Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
FEATURES="candy"
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Should we remove FEATURES="candy"
yes
58%
 58%  [ 255 ]
no
41%
 41%  [ 183 ]
Total Votes : 438

Author Message
Paapaa
l33t
l33t


Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 955
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

100% useless feature, I wouldn't mind removing it. I say: aim for simplicity.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bob P
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 20 Oct 2004
Posts: 3355
Location: Jackass! Development Labs

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

candy has always been an undocumented feature. the only people who are even aware of it are the people who have actually examined the portage source code. it should come as no surprise, then, to observe that the vast majority of people responding to this poll aren't aware that the feature exists and aren't familiar with what it does. moreover, it should come as no surprise that people who have been living in blissful ignorance won't miss anything that they never knew existed. in this context it might be most meaningful to sort the responses to this poll, group them into pools of people who knew that the feature existed and those that didn't, and analyze the pools of responses separately. :idea:

on the one hand there's the "efficient code" argument. if the developer is basing his opinion on the efficient code argument, this thread is really quite meaningless, as the answer to the question was known before the question was asked.

from a user's CPU utilization perspective, "candy" doesn't cost any significant amount of CPU overhead for the people who aren't using it. candy amounts to a block of code that is executed if and only if the user triggers its execution by implementing the features statement. realistically speaking, candy only costs you in CPU utilization if you intentionally turn the feature on.

in the big scheme of things, i think that its important to remember that undocumented features like candy amount to pearls that have been buried in the source code to reward people who bother to read it. somebody who had worked on portage before spent alot of time working on that code. leaving it in for posterity is an honor to them in acknowledgement of what they've done for Gentoo, and it doesn't cost anything. OTOH, removing it is the honorary equivalent of a sharp stick.

my recommendation would be to give users choice, and to leave it in. but then my recommendation would also have been not to document a feature that had been intentionally undocumented in the first place.
_________________
.
Stage 1/3 | Jackass! | Rockhopper! | Thanks | Google Sucks
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
loki99
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
candy has always been an undocumented feature. the only people who are even aware of it are the people who have actually examined the portage source code.


Not quite true!

I never read the portage sources and know about it since it has been implemented.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cinder6
l33t
l33t


Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 767
Location: California

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't even read it when it's enabled (I only know it says "Thank you for using Gentoo" by looking for it), but I think it's kinda fun to have Easter eggs like this, so I say keep it (unless, of course, as others have said, it makes the code unmanageable).
_________________
Knowledge is power.
Power corrupts.
Study hard.
Be evil.

Ugly Overload
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ali3nx
l33t
l33t


Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 722
Location: Winnipeg, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

definitely a keeper in my opinion. I've been using candy in features for awile now and try to have it enabled whenever possible. Thanks carpaski!
_________________
Compiling Gentoo since version 1.4
Thousands of Gentoo Installs Completed
Emerged on every continent but Antarctica
Compile long and Prosper!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
syouth
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 275

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Replace "candy" with "offensive" to show ASCII porn and things like that...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
loki99
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cinder6 wrote:
I can't even read it when it's enabled (I only know it says "Thank you for using Gentoo" by looking for it), but I think it's kinda fun to have Easter eggs like this, so I say keep it (unless, of course, as others have said, it makes the code unmanageable).


One of the lines I remember seeing one time said something like this:

Quote:
If you can read this, your computer is too slow!


:lol:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
at240
l33t
l33t


Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loki99 wrote:
One of the lines I remember seeing one time said something like this:

Quote:
If you can read this, your computer is too slow!



:lol: :lol:

Enjoyed reading this thread---had no idea that this feature even existed...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Stolz
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 19 Oct 2003
Posts: 3028
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use it but if it makes code easier to mantain, get rid of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Omega21
l33t
l33t


Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 788
Location: Canada (brrr. Its cold up here)

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanna try it now.... How do you activate it? (If its not too late. Ive seen some GNOME-like ideals in the last few months with Gentoo... "If its a feature, remove it")

Although if it makes the developer's lifes that much easier, who am I to stand in your way? :D
_________________
iMac G4 1GHz :: q6600 //2x 500GB//2GB RAM//8600GT//Gentoo :: MacBook Pro//2.53GHz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jedsen
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 276
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
candy has always been an undocumented feature. the only people who are even aware of it are the people who have actually examined the portage source code. it should come as no surprise, then, to observe that the vast majority of people responding to this poll aren't aware that the feature exists and aren't familiar with what it does. moreover, it should come as no surprise that people who have been living in blissful ignorance won't miss anything that they never knew existed. in this context it might be most meaningful to sort the responses to this poll, group them into pools of people who knew that the feature existed and those that didn't, and analyze the pools of responses separately. :idea:

on the one hand there's the "efficient code" argument. if the developer is basing his opinion on the efficient code argument, this thread is really quite meaningless, as the answer to the question was known before the question was asked.

from a user's CPU utilization perspective, "candy" doesn't cost any significant amount of CPU overhead for the people who aren't using it. candy amounts to a block of code that is executed if and only if the user triggers its execution by implementing the features statement. realistically speaking, candy only costs you in CPU utilization if you intentionally turn the feature on.

in the big scheme of things, i think that its important to remember that undocumented features like candy amount to pearls that have been buried in the source code to reward people who bother to read it. somebody who had worked on portage before spent alot of time working on that code. leaving it in for posterity is an honor to them in acknowledgement of what they've done for Gentoo, and it doesn't cost anything. OTOH, removing it is the honorary equivalent of a sharp stick.

my recommendation would be to give users choice, and to leave it in. but then my recommendation would also have been not to document a feature that had been intentionally undocumented in the first place.


Again, Bob P, thank you for that steaming load of useless crap.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
goom
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 96
Location: Dortmund, Germany

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imho it is completely unneccesary. Got it running on a server here, but that was only some testing and nothing serial. As you said, a silly feature :)
_________________
http://www.dispatchmusic.com
- Listen to Dispatch - smile - be happy -

http://www.maggimarkus.de
- my (german) page
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John R. Graham
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10587
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found both of those undocumented features by studying Portage's Python source code. I have enjoyed each of these little discoveries over the years. Sometimes even the comments are hilarious. Once while working late into the night to find the root cause of a customer-reported anomaly, I found a quote that one of my employees had left behind years before for someone to find:
Code:
/*
**  "Wanting every habitable planet to be inhabited is like wanting
**   everybody to get athlete's foot."
**  -- Kurt Vonnegut
*/
I burst out laughing, thinking that it must've been a similarly late night that spawned this little missive. It still makes me smile, just thinking about it.

So, by all means, leave them in. I've seen the code: there're no credible performance or maintainability argument to be made here. And they're fun!

- John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
brims
Guru
Guru


Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 492
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

john_r_graham wrote:
So, by all means, leave them in. I've seen the code: there're no credible performance or maintainability argument to be made here. And they're fun!

- John


Things like that can be amusing like in one kernel when there was a printer problem it would say "lp0 on fire" or something. But the original poster, who is a dev, states that the code is fairly long. Though antarus has few posts here on the forums, he must know how to code and have some idea of what he is doing otherwise the other developers wouldn't let him be a developer.

If the code is long and no one uses it, well then there is no need to keep it unless a better solution could be devised. One poster suggested modularizing it which would work. But then you get back to the topic of, is anyone even using it and is it worth the time to actually modularize it.

To me it looks like everyone that's bothering to post on this thread recommends getting rid of the feature, and those who don't post either don't care or see that their point of view is well covered so they don't post.
_________________
Adopt an Unanswered Post
Report violations, duplicates, misplaced, etc
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sponge
n00b
n00b


Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brims wrote:
But the original poster, who is a dev, states that the code is fairly long.
Err... how long? Searching /usr/bin/emerge only finds one instance of candy, at line 75, where it's checked for in the feature list. Under that conditional, there's an assignment that points to a list at line 24. Then, there's an assignment that points to a function at line 54, which is 8 lines long. The conditional is 3 lines long, and while the list is 18 lines long, it's hardly difficult code. All in all, 29 lines. That doesn't seem like much, even in python.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andrewd18
Guru
Guru


Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 364
Location: Wisconsin, USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q-collective wrote:
Didn't knew it existed, but now I do I'm not really interested either.
Kick it.

++
_________________
Keep Your Toolchain Stable! - emwrap.sh

There's no place like ::1
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ferdinando
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 25 Nov 2003
Posts: 1027
Location: Gaeta (LT) - Italy

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it should be kept, maybe in a separate module only installed with a particular use flag. I've been using it for a long time now, I just like it even though I can't read the sentence (I went in the source code to read them - the spinner_msgs var, at the beginning); it's not funny anymore, but it's original.

Bye
_________________
La risposta, non la devi cercare fuori, la devi cercare dentro di te: e però è SBAGLIATA!
-- Corrado Guzzanti, "Pippo Chennedy Show", 1997
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
brims
Guru
Guru


Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 492
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sponge wrote:
Err... how long? Searching /usr/bin/emerge only finds one instance of candy, at line 75, where it's checked for in the feature list. Under that conditional, there's an assignment that points to a list at line 24. Then, there's an assignment that points to a function at line 54, which is 8 lines long. The conditional is 3 lines long, and while the list is 18 lines long, it's hardly difficult code. All in all, 29 lines. That doesn't seem like much, even in python.


Ok, then maybe antarus can clarify that point. But again, if it isn't used, is it really needed?
_________________
Adopt an Unanswered Post
Report violations, duplicates, misplaced, etc
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
no idea
n00b
n00b


Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 43
Location: Zagreb

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jedsen wrote:
Again, Bob P, thank you for that steaming load of useless crap.

Hey, he is 100% right.

It is an easter egg, a reward for those who actually read the emerge code.

And as he said, it should stay in honor of those people who really did something for gentoo. ;)

What do you gain by throwing it out?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
no idea
n00b
n00b


Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 43
Location: Zagreb

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brims wrote:
Ok, then maybe antarus can clarify that point. But again, if it isn't used, is it really needed?

I don't use emerge --deep, so let's throw that out as well, shall we? :roll:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
brims
Guru
Guru


Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 492
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no idea wrote:
brims wrote:
Ok, then maybe antarus can clarify that point. But again, if it isn't used, is it really needed?

I don't use emerge --deep, so let's throw that out as well, shall we? :roll:


Good job trolling. You don't use --deep, other people do. As the thread shows, very few use FEATURES="candy".
_________________
Adopt an Unanswered Post
Report violations, duplicates, misplaced, etc
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ferdinando
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 25 Nov 2003
Posts: 1027
Location: Gaeta (LT) - Italy

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brims wrote:
As the thread shows, very few use FEATURES="candy".

I don't think so; yes, there were some who didn't even know of that, but believe me, I've read people on these forums who didn't even know of cflags. It wasn't documented in the installing manual nor in any man page I know of, but it was mentioned in a GWN, so a lot of people read about it, and I think that a lot of people likes some candy here and there: ok, it's not very pretty, but I know many people who use it.

Bye
_________________
La risposta, non la devi cercare fuori, la devi cercare dentro di te: e però è SBAGLIATA!
-- Corrado Guzzanti, "Pippo Chennedy Show", 1997
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
brims
Guru
Guru


Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 492
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ferdinando wrote:
brims wrote:
As the thread shows, very few use FEATURES="candy".

I don't think so; yes, there were some who didn't even know of that, but believe me, I've read people on these forums who didn't even know of cflags. It wasn't documented in the installing manual nor in any man page I know of, but it was mentioned in a GWN, so a lot of people read about it, and I think that a lot of people likes some candy here and there: ok, it's not very pretty, but I know many people who use it.

Bye


Ok, then you explain all the posts "interesting, but don't use it" or "not very useful" or any post similar to these examples. A couple of posts say "never knew it existed", for the most part the tone is to get rid of it.

EDIT: As someone brought up, on a semi fast machine, you can't even read the sentences. On my 356MHz machine I'd be able to read it, but I don't use it. On my 2 desktops, I'd never be able to read it, the normal spinner gets spinning so fast it looks like a propeller spinning, can't see the different characters.

EDIT: Also if you know so many people that use the feature, why aren't they on this thread telling not to axe it. If enough people say to axe it, well, it may get axed. If some enough people say "keep it" the feature will be left alone. But they clearly don't want it.
_________________
Adopt an Unanswered Post
Report violations, duplicates, misplaced, etc
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ferdinando
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 25 Nov 2003
Posts: 1027
Location: Gaeta (LT) - Italy

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brims wrote:
Ok, then you explain all the posts "interesting, but don't use it" or "not very useful" or any post similar to these examples. A couple of posts say "never knew it existed", for the most part the tone is to get rid of it.

Wait: most posts were to get rid of it if it was a problem in terms of performance and/or code simplicity, and I agree with that. But you wrote that very few use it, and I disagree: if you search for "features candy" you'll get 5 pages of topics.

brims wrote:
as someone brought up, on a semi fast machine, you can't even read the sentences

True; and that happens to me too, as I wrote a few posts above. But I still like the idea.
I wouldn't mind if it were to change in a better spinner, cute, coloured and funny, but I feel that losing this feature completely would be sad.
I've chosen this distribution a long time ago because it gave me the opportunity to find my own compromise between performance and beauty, and I still want to be free to decide.

My 2 ecu cents.
Bye
_________________
La risposta, non la devi cercare fuori, la devi cercare dentro di te: e però è SBAGLIATA!
-- Corrado Guzzanti, "Pippo Chennedy Show", 1997
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
amne
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 17 Nov 2002
Posts: 6378
Location: Graz / EU

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jedsen wrote:
Again, Bob P, thank you for that steaming load of useless crap.


Feel free to disagree with your fellow community members, but please do it in a more professional way next time.
_________________
Dinosaur week! (Ok, this thread is so last week)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 2 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum