review of new Gentoo installer

[slycordinator]

[kashani]

yes it's time for another "Keep Gentoo leet" thread.

Gentoo isn't about pain, it's about getting work done... at least for me. Anything, and I mean *anything*, that allows me to spend less time working and more time having a life is a good thing. Therefore we can deduce that anyone who wants to waste their time with a longer install is a hobbyist, dilettante, and a dabbler. Which is about the same conclusion as calling me a noob.

Overall Gentoo saves me time and with a certain amount of work most of my install blues go away. However I would like to see kickstart/unattended installer/regular installer type projects mature and become standard...

...hey think of how much harder the install will be and how cool you'll feel when you have to figure out how to do a manual install on your own without any help from a manual or standard tools. That'll be neat!

kashani
_________________
Will personally fix your server in exchange for motorcycle related shop tools in good shape.

[dhave]

I think slycordinator has a good point. In fact, my dirty little secret is that I'm currently using Gentoo for *ease of use* more than for its geek appeal.

Sure, the installation and initial compilation marathon were toward the the geeky end of things, but since then, thanks to portage, system maintenance is greatly automated in comparison with, say, Slackware, where I handle package management pretty much on my own. With Slack, for each each package installation or update. I have to (or should) read the changelog to decide myself if the update is desirable and to determine what effect it may have on my system. Sometimes I like this approach; sometimes I don't. But in terms of daily use and system maintenance, Slack forces a far more intimate relationship with the system than Gentoo requires.

It's true that Slack packages are pre-compiled* and with Gentoo they have to be compiled a la carte; however, Gentoo applies my global configuration options and handles dependency management for me, so, once I've got things set the way I want them, I don't have to be at the controls unless I want to be. That's the key for me: can I get at the controls if I want to, and does the distro encourage or discourage learning about the system's inner workings? Both Gentoo and Slack encourage it, so they're where I spend my Linux time.

(*Though Slack makes rolling your own packages more feasible since few or no custom patches are required; therefore Slack encourages user involvement here more than other distros, and probably more than Gentoo.)

This whole installer debate really boils down to the fact that some people want to see the hidden machinery when they install, and others don't, or not every single time, anyway. Likewise, some people want to have full control when they do system maintenance, and other don't, or not every single time. Also, there are many points along the spectrum, and your attitude toward the hidden machinery may vary depending on how much time you have, or whether there's potential for learning, whether you're trying to avoid some other work or school obligation, or whether you're drinking coffee or beer.

I think Gentoo users (Slack and LFS, too), should recognize that they're not necessarily as leet as they might think. And who cares, anyway? The point is to get some work done on your machine and have fun while you're at it. For most of us here, that means enjoying some customizing, tweaking and, some of the time, breaking things so we can fix them.

Have fun!

[petrjanda]

I dont think a graphical installer for gentoo will change many things. Its a good thing because gentoo will finally look like a serious operating system, not a playground. BSDs also have an installer, does it mean that BSD users are less "leet" than Linux users? Of course not. Quite to the contrary, BSD users are often way more skilled than Linux users(quite often what Linux users call "leet", BSD users call "amateurs"). A question remaining to be answered is why is the BSD userbase not full of newbies, even if it has graphical installer,ports,pkgsrc, and other means of making things easy to the user? In my opinion its because they keep a respectable image among sysadmins, workstation users, the unix audience in general, and even non-unix audience. Linux has been for many years considered a "hacker OS" and its users geeks who are up to no good and have no social life, and thats in my opinion one of the reasons so many people from windows try linux, they want to be more leet than their friends.
But i am not anti-newbie, but if gentoo wants to have a respectable image, and keep a user base of skilled users and programmers, there has to be a few things done differently, including the attitude of its users, especially the gentoo website (sorry guys but it just looks so amateurish). Gentoo must present itself as a complete operating system for professionals to keep away the hordes of newbies.
_________________
There is, a not-born, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded. If that unborn, not-become, not-made, not-compounded were not, there would be no escape from this here that is born, become, made and compounded. - Gautama Siddharta

[dhave]

[stormcrowley]

Why does "leetness" have to enter the equation anyway? "leetness" has precisely nothing to do with how a distro works.

I think part of the reason for the outcry against a GUI installer for Gentoo is because most people feel like they swam a lake of fire getting through the Gentoo install docs, and they want to make sure they're not alone in their misery.

Ego accomplishes nothing.
_________________

[petrjanda]

[nemoflo]

Hi,

My point of view is "Extremist or seggregation between newbies and expert is not good for Gentoo and more generally for Linux" (Think : Enterprise Deciders are generally newbies in technical. This will help the linux communauty to argument and more specifically Gentoo ....).
That's a beginning, but it is a good beginning thanks to the programming team.

Wish you a good year.