rule 1: Remember the Human
* Rule 2: Adhere to the same standards of behavior online that you follow in real life
* Rule 3: Know where you are in cyberspace
* Rule 4: Respect other people's time and bandwidth
* Rule 5: Make yourself look good online
* Rule 6: Share expert knowledge
* Rule 7: Help keep flame wars under control
* Rule 8: Respect other people's privacy
* Rule 9: Don't abuse your power
* Rule 10: Be forgiving of other people's mistakes |
And here's what topic 525 says a little bit after:
| https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-525.html wrote: | 7. Thank those who help you [...]
8. No bashing [snipped]
9. Keep on topic [snipped]
10.No personal attacks [snipped]
13. Ask Questions The Smart Way [snipped] |
And here's the code of conduct:
| http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml wrote: | Acceptable behaviour:
- Be courteous. [snipped]
- Give accurate information in the spirit of being helpful. [snipped]
- Respectfully disagree with or challenge other members. [snipped]
- Using the correct forum for your post [snipped]
- Admit the possibility of fault and respect different point of views. [snipped]
- If you screw up, take responsibility for your actions. [snipped]
Unacceptable behaviour:
- Flaming and trolling. [snipped]
- Posting/participating only to incite drama or negativity. [snipped]
- Being judgmental, mean-spirited or insulting. [snipped]
- Constantly purveying misinformation. [snipped]
|
Sounds like repetition, doesn't it?...
It looks like the netiquette was not well followed, was it? So probably wrote the guide. And the guide wasn't felt like being well followed, was it? So the code of conduct was born. But was in fact already repeating what previous rules and guidelines said in a different manner.
One could have written in the forum guidelines, in a 48pt font: READ THIS, it would have had no better effect, I think...
What I'm saying (and repeating) is: you can write (and repeat) as many rules as you want, in as many ways as you want - (which is what the CoC does in fact)- there were already a set of rules in the first place: common sense, politeness, things that well-educated people follow carefully;
- repeating makes no sense to people who don't *want* to listen;
- repeating makes no sense to people whose (lack of) education still prevents them from realizing they're on the wrong side;
- repeating endlessly won't prevent from breaking what the rules are trying to preserve if there are people who want to put trouble despite warnings, rules aso.
And as I already said, there's nothing in these rules but a verbal expression of what takes a whole lot of years of education to be printed in everybody's mind.
These (repeated) rules are implicitly adopted, accepted and followed by those who will be likely to read them, i.e. well educated people; hence they don't need them: they already apply them. Ok, most of the time - does it really matter?
These (repeated) rules will be ignored by the ones whom they target - but hey, they ignored or rejected them in the first place so why should they care once more? Again, these rules are useless to them...
<digression>You can setup any number of rules, if there's no sensible authority to uphold these rules, all bets are off (to quote somebody else's expression). All we need is a sensible authority. And that sensible authority didn't need any more rules for doing its job.</digression>
The code of conduct is just another "repeat-it". These common-sense rules are transgressed by people who lack the basics of education. So how can anybody hope writing a code of conduct will have the slightest effect on them since it takes years of educating and growing children to have these printed in their mind and adopted?
| steveL wrote: | | In each case, imo it's important to discuss the situation with the person first |
Absolutely.
Besides, rules on a piece of paper or a web page won't be a substitute to education; all they do is enumerate and remind principles of education. What is supposed to happen with these rules? Do we expect more people will read them? Do we just need to setup rules and let go?
It's much more efficient to *talk* to people when they're trespassing the warning lines than setting rules or assuming they have read the guides. That is why I suggested kick/ban/delete *with* a comment - hey, that's the way we grow up our children, isn't it? So why on earth should it be different here? Now if you fear that mods also turn bad... Man, if that's the case, I'd prefer not to post ever again ...
| steveL wrote: | | I don't see how moderation can be done without agreed rules. |
But rules have always existed even before the CoC. And those whom these rules target are already rejecting any consensus!... They are already in a not-for-me mode... So why bother? Ban and explain and that's it... Don't waste your time writing again and again something that will be ignored anyway by those whom you're writing against ...
It's just like I wrote in a previous post: "people don't read the guide lines, so let's write more guide lines to make sure that they read them..."
That just doesn't make sense and is absolutely useless. And that is my point.
We don't need a[nother] code of conduct. Because there were already many of them, impled and written. Do courtesy and politeness need to be explained in long sentences to be agreed? Or isn't pronouncing them [as the reason for being banned] just enough?
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desultory
Bodhisattva
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 9410
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| VinzC wrote: | | It looks like the netiquette was not well followed, was it? So probably wrote the guide. And the guide wasn't felt like being well followed, was it? So the code of conduct was born. But was in fact already repeating what previous rules and guidelines said in a different manner. |
The major fault in that logic is the failure to consider scope. The code of conduct is supposed to be the set of guidelines for the behavior of Gentoo staff members, of all sorts, across all media of interaction in their capacity as Gentoo staff members, whereas the forum guidelines apply only to the forums.
In addition, the forum guidelines are not limited to etiquette rules, and provide explicit documentation of the rules of behavior here. |
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VinzC
Watchman
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 5098
Location: Dark side of the mood
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| VinzC wrote: | | It looks like the netiquette was not well followed, was it? So probably wrote the guide. And the guide wasn't felt like being well followed, was it? So the code of conduct was born. But was in fact already repeating what previous rules and guidelines said in a different manner. |
| desultory wrote: | The major fault in that logic is the failure to consider scope. The code of conduct is supposed to be the set of guidelines for the behavior of Gentoo staff members, of all sorts, across all media of interaction in their capacity as Gentoo staff members, whereas the forum guidelines apply only to the forums.
In addition, the forum guidelines are not limited to etiquette rules, and provide explicit documentation of the rules of behavior here. |
There wasn't any intention for any logic in that quote, in fact. I tried to illustrate a possible evolution rather than the scope, that's true.
However my logic - though I wrote only about forum attendees - applies to any individual in a society. I'm making an argumentation upon rules and behaviours.
The rules that are laid down tend to define (or remind) a common set of (good) attitudes. But attitudes are the result of education, as I claimed many times - you might have noticed, haven't you?
I just can't see the benefit of yet another set of rules - scope apart - when behavioral or educational "gaps" are the real problem.
Note I might still have not understood the main reason; is it about the staff members, especially those who have mod/admin powers? Is it about the devs (the ones who are known to flame)? Is it about mailing lists and the fact that there's no kick/ban facilities?
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desultory
Bodhisattva
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 9410
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| VinzC wrote: | | Note I might still have not understood the main reason; is it about the staff members, especially those who have mod/admin powers? |
It is a set of guidelines for all staff members, not just those who are moderators. It is also a set of guidelines for any users communicating via Gentoo infrastructure, although there is no longer any group specifically empowered and mandated to enforce theses guidelines for users outside of the forums and IRC.
| VinzC wrote: | | Is it about the devs (the ones who are known to flame)? |
Developers are staff members.
| VinzC wrote: | | Is it about mailing lists and the fact that there's no kick/ban facilities? |
Such capabilities are available, they are not used due largely to the ease with which they can be circumvented. |
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