Sick of Gentoo

[voidzero]

[re_re]

[humbletech99]

that other year has been coming for a very long time but must have gotten lost along the way...

I think it's been "The Year of Linux" since 1993...
_________________
The Human Equation:

value(geeks) > value(mundanes)

[zetagz]

This post is mentioned for power users (i think everybody who uses/installs gentoo is power user )

I think that i know what blk_jack mentioned what he say....
blk_jack: I agreed with you. not just gentoo but whole world

My opinion:
I bet many of you guys, not only linux users, windows/osx users as well. Theres no solution , we are all addicted to linux and that what brings hassle within. Sometimes i hope that everything should go smooth and nicely and that i had a very good solution for my needs. I could do that and get best performance for my computer with linux and using only those programs what i really need/use but .... (yeah there always comes but). Do i want it? no.. theres always programs and updates what id like to test, still in development.
Sometimes if i have well working system, im fustrated for that because sometimes I really want to hassle with programs and tweak everything.
"I wish there should be a switcher in my computer between highly stable mode and Tweaking mode. Highly stable mode should have ONLY everything what i need and everything and have very stable system,thats it. In tweaking mode there should be puzzles and lots of upgrades to test for."

Linux is like a non-ending game. We all play with it and all want to solve puzzles, map makers (developers) are making new maps all the time and we have always lots of puzzles ahead. When we are fustrating with puzzle, or we cannot solve problem, or we dont want to waste time for it, we google and find walktroughs. We need challenges, but sometimes we feel: "When this game stops". That is sometimes fustrating because that game doesnt have an end. Lets assuming that game has an end (like windows (lack of money)) you have solved all problems and reached end and what then (in windows many people starts piracy carrier when end has reached:))? For a while you are satified but in the end you are fustrated because you dont have any puzzles anymore ?!? then comes endless waiting for expansion packs etc.

And what that tells you? You are POWER user (as I) and you are happily addicted to linux We need more , we are hungry, we just aint getting enough. Sometimes we had enough, but how long? Sound familiar? I think that sounds familiar to heroin user also .

You walk in street: is there good weather? is there just a little bit too cold, too warm, too windy, too wet or too dry? We are human beigns and theres no perfect solution with computers or weather . We always want more. We always are seeking better. Greediness?.
As bck_jack said. windows isnt solution. I Agree. neither mac. i think gentoo is best solution this.
Tweaking is fun but sometimes we are tired to do it.
We have lots of where to choose (KDE, Gnome, Fluxbox , Enlightenment etc, etc..) When we are bored to KDE we switch gnome. Not a much time we read an article: NEW fluxbox and those new AWSOME features! we bore gnome and we switch to fluxbox and try those new features etc. etc. When we again choose new KDE and we are again cycling circle round and round and round..) Who wouldnt fustrate for that? We have too much to choose for, and luckily we have lots what to choose ? DAMN im getting dizzy!

Did i understand your point? if yes, i understand you VERY WELL and im feeling that way sometimes too

I really, I am considering that I would put 2 x gentoo with dualboot and making stable/tweak solution .
Stupid? mayby. But if that satisfied me so what...
How long? dunno .

ps. sorry my bad english...

[Softfailur]

I feel much like blk_jack sometimes. And I'm quite happy that he started this discussion. I also have to say that I can't agree with people like voidzero or humbletech99 who say that "Things are just like they are and you should like it or go somewhere else".

I think that what makes many of us using Linux as a _desktop_ solution for everyday tasks is that on the one side it does exactly what we want it to do (although sometimes making it doing that costs so much time that some start to ask themselves is this really worth the time spent) and on the other side Linux gives remarkable freedom. The freedom in choosing the concrete desktop environment and the freedom in encouraging developers to improve the things the way _we_ (the users, not some sort of company standing behind system development like in OSX/Windows case) want them to be.

And here comes the problem that in my opinion blk_jack wants to discuss just from the beginning of the thread. Why if everything should be so good (as I said before Linux and the open software movement itself create opportunities for users to influence the directions of development to the extent impossible for proprietary counterparts) the time passes and some things remain like they were x years before? Like it would be _no_ real progress towards making Linux more user-friendly in the desktop area. And in my opinion to answer to these question we should look at the problem like two seperate things which blk_jack mentioned in his first post:
1) desktop environment feeling;
2) general Linux user impression.

Ad. 1

I have to agree that some things in desktop environments available for Linux aren't so great as they could be. But I think that in that area some real improvement is going to happen with new versions of KDE, Gnome and others (although I use KDE and wouldn't like to speak about others with which I'm not so familiar). There are several signs that allow us to think about it in this way - the whole freedesktop project trying to combine the efforts of several desktop related projects to provide the end-user with something more common, more consistent, more well-thought-out (this is what user-friendliness is all about, isn't it?).

Also the recently introduced technologies like GLX & AIGLX show that improvement is still possible and needed (the enormous users' interest in it surely confirms that). Although this GL related projects reveal us another important observation. Sometimes to really push things forward a better motivation than the usual 'satisfaction only' is needed (and I rather mean 'self-satisfaction' - how many percent of Linux users know the name of even one developer of the desktop they use?). It's characteristic that things really got finished when companies like RedHat and Novell entered the stage.

And now we can ask a question: "How can we, as _users_ and members of this community participate in the whole process of software development? I propose that if some of us have the need to share with others with their thoughts about some piece of software and the way it could be improved then lets subscribe to the appropriate mailing-list and post there your observations and ideas. This way you can send a signal to the developers that you don't like some things and try to convince them about your arguments. And some may not agree on that but in my opinion it's also a valuable _contribution_ to the end product that we will all use in the end. Because it will make using it much more comfortable and pleasant. Good ideas are as much important as good code or maybe even more. Don't let some say 'Like it, write your own or get loss!'. Good ideas are really valuable and needed. The discussion and ideas produce improvements too!

Telling all the people voicing some objections to the quality of software 'Go and write a better one!' doesn't really solve anything. And it definately won't if Linux becomes more and more mainstream and more and more average (you can call them 'mortals') users will start to hang around arguing about how some things are being done. And telling _them_ to start creating their own software will definately not take us anywhere.

Ad. 2

Today besides desktop related problems there is a huge amount of inconvenient solutions when it comes to general Linux-using stuff. Lets just name some of them to make things clear:
- all hwardware related configuration needed when using many multimedia-related programs (these making use of TV tuner cards i.e.);
- updating the system - Gentoo may not be the best example here because when you decide to use source-based distro you agree to make some things in a more complicated manner than in i.e. Fedora-like distros. But even when you look at systems like Fedora there are some glitches when it comes to update procedures and not always everything goes smoothly (i.e. without making changes to some config files).

To get rid of this type of problems there is only one answer in my opinion: further work. Linux makes some improvement. Month after month, year after year it is getting closer and closer to better, less user-involving solutions, but there is still a gap. We will get to the point when you don't have to change any config file because there are some really good and automagically working subsystems but it will just take us some more time.

And to end this long post: 'Don't discourage people from criticism because it's a sign of care and it triggers off development or at least change its direction'.

P.S. And don't tell me that saying that something just isn't perfect (when it really isn't) is a kind of disloyalty with developers. I'm sure that they know the weak sides of their products and are determined to improve it (if they weren't why would they start it at all knowing that achieving the final stage will take time?). But sometimes it's just good to tell them that users (which should be most important for developers in the end) want something to be done in other so that it could be implemented at least as an option.

P.S. 2 Yes I am grateful to developers for all the hard work too.

[humbletech99]

I'm not sure if the novelist above is keeping up with current affairs but there is a distro called Ubuntu (is that hissing I hear from the stage?...). Go use it and we'll see how much you learn about GNU/Linux...
_________________
The Human Equation:

value(geeks) > value(mundanes)

[Softfailur]

[humbletech99]

you didn't say you were using a Mac arch. In that case, er...maybe you want to use the Mac OS since it actually works on it...

I know people using Ubuntu and it has been quick and painless for them.
_________________
The Human Equation:

value(geeks) > value(mundanes)

[Softfailur]

[soongjason]

MacOS -- made for people who just want to get the job done fast and simple without understanding it.
ex. I bought a bluetooth headset and adapter I got everything
work within 2 mins such as listen music via bluetooth headset.

Windows -- made for some people who want to explore the "inner computer world", and getting thing done
but don't want to get their hand dirty. (Visual Studio)
ex. I bought a bluetooth headset and adapter I took me 4 hrs to get everything work,
such as listen music via bluetooth headset.

Linux (Gentoo) -- made for geek who think they can create a better world. They make their hand really dirty and nothing much is done after long hours all they gain is "Linux Knowledge" and also "fun".
ex. I bought a bluetooth handset and adapter, it took me almost
2 hours for my box to talk with the adapter,
1 hour for my adapter to "recognize" to my headset,
6 hours for my bluetooth adapter to talk to my headset,
"many many" hours to listen music via bluetooth headset.


Do not reinvent wheel. Unless you are scientist or geektoo.

* many many == currently working on it or already gave up
_________________
When you install a regular distribution (including GENTOO), you often end up installing a lot of programs that you would probably never use. They're just sitting there taking up (precious) disk space.

[cokey]

i've felt the same before and i have left. I always come back to Gentoo though
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[pony-tail]

[humbletech99]

[omp]

[humbletech99]

Well, people are complaining that they want easy to use and not bother with configuration etc... then they should not use gentoo, they should use a simpler distro better suited to noobs like Ubuntu or Fedora Core or Suse. They have more graphical tools, easy installations and they just slap a working system on a box in no time. Half an hour from now, you can have the system you want. Personally, I'm sticking with Gentoo...
_________________
The Human Equation:

value(geeks) > value(mundanes)

[blk_jack]

[humbletech99]

This was an example of configuration, what you are talking about is software quality and consistency. Unfortunately, sometimes you get what you pay for, when you pay you demand a certain level of product, when it's free, sometimes it's very good and sometimes not, but you take your chances.

Your gripe is a very general linux complaint and I fully understand. I've had my own share of annoyances in running it like a desktop. Linux has been projected at being 5-10 years away from being of the consistency and quality of the commercials distributions to the point where you can really rely on it as a desktop OS.

I think that Gentoo is one of the easier and nicer distros for upgrading. It's definitely one of the best I've ever used. Shame about all the compiling though, people have a point when they say we're adding to the destruction of the environment with all this extra energy drainage...
_________________
The Human Equation:

value(geeks) > value(mundanes)

[aidanjt]

How many lightbulbs (ranging from 40-120W) are left on when they're not needed?.. pretty damn often. The difference between a cpu idle and in full whack is between 15-30W, the average package takes 30 minutes to compile.. I hardly see that is blowing up the enviroment, and that's coming from someone who see's the need to urgently replace fossil fuels as an energy source.

[re_re]

[humbletech99]

[pony-tail]

Although I am currently "playing" with E 17 , KDE is what I have mostly used over the years.
Like the other poster said you can put a 'doze user on (in this case my 9.5 year old grandaughter)
Point them at the "K" and let them go and they can find what they need. After 3 installs and 6months
She can now install Debian with just a hand written cheat sheet telling her what to put in the blanks -
Gentoo is maybe a little way off. But had KDE not been as intuitive she would just have walked away.
Although I think tuxracer and tuxcart may have played a role.
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Old but active

[Softfailur]

[humbletech99]

ha ha, well done little smarty-pants!

You do realise however though, that it's people like you who will put all IT people out of jobs. When's she's 20 and willing to work for £15K a year, we're all gonna be in trouble...
_________________
The Human Equation:

value(geeks) > value(mundanes)

[Headrush]

[humbletech99]

Why doesn't somebody reimplement the GPL version of the QT widget set then...?
_________________
The Human Equation:

value(geeks) > value(mundanes)