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Beekster
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:15 am    Post subject: The clearest Iraq article to date Reply with quote

A think tank war: Why old Europe says no

Linked-to within it, is an amazing letter from Jan 26, 1998, whose contents appear to be being implemented currently.
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steveb
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

great article. i did not read the english translation, since i readed the german version some time ago. anyway... Der Spiegel has offten a very sharp view on things. i like that.

and i am so dam happy to be in old good europe and not in the states :)

cheers

SteveB
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KiTaSuMbA
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Impressive! This article should teach some of the TV "journalists" something about their actual job.
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ffderrickg
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This article has nothing new to reveal. It is the same diatribe of anti-american bull I have read many times.

When Slobodan was killing muslims for cleansing purposes, america stopped him.

The only countries that are not for the overthrow of the current Iraqi regime, have great economic advantages to keeping it in place.

High oil prices are as good for american oil companies as for mideast oil companies. If you don't believe me, look at the profits of Exxon/Mobil for the past four years. Independent texas oil producers only pull oil from the ground when oil prices are high.

Who profits from enforced rape and murder?
Who has and is actively trading with Saddam?
The answer is very similar to every country currently against the regime change in Iraq.

Be careful your morals may betray you.
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KiTaSuMbA
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to disagree ffderrickg. A few points:
1) the kosovo intervention:
- It wasn't just america but UN that relied upon NATO's military infrastructure.
- Was the intervention succesful? Hardly so... Kosovo is right now the most ethnically homogeneous region in the balkans: it's just albanese. The extremely few serbs that remained live in barbed wire-fenced houses and more often than not a grenade explodes in their gardens or at the cort of their children's school. That's why there is still a consistent NATO force guarding soon to be replaced by a european one.
2) the "supporting" countries:
You make a serious mistake considering as countries just the current administrations. Wanna really know what italians think of this war? How about that 3-milion people demonstration at Rome on feb. 15th? Berlusconi is definatelly alone on this one. Or how about spanish people? Or brits?
3) oil, oil, oil...
don't be so simplistic. As a matter of fact, if you read the artice you'll see that what they are proposing as real reasons for this war has nothing to do with a bunch more oil-dollars in the pockets of a lobby but rather geopolitical targets.
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scott_ell
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Impressive! This article should teach some of the TV "journalists" something about their actual job.


Frankly, I'm just confused. What exactly will it teach them? This article is propaganda, biased rumor-mongering, nothing more. From the article:

Quote:
"its purely a war about world domination, in business, politics, defence and culture". There are real models for this. They were already under development by far right Think Tanks in the 1990s, organisations in which cold-war warriors from the inner circle of the secret services, from evangelical churches, from weapons corporations and oil companies forged shocking plans for a new world order.


This is extremist paranoia: somewhere a group of illuminati are plotting world domination. It reminds me of the Jewish Zionest conspiracy theories of Nazi Germany. Don't buy it into this BS.

Quote:
There is nothing currently to indicate that Bush truly is pursuing democratisation in the region [iraq].


What are we to infer from this? George W. Bush will be emperor of Iraq? Can we give Americans and our allies a little more credit.

Quote:
This so called pre-emptive war that the PNAC ideologues have longed for against Iraq also serves, in the judgement of Uri Avnery, to take the battle to Europe and Japan. It brings US dominance of Eurasia closer.


Alright, this is where the looney alarms should be ringing in our collective ears. This is extreme, deep-end, sh*t.

This is not journalism, this is propaganga. This is someone with an agenda. There are two sides to every story, and this person is only giving us one side. One very distorted, gruesome side.
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scott_ell
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1) the kosovo intervention: - It wasn't just america but UN that relied upon NATO's military infrastructure.
- Was the intervention succesful? Hardly so... Kosovo is right now the most ethnically homogeneous region in the balkans: it's just albanese. The extremely few serbs that remained live in barbed wire-fenced houses and more often than not a grenade explodes in their gardens or at the cort of their children's school. That's why there is still a consistent NATO force guarding soon to be replaced by a european one.


So because there still bad things happening in Kosovo, intervention was a mistake? I would say stopping an army from committing genocide and imprisoning it's leader is a start. Sometimes there are no clear victories nor solutions, but people are still trying their best to make good out of bad situations.
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ffderrickg
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In response to the Kosovo intervention,

The fact is American Military Power brought this problem to a solution. If you don't like the solution, tough. Europe didn't have the guts to get it done. Europe had the power to solve this problem by itself, but wouldn't. It called on the US to make the hard decisions and draw the line.
After the hard work was finished, NATO and the UN under US protection took control of the situation.
Of Course this is in exception of the United Kingdom.

If it wasn't for the UK I'd say let Europe reap thier own reward.

Get a grip NATO is American military power. Period.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al Qaeda’s Fantasy Ideology is also interesting.
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fmalabre
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ffderrickg wrote:
Of Course this is in exception of the United Kingdom.

I am very amazed to see how well the US propaganda works...
From the movies I saw, I thought it was only the USSR during the cold war which had such a propaganda... Now I realize it's happening here!!!
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DuF
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

propaganda is the tool/toy of great nations and USA are not the last at this game !

ffderrickg wrote:
It called on the US to make the hard decisions and draw the line.
After the hard work was finished, NATO and the UN under US protection took control of the situation.


Apparently, we don't have the same source of information. The kosovo conflict was more complicated than you say.
When France (with support of Tony Blair, so UK) try to solve the conflict with the meeting of "Rambouillet", Madeleine Albright (maybe I made a fault in his name) made all his possible to solve the problem alone, without the agreement of France, UK, URSS, and it's not the only example of the USA attitude at this period.
Don't forget that with the attitude of US governement (under bill clinton), the URSS (under Boris Eltsine) says that they took their responsability and answer of the attack of China ambassade if USA continue in this way... It was Boris Eltsine who says that.
It was not a good attitude, but maybe the bbc documentary lies about that !

The military power of USA is a fact and the world needs this power, but the problem is the way to solve a problem. Anyone say that world doesn't need USA, world needs USA, needs liberty but not like that, not by this way !
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fmalabre
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fmalabre wrote:
ffderrickg wrote:
Of Course this is in exception of the United Kingdom.

I am very amazed to see how well the US propaganda works...
From the movies I saw, I thought it was only the USSR during the cold war which had such a propaganda... Now I realize it's happening here!!!

To explain my quote, here is a yahoo article which just came out:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030311/pl_nm/iraq_britain_poll_dc_1
Which is so different from what the TV relate over here...
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