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dhave
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 Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:35 am Post subject: review of new Gentoo installer |
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I saw this on OSNews:
http://www2.asteriasgi.com/review/
This may have been discussed here before; if so, sorry. I did a quick search and didn't see mention of it, at least recently. |
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Lazy_Dewd
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 22 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:42 am Post subject: |
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that's very nice. first time I see something like that.
would be nice if you could choose between this and the current installation method. the current install learned me ALOT and I like it |
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coco-loco
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| As far as I know, you still have the choice to install manually or to use the installer. I believe that this installer is a seperate project for people having not enough knowledge or simply being lazy. |
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dhave
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| coco-loco wrote: | | I believe that this installer is a seperate project for people having not enough knowledge or simply being lazy. |
Are those the only two choices? I'm interested in this installer and I don't believe I'm in either of these categories. |
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jedsen
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like he didn't run into any bugs. Nice.
I wish I had used that when I put gentoo on my desktop. Would've made things much easier. |
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Earthwings
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coco-loco
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| dhave wrote: | | Are those the only two choices? I'm interested in this installer and I don't believe I'm in either of these categories. |
Actually I think that someone who switches to Gentoo has that great opportunity to discover each end every package that runs on his machine, to learn how to configure them and -> !!!! most important !!! -> learn tons of things about his system and Linux generally.
I have made several stage one installs, and I learned new things on every installation, someone who wants to avoid that is IMHO... lazy. But this is a personal approach.
OK - perhaps someone who wants to spend less time on the installation might use such an installer as well! But, to tell the truth, I choosed Gentoo because it's the one and only (except LFS) where you have full control about everything - therefore I would not want to use such an installer. But I think it's up to everyone to decide himself... |
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dhave
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| coco-loco wrote: | | dhave wrote: | | Are those the only two choices? I'm interested in this installer and I don't believe I'm in either of these categories. |
Actually I think that someone who switches to Gentoo has that great opportunity to discover each end every package that runs on his machine, to learn how to configure them and -> !!!! most important !!! -> learn tons of things about his system and Linux generally. |
That's precisely why I've spent the past two years using Slackware.
| Quote: | | I have made several stage one installs, and I learned new things on every installation, someone who wants to avoid that is IMHO... lazy. But this is a personal approach. |
I've done a stage 1 and a stage 3, plus built LFS. But if I decide to do a quick Gentoo install on a new laptop using this new installer, that doesn't make me a lazy bum. It just means I need to get down to work sooner. Neither laziness nor apathy has anything to do with it.
Linux is about choice. You shouldn't belittle others' choices just because they're not the same as yours.
| Quote: |
OK - perhaps someone who wants to spend less time on the installation might use such an installer as well! But, to tell the truth, I choosed Gentoo because it's the one and only (except LFS) where you have full control about everything - therefore I would not want to use such an installer. But I think it's up to everyone to decide himself... |
Ah, so you do get my meaning, after all. |
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coco-loco
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know why everyone is so quickly offensed in this whole scene (with a mind to the latest flamewar between Linus and Gnome devel)...
We have tons of distros, something for everyone's taste - and so many individuals with different minds. And Gentoo allows several different people to use it in different ways... I even know some that use it exclusively with precompiled packages. Up to everyone to make what he wishes, no? And to have a different mind about it  |
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Shadow Skill
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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At least now if I ever have to reinstall Gentoo I won't have to use the two machine approach just to set all of the appropriate options.
_________________
Ware wa mutekinari.
Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.
"First there was nothing, so the lord gave us light. There was still nothing, but at least you could see it." |
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-BarneY-
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Joined: 03 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:27 am Post subject: |
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The Load/Save-Buttons are interesting, too. Looks like you can save your installation-options to load them for another installation. That would make it very easy to install gentoo on several machines, without configuring twice.
Or for installing Gentoo for users not knowing what Linux is: Here is your CD, here is your install-file, load it and all becomes fine - ok, just a joke. *g* |
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Sir No
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:06 am Post subject: Re: review of new Gentoo installer |
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And on the above site one can read:
| Quote: | Setup
The setup process for the Gentoo installation is similar to that of other linux distributions. The main difference is what the Gentoo installer has added. Especially attractive is the gui-based partitioning system. You can easily select how large of a partition you want for each device: |
And that's exactly what scares me the most. It's not the "elitist" or "manual" Gentoo approach that concerns me. It's all about dumbing everything down. It's all about loosing one of the greatest opportunities to LEARN about inner working of a Linux installation.
It's not about the current user base of Gentoo. It's not about seasoned Gentoo users, because they all did the manual installation at least once, reading the Handbook thoroughly. The current, vibrant community has grown exactly because of the fact that overcoming the problems and pitfalls made it stronger. Not following the Handbook but giving the users (especially !!!! the newbies) a graphical, point-n-click, turn-off-your-mind, don't-even-think-about reading-this-F*-manual installer is one of the worst things that could ever happen to the Gentoo Linux. (please read more before you flame me!)
To tell you the truth, I thought about it for a long time. It's been like several months already when I was silently thinking and not voicing about it. And here are my conclusions.
- It doesn't matter how many warnings you put in the installer.
See this first (and READ the text!!! don't skip it as most of the hasty users do):
http://www2.asteriasgi.com/review/images/1.png
When the graphical Gentoo installer comes out, the press WILL write:
"Gentoo Linux graphical installer makes the previously cumbersome installation process of this system a breeze. No more scary command line nor need to edit the configuration files by hand (like fstab, grub.conf, xorg.conf to name only a few), no more reading lenghty manuals (and who needs that anyway?). Just use your mouse to select options, like the real men do - and everything should go smoothly as silk."
- Number of the questions asked on the forums WILL raise, and the quality of the problems WILL BE lower.
Users (especially the newbies) dazzled by the blinking lights of the graphical installer will more easily get into trouble. Typical problems will concern not only the simple mistakes with the basic configuration. They will also ask why this or that has to be sooo tediously configured by the text files, while this whole installation was so easily done graphically with the Mighty Mouse in Hand (TM).
It wouldn't matter that most of such problems are already known to the current Gentoo users. Even if all of them have been already discussed over and over hundred times on the forums, finding this information for newbies empowered with the mighty graphics (and a mouse) will be in most cases hard. Yes, the forums provide support. But the ratio of information vs. noise may drop easily.
- If people DON'T HAVE TO learn, they rarely do.
Ask yourself: why did you read the [Greatly Praised by Some (TM)] Gentoo Handbook [of Wisdom] in the first place? Exactly because there was no other way. If one couldn't pass the test of reading the manual and understanding its contents, then one wouldn't get Gentoo installed on their machine. Simple natural selection. Similar to the preliminary exams before one can start their studies at the good university.
With the graphical alternative people WILL think:
"Why the heck should I read this 50+ page long handbook? Why should I do the manual installation, even if the installer says so? This installer was created to make things simpler. And it should work correctly to the smallest bit. It should deliver me the fastest and optimized Linux on the planet. At least that's what all the reviews say. Otherwise this whole Gentoo is just crap."
So in the end they will not become good citizens of the Gentoo community, because of their ignorance and unwillingness to read and learn. Fast questions, fast solutions. Fast, faster, the fastest! No thinking involved. That's the nightmare of the future should the things go wrong.
- The installer team WILL have to do its job perfectly.
There simply wouldn't be place for a single mistake. People expect the automatic installers to be wiser than themselves. Such software should do the Right Thing (TM) and should do it properly. That's the lesson learned in the omnipresent Windows environment. Linux distribution with graphical installer is considered by some people as "just a different Windows" system. How incorrect it is, is known only to the Linux users.
Should the problems with installer arise (and with 99% accuracy, they will), this will be attributed to the problems with the whole Gentoo distribution and its image will suffer. It's inevitable when a distribution gains more momentum and becomes more popular. From my experience with Debian 3.1 Sarge, even if the installed Debian gives the user a minimum amount of trouble (really!), getting it installed in the first place using the debian-installer was a nightmare, until most of the d-i bugs were eradicated. And how different Gentoo and Debian are I don't have to explain to anyone (I hope).
Final disclaimer
Don't get me wrong. I am NOT against the graphical installer initiative. I appreciate all the hard work being done. But in all honesty, this shouldn't be promoted as the official installation method. It should be positioned as another, alternative method of installing Gentoo - like the Kororaa is. See for yourself - the http://distrowatch.com lists both Gentoo and Kororaa as two distrubutions. The latter is described as "being based on Gentoo" (and I really DO know what Kororaa is, and how it gives the user a typical Gentoo installation - but the preconfigured one).
I think that the best effect of using Linux is that one has to learn more about the computer he/she uses. It's the learning factor the Gentoo emphasizes that users appreciate the most. In everything you do with the graphical installer, please, don't forget about that.
(and in my opinion [Gentoo] Linux is not for everyone and it shouldn't be; emphasis put on "everyone", then on "Gentoo")
And a final thought
On the asteriasgi site the author of the review (apparently a Gentoo user) makes an interestnig statement at the very end:
| Quote: |
"Soon, a typical user will be able to install a completely working operating system from scratch using the GUI-based Installer. Once all the bugs and development testing is finished, Gentoo will surely continue to grow in both the desktop and corporate markets."
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This may be the key point which could invalidate most of my rants above. Let's hope that this proves to be right and me to be wrong. Maybe then it's just a matter of modifying the Handbook in a way that would accomodate the best of both worlds: Gentoo spirit and easy installation.
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Annapurna
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Location: Saskatoon, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| coco-loco wrote: |
Actually I think that someone who switches to Gentoo has that great opportunity to discover each end every package that runs on his machine, to learn how to configure them and -> !!!! most important !!! -> learn tons of things about his system and Linux generally.
I have made several stage one installs, and I learned new things on every installation, someone who wants to avoid that is IMHO... lazy. But this is a personal approach.
OK - perhaps someone who wants to spend less time on the installation might use such an installer as well! But, to tell the truth, I choosed Gentoo because it's the one and only (except LFS) where you have full control about everything - therefore I would not want to use such an installer. But I think it's up to everyone to decide himself... |
I personally switched to Gentoo from Arch just recently because I wanted more control over my system. I would be very saddened if we got a new installer and the old manual installation method ceased to be supported. Other than that I have nothing against an installer except I've had problems with them on some Linux distributions(not Arch though) before and would not want to see it as the only option.
The control over installation of the system and packages is what makes Gentoo great. For instance for X.org Gentoo is the only distro where I've had no errors or warnings being spat out as I'm running it... even though it's mostly worked under distro's the warning's that some of the binary packages I got spat out really bothered me.
Andrew, |
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tuber
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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I have a practical reason for wanting an easy install method. As a developer at a hardware company, I often need some computers to use as clients or servers. I would like to be able to grab a free computer, pop in a Gentoo CD, spend a few minutes setting up the installation phase, kick it off, and come back in a while when it's done. The compilation time doesn't bother me since I don't need the machine immediately, but what I don't want is to have to go through all the typing and monitoring steps. If that makes me lazy, fine, but I'm not getting paid to install Gentoo by hand (and just assume that I do need a fresh installation). Right now, I use Mandrake because it allows me to do that, but I'd rather use Gentoo since that's what I have on my desktops (and yes, I install those by hand) and am more familiar with it.
The next bit is a rant so if you don't feel the need to aggravate yourself, just skip to the next post.
In all honesty, I'm not trying to start a flamewar, but...
What is it with a significant number of Linux users that believe there is only one way to do things and everybody else is lazy/stupid/a noob/an MS lackey/etc? Does this style of arguing really work? Is the only reason to use Linux to prove to the world that we are "salt of the computer" men and women? Why not take the argument to its end? If you truly want to learn Linux, you should not be using someone else's distro unless you are lazy and stupid. Start from scratch and make your own distro you wuss!!! And if you really want to learn your system, why are you using someone else's code? You should be writing all your software from scratch you wuss!!!
Now, I'm not saying all Linux users are this way, nor that there aren't a number of MS supporters that believe the same way about Windows, but a number of people think that Linux adherents are pyschotic. Somebody posts a pointer to a new easier to use installation method, and others make an effort to call the poster lazy and stupid. Nice.
End Rant. |
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BlackEdder
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| tuber wrote: | | What is it with a significant number of Gentoo users that believe there is only one way to do things and everybody else is lazy/stupid/a noob/an MS lackey/Ubuntu user/etc? Does this style of arguing really work? Is the only reason to use Gentoo to prove to the world that we are "salt of the computer" men and women? Why not take the argument to its end? If you truly want to learn Linux, you should not be using someone else's distro unless you are lazy and stupid. Start from scratch and make your own distro you wuss!!! And if you really want to learn your system, why are you using someone else's code? You should be writing all your software from scratch you wuss!!! |
Fixed your rant. I get irritated when people act like the stance of Gentoo users is the same as of all Linux users. We are Gentoo users for a reason. One of the reasons is that it is a distro for non-(lazy/stupid/a noob/an MS lackey/Ubuntu users/etc). Or to word it differently: Gentoo is currently a distro for people that like to fiddle with their computer/learn about their computer. |
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-BarneY-
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Joined: 03 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:01 am Post subject: |
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@Sir No:
Hm, yes, you have pointed out some interesting issues. But I don't think that things become so bad as you explained.
First of all, after you have successed in doing a GUI-based Gentoo-installation, you do not have a whole running system, you have just a base system. You have to do lots of configuring stuff (network, kernel compilation, emerge packages and so on). So, you have to work with the gentoo handbook or you will fail in running an usable Gentoo system. Also, the GUI does not say what CFLAGS are, for example. And users, which are not willing to configure their systems by editing config-files - well - I give them only a few days with Linux.
On the other hand, you can do a handbook-based Gentoo-installation without learning anything at all, too. Shutdown your brain and typing the commands written at the handbook blindly into your 1337-machine. There will be no learn effect at all too. Indeed, if you want to learn something about Linux, you should perform a handy Gentoo-installation - and then, you will do such an installation.
But, I personaly know, how Linux(-installations) works - so, if I can save time when setting up a Gentoo-box, I will use the graphical installation method. 
Don't get me wrong. I think you are particular right - maybe there will be some posts like you described it, but I don't think, the Gentoo-comunity will change after the release of the GUI-installer, simply because it is (and will be) still impossible to use Gentoo without dealing with config-files and the Linux system itself. |
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coco-loco
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| BlackEdder wrote: | | Fixed your rant. I get irritated when people act like the stance of Gentoo users is the same as of all Linux users. We are Gentoo users for a reason. One of the reasons is that it is a distro for non-(lazy/stupid/a noob/an MS lackey/Ubuntu users/etc). Or to word it differently: Gentoo is currently a distro for people that like to fiddle with their computer/learn about their computer. |
Agree 100%!!!
Even if he's called a n00b, a Gentoo user at least knows how to use a command line, what fstab means and where to find it. I hope that barney is right and that this won't change now. If you have, like you can see that in many other dedicated forums, to explain to someone how to su (and it takes 3 posts until he understands that he needs to open a console first)... OMG!!!
On the other hand, after some reflection, I see the advantages for a use of such an installer like tuber describes it, but I'm afraid that this kind of use will rather be an exception. I'm pretty sure that there will soon be tons of dudes around who never ever had even a glimpse at the handbook... in this point I feel like Sir No.
As I started using computers, Windows wasn't born yet. One had to know where to find his files, to know how to use commands and how to set up an application (I remember that I tweaked at least a week to get some sound out of my box). People had to learn how to use a computer, and this wasn't wrong. It's kind of like driving a car - everyone can put his foot on the gas pedal, but this does not mean that he's able to drive the car. This drastically changed with the coming of Windows. Today, most of the computer users are remotely controlled from Redmont, and to my disappointment even some Linux distributions are getting closer to this kind of approach.
It's not that I condemn such distros, Linux is freedom and everyone is free to use it the way he wants. It's just that I feel much more confortable with a system like Gentoo. Those who want an easy to use distro shall choose Fedora or Ubuntu, and I don't see the need for Gentoo to become one of these running-out-of-the-box-for-every-dummy systems - I'm just afraid that this installer is the first step in this direction. |
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| the GUI installer doesn't really change anything, it only generates a set of commands to perform from the questions it asks you and runs them when you're done.. the underlying installation process doesn't change, so there will always be the terminal installation method we all know and love. |
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Shadow Skill
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Blackedder I hate to tell you this but the attitudes expressed here are not really only indicative of Gentoo users other users elsewhere express the same dogmatic thinking. Besides [supposedly] Gentoo is a flavour of Linux so it is completely fair to point out that a large number of Linux users do actually think this way irrespective of what you think. It's silly to suggest that making things easier correlates to people not knowing about something. [This is where proper manuals come in and not the garbage that is supposed to pass for a manual in the computing world.] hell why don't we just get rid of plug and play and go back to manual system resource configuration since then we will all have the joy of learning about how to memorize fairly large lists of memory addresses and the devices which use those addresses and the IRQ's so on and so forth. We must all be so much dumber than the guys who had to sit down and set jumpers on every device they bought and then fight with some software to assign system resources so thier devices would actually work.............Its a joke to suggest that having a second machine next to you where you read exactly what to type into the box teaches you how to actually use your system or even teaches you a concept. Its not even like learning a programming language from a book where the text tries to explain concepts behind what is being typed, and hopefully if the book is really good provide an appropriate context to apply the concept so a human being is able to synthesize the information given. You don't actually have to think to get a Gentoo box setup since the installation guide is as good as it is, so I fail to see how the sky is supposed to fall if the gui became the standard installation method.
_________________
Ware wa mutekinari.
Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.
"First there was nothing, so the lord gave us light. There was still nothing, but at least you could see it." |
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Shadow Skill wrote: | | Its a joke to suggest that having a second machine next to you where you read exactly what to type into the box teaches you how to actually use your system or even teaches you a concept. |
hmm.. dunno about that now, I has been my experience that practicing something is a kind of mental memory glue, of course purely typing in exact same commands without any kind of written explaination of what you are doing isn't going to aid understanding.
Although the GUI Installer is a good thing, an apt user can put together a long string of commands on the LiveCD, leave the system working at it and they could return several hours later to see kdm waiting for a login |
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Sir No
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Shadow Skill wrote: | | Its a joke to suggest that having a second machine next to you where you read exactly what to type into the box teaches you how to actually use your system or even teaches you a concept. Its not even like learning a programming language from a book where the text tries to explain concepts behind what is being typed, and hopefully if the book is really good provide an appropriate context to apply the concept so a human being is able to synthesize the information given. |
I agree with you... to some point.
If one reads the Gentoo Handbook, in reality one can find quite a bit of explanation why things should be done this or that way. See Chapter 4. Preparing the Disks, for example, or 3.c. Manual Network Configuration and the "Understanding Network Terminology" subsection. That's exactly the amount of knowledge the newbies might miss if they skip the reading. And I'm not recommending to read the handbook in its entirety (I didn't reach 100% myself, to be honest), but knowing that there is some source where one can look for answers is a great benefit IMHO.
| Shadow Skill wrote: | | You don't actually have to think to get a Gentoo box setup since the installation guide is as good as it is, so I fail to see how the sky is supposed to fall if the gui became the standard installation method. |
That's so very true... to some point.
Typing commands without understanding their purpose can, of course, give someone a working Gentoo environment. Luckily, not always. And for some power user, who | AidanJT wrote: | | can put together a long string of commands on the LiveCD |
the importance of both the handbook and installer is lower. But the amount of knowledge already posessed differs wildly between a newbie and a power user.
One question at the end. Would you be really happy to see and answer all those questions, which may flood the forums if the installer was incorrectly advertised? Sure, educating users (especially new users) in the form of giving them a good manual is beneficiary. This way their questions could be already answered and all they would only need to RTFM (pun intended).
Let's hope this whole idea turns into something wonderful. And BTW, is there any better way than showing a nice GUI (installer and/or cool desktop screenshots) to lure new users into Gentoo?
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Sir No wrote: | | ...And BTW, is there any better way than showing a nice GUI (installer and/or cool desktop screenshots) to lure new users into Gentoo? |
Engineer a virus that removes the idiot gene?  |
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coco-loco
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Joined: 30 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Sir No wrote: | | Sure, educating users (especially new users) in the form of giving them a good manual is beneficiary. This way their questions could be already answered and all they would only need to RTFM (pun intended). |
To be honest, Gentoo is still the best documented distro... perhaps even the best documented piece of software at all. But have a look at some of the questions that are asked in the forums - do you really believe that these people is reading the handbooks? I don't think so! And now, with this installer there will be swarms of them that not even read the first ten lines...
When I went to Linux, I was asking things in some forums, and I got the same answer nine times out of ten: read the f****** manual !!! I had to learn that the *nix world is not like shopping at the supermarket. I don't think that the Gentoo community needs to lure people with some nice installers, they rather might have a reason to decide to switch to Gentoo - because they are willing to learn something, because they have decided themselves to make some more efforts, because they will have a look at the man-pages before they panic! There's so many of them around even by now who don't even launch a search on the forum because it's so easy... there's noone around anymore to shout a good old RTFM!!!!!
We all have to thank people that helped us as noob's, no question at all! But how many of them will really make an effort? Have a look on the Fedora or Ubuntu forums. Look at what questions are asked (OK - their doc is only about 5 pages long...), nine out of then topics have already a thread in the same forum that isn't older than a week... these are people I really dont want to use Gentoo, because one'll spend days to help solve their problems, and at the end they tell you "oh - sorry, I switched to Mandriva two days ago already where it works out of the box... sorry, I forgot to tell you Thanks anyways!
As I told before, I'm not basically against such an installer, but I have some doubts about what new people will be attracted by this new feature... maybe (hopefully) I'm wrong |
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Syntaxis
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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The review itself isn't too bad; it's just a shame about the introductory paragraph. Its massive pro-Gentoo bias will most likely lead people to call the objectivity of the review into question.
| Quote: | | The Gentoo flavor of Linux is rapidly gaining market share |
Good stuff, if true. Some actual evidence to substantiate this claim would be nice, though...
| Quote: | | the tools created for Gentoo are superior to the equivalent tools in other flavors of Linux |
This could certainly be argued. However, it should be argued, not left to stand on its own as though it's so self-evident that nobody would ever think to question it.
| Quote: | | the Gentoo development community has created a new installer package that has been under development for months and promises to become the de facto standard for Linux installers. |
As Carl Sagan said: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Given that the review's conclusion is that the Gentoo installer still isn't ready for the typical user, I think it might be early days for such arrogant presumption.
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Omega21
l33t
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 788
Location: Canada (brrr. Its cold up here)
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:13 am Post subject: |
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Haven't gotten a new computer to try it with. The interface looks great guys! Although QT would be nicer...
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