NWN compared to pen-and-paper

[peter_poulsen]

A friend of mine says that the NWN implementation of the pen-and-paper version of AD&D is not very close to the original. I have never played the pen-and-paper version so I don't know if this true. I have tried comparing the feats in NWN with those in the pen-and-paper rulebook, and I think NWN gets pretty close (but I might be missing something important).

What is peoples oppinion about this? Is NWN close to the pen-and-paper rules?

[roguetech]

Well For one its not an implementation of AD&D, its DND v3.0. As far as I am concerned it does the job quite well. of course somethings cannot be implemented like an actual DND session but its great for a computer game conversion!

[peter_poulsen]

Your are probably right about your comment concerning not being AD&D and DND (what can I say, I don't play it myself), however it was good you got the version number on. I actually got little concerned that it could lead to a major discussion about which version it should be compared to.

[sirdilznik]

As close to pen and paper as you can expect a video game to come (though I haven't played the pen and paper game in ages.. since just after AD&D revision 2 came out).

On a side note it is really sad that it looks like NWN2 will NOT have a linux client. Oh well that's one less customer for them, I won't buy it even if it runs flawlessly under emulation. It's linux native or nothing!

[roguetech]

Yeah I agree. I wouldn't buy it if its not Native, The only games I will own to play on Cedega are the Thief series. Right now aside from that I have Doom3, Ut2004, Heretic 2 (uninstalled it though for space) Nethack, Neverwinter Nights. I hope to get Quake 4 when it comes out! and theDarkMod. Sorry for the rant on what games I have installed or want but back to the point,it is DND 3rd edition becuase thats what the creators said it was based on, I think Greyhawk is based on DND 3.5 rules..

[Lotu]

IMHO hack'n'slash-rpgs are not the thing to be sought for, in real life nor with computer games. The best way to approach a good rpg session with computers is to play it in irc, just like you would were you around the same table.
_________________
In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows and Gates?

I'm an evil homosexual communist.

[peter_poulsen]

Funny you should bring it up. My friends and I often discuss what is preferable, pen-and-paper or computer (here I'm not concerned whith the rule-set, but rather rpg in general). I personally prefer computer games, simply because all the dirty details are taken care of by the computer. And in a game like NWN it also makes it easier for the DM to improvise as creating random items or monster can be done using the DM client. Of course playing over network kind of takes the social element out of it, so we have tried a couple of times to bring our laptops together so, which worked really well.

[lostdave]

wow... my opinions are completely opposite, for the same reasons..... Computer games by necessity limit the scope of what you can achieve in a game. Random mosters or items? Far easier to make up or pick straight from a book than fumble with the interface of a computer game.

Admittedly, I've been playing and gm'ing a very long time, and can quite easily run a 8+ hour game session in either my tabletop or larp games completely without preparation and keep it totally balanced and within the ongoing plot. Hell, I do that for more than half of the session for my cyberpunk-larp and have been doing so for 5 years. 15-20 people still turn up every fortnight, so I must be doing something right.

Computer games are great for solo entertainment, but just aren't up to standard for a group, unless you're total hack-and-slash heads, and that's rollplaying not roleplaying.

On the original topic, NWN system-wise is fairly close to D&D 3.0, with various changes necessary for the style of play - however, most systems in the first few pages that no-one reads repeat a mantra to the effect of "change the system to match the campaign, not the other way round"

[legine]

NMain diff is the focus.

Even DnD concentrates more on dialog then on fighting options.
P&P is not about fighting like you do in diablo. It is about dialog.
The differnece are like day and night. You see that in the gameing system only where are changes made. They are mostly done in the dialog options.

I think that Computer rpg makes fun in a group too. But it is not the same as in P&P.
On computer stories I am always limited by the Programer. On P&P I am only limited by the word.
So which one offers more possibilities?
_________________
quote from Spaceballs:
Dark Helmet:[...] we were told to comb the desert, so we're combing it! [puts down bullhorn] Find anything yet?!
Soldier: Nothing yet, sir.

[nephros]

Pen & Paper also has much better graphics.
_________________
Please put [SOLVED] in your topic if you are a moron.

[Lotu]

As funny as the notion about graphics is, I really must disagree. Absolutely the worst thing about pen&paper games is the lack of audiovisual experience. Only few players I know look like barbarians of strength 18 or are capable of believably acting out the outrageous behaviour of a bastard landlord who in public speaks of goodwill and bible, but whose mansion is a lot closer to hell than heaven.

What I'm trying to say here is that I find the graphics in computer games stunning compared to chips, laptops and nice friends on a couch. There is no feeling of "being there" in either, but in computer games at least the "propping" is done properly. But then arises another problem: The audio part. The only acceptable thing would be that every player had a headset on and would speak everything instead of writing it. And I mean speak in character, not like "hey Sarah, have your barbarian go there, you have 50hp left and I have only 7".

That said, I have found myself unable to get "into character" if there are critical distractions present, and there has always been in every session of pen&paper rpgs. They are a great hobby and I am envious of you people who can enjoy them without the feeling of "argh, this could be so much better". Alas, my only possible choice of rpgs are the live action ones, preferably of the "authenticy at its best and no rules except Use Your Head" genre.

If any of you have experiences of "really getting into character" in computer or pen&paper rpgs, I would really like to hear them. Thank you.
_________________
In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows and Gates?

I'm an evil homosexual communist.

[peter_poulsen]

[legine]

Roleplay is about dreams. Computer games are an amusement.

I cant describe here how great it was I only can say no more then this:

Do you know Reimund Feist and his Krondor Saga (not the Computer game even if that is a late part of it)?
I played Thomas the Valar and it was pretty much fun. Hell of atmosphere. It is hard to describe.
On our Krondor saga we had sometimes (on only very view occations) that one player played and the other were quiet and listened.

A real classic I find very athmospheric is a scene where one of the Heros is left behind for the greater good of all.
He stays to fight the enemy knowing he will die but tries to trade the rest of the group enough time.
Of course for some time the Player is only a listener in the afterword but he had his big show time.

We had another very athmospheric story line when we played circusman and women. That was fun. We had love, tragic, heroism, even fear. We visited Places witch Characters (We played Characters like Gandalf and Finarfin / Celeborn) where you felt that something great had fallen. Imoprtant history happend long ago. Very similar to the feeling you get in Lord of the Rings 1 when Boromir dies. Just bevor that I had the same feeling of a history passed long ago.
The group did not work out. We concluded at a point that the Characters disliked each other and we did not wanted to continue that. But still today I have tons of notes I made to piece different stuff together.

Let me think. Ahh. Yes. We played another group were a sluagh (thats a earthcreature from russia) a stoic nordic troll and a 14 year old fearless sidhe (irish elves <- please do not beat me for that) were involved in a epic history of good against evil. The power of dreams against the darkness of forgetting.
We faought bravely in Sanfrancisco and in the so called dreaming. We visited strange Places (i.e. a castle similar to the one seen in the last unicorn or mountains without end). Ahh cant remeber we done a lot.

You see I had a lot of scenes where nothing else mattered as the in character.

What do you need for getting into Character?
1) the Right people. Without the understanding and the agreement that you all want to do this it does not work as good.
2) you need the understanding that you play together. And the GM needs the understanding that his players do always what he wants them to do. There is no "wrong" way
3) You need a phantasy. The gamer says "My Conen has a strength of 21!" Imagine the meaning of 21. Imagine someone like Arnold Schwarzenegger in his best day, with a nice bearskin made scotish clothes and a big axe.
The Language is only a medium like some piece of code. Let you Phantasy engine make the rest.
4) Dont do what is most effective. (mostly thats very boring) Do things that are most atmospheric. But stay realistic!
5) Say "I go...", "I pick up..." not "Cohengoes"
6) keep Character and player seperated. Say when your character acts, stay silent when it is not your time to act. (thats the hardest, but better job your group do the better it will be )
7) Do not make fun stay seriious. (I dont mean do not have fun, just take it seriously. It is like in a film. If you look a comedy it is less atmospheric then a good made thriller. You get the idea?)
Use music. (If it is used right the atmosphere will multiply like in films)
9) rules are only something to help you out. The GM is always right and rules are less important then the story (to some extend).
10) Only play if you like to play. And have fun.

I hope that answers your question Lotu?
_________________
quote from Spaceballs:
Dark Helmet:[...] we were told to comb the desert, so we're combing it! [puts down bullhorn] Find anything yet?!
Soldier: Nothing yet, sir.

[nephros]

Yes, getting into the perfect Pen&Paper session is very, very difficult. However once you are in it is simply great.

What you need, apart from really good, expierienced and dedicated players, is discipline.
And it should be enforced by all members of the group.

For example, a really good player with a decent concept of their character would never feel the need to say "I pick up". That's because in the mind of a really good player the real self and the characters self are completely seperated. (It's a bit schizophrenic really.)

A good way of gettting there is rotating characters.
I once had a group where we would sit down and not create our characters one player at a time, but we were all together creating our party. And in the gaming sessions we would rotate our characters, so everyone played someone different every time.

This way, players are less attached to their characters and try more to advance the overall story and relationships of the party.
(And I think we can agree that the worst thing that can happen is a player playing a dream version of himself.)

A good DM with enough time to prepare is also a must. Well made handouts, a deep story background etc are a lot of work, but without them the game will always remain "on the table", will remain - well just pen, paper and dice.

I remember when I was playing BattleTech/MechWarrior (yes we combined RP and Tabletop, because either of those games are just plain without the other), and our (Inner Sphere) Battalion had made the first contact with Clan troops.
Whole units were simply devastated with firepower never before seen.

Our DM handed out 12-page secret-service dossiers complete with out-of-focus battlefield images of the enemy mechs, quickly compiled tactical analyses, transcripts of interviews with wounded MechWarriors and a collection of rumors who that new enemy might be.
One of the rumors described measly infantry being hit dead center with a PPC (the most powerful weapon at our disposal), which only stood up crawled up a BattleMech and weld themselves into your cockpit to kill you.
It was suggested that a technologically superior alien race was set out to destroy humankind. As of yet, not a single encounter with the new enemy had been victorious.

We, along with our MechWarrior characters, were trembling with fear for hours.
And it got worse. It always does.
_________________
Please put [SOLVED] in your topic if you are a moron.

[Lotu]

Yes, thank you gentlemen. You've given me things to consider and maybe I'll give pen&paper games a few more chances with different groups.

Perhaps the right people are there somewhere.
_________________
In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows and Gates?

I'm an evil homosexual communist.

[lostdave]

In my experience, people who larp are almost always better at the whole "getting properly into character, and staying there" thing - larp games pretty much force this on you, and the experience translates to sit-down games.

Lotu, from what you've said, I think your best option would be to find a small scale larp game - whatever setting - and join. There's usually one or two in any city, often attached to university unions, etc. Don't bother with the big fantasy games - they're little more than an excuse to get drunk in a field wearing a silly outfit unless you've been playing for years - fun, but not, it seems, what you're looking for.

[legine]

[nephros]

legine: Nichts einzuwenden
Yes sure, it'a matter of taste, personal preferences etc. I agree with you both really.

Anyway, Now that we've got the attention of both worlds, what are your favorite NWN servers to do some serious roleplaying?

I usually play on Aria, a very hard(core) world.
_________________
Please put [SOLVED] in your topic if you are a moron.

[legine]

I played only in singleplayer mode. So I can't realy talk of the multiplayer funktion.
Since I did only borrowed the game from a friend, I cant say much never finished the story, i think It got quite boring. But I tried very nice german Mods. some of them had realy good story lines.
Maybe I buy nwn sometime. I want to finish the Radiant I mod I started when I had to give the game back

But to be honest best multiplayer Computerrpg is World of Warcraft.
And I do not much for RPG there. It is not the place to do rpg in a Computer envoirement.

Cheers
Legine
_________________
quote from Spaceballs:
Dark Helmet:[...] we were told to comb the desert, so we're combing it! [puts down bullhorn] Find anything yet?!
Soldier: Nothing yet, sir.