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oblio
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:53 am    Post subject: A few random thoughts ... Reply with quote

I think this is a great idea but know nothing about coding for the web and don't have much in the way of other resources to contribute but I had a few random thoughts that I thought I might post. The software companies will do just about anything if they really think they'll make money off of it. A few things come to mind though as I think of it from the companies point of view:

1. While linux may have 13 million users, or whatever the previous posts claimed, it still only represents a very small percentage of desktops (sad but true). Now think of the factors that lead people to use linux on the desktop. It was mentioned that linux is big in India. That is true from what I have heard but why is it big in India? Is it their love of open source or is it because the average income of a desktop user (and their hardware) won't support the purchase of windows XP? If you can't afford windows, you probably can't afford $600 for the linux port of Photoshop.
2. You hear a lot of linux users clamoring for ports of some $600 app or some game you publish. But you also know that Linux users (this is a bit of a stereotype, but how far off is it really) tend to be ... political... about some things. Some of them approach their choice in window manager as part of some greater jihad. What's to stop them from voting multiple times so that 14 million users apparently swear they'll buy photoshop if it's ported.

My point here is that not only does the voice of this new website/movement have to be heard by the software companies, but it must be trusted. I know most of us are honest, but all it takes is one well meaning, but misguided, zealot who writes a script that votes 10 times every second in some poll to over inflate the numbers.

Some thoughts on solving this have occured to me. These are not solutions necessarily but I think this is something to think about early-on to maintain credibility:

1. Voters should have to belong to the site to vote, no anonymous voting.
2. As best as possible try to verify your voters and keep them to one account. Perhaps one of those things where you type in the word it shows you so you know nobody is auto-generating accounts.
3. Possibly (and I fear to say it but it would possibly help) charge a very nominal fee to belong. Like $2 for a lifetime privilege to vote. This would discourage people from having 120 voting accounts and also show the companies that we are willing to put our money where our mouth is.

Just a few thoughts. They may all be crap but I hope that atleast the heart of what I'm trying to say makes somebody think of something that will help. One more final, opinionated thought: It is really annoying to hear people whine that there are no ports to linux and to then complain about the quality of the ports they do get. My understanding (I may be wrong) is that the port of ut2k3 was primarily the work of one man in the company who pushed for it. If I went through that only to have people complain about it I don't know that I'd ever want to do it again. It's okay if you don't like it, then don't buy it but be grateful that somebody tried. And besides, ut2k3 came with the win version so no blood no foul :wink: .[/i]
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2003 5:55 am    Post subject: cycle Reply with quote

i am adicted to quake and to linux i bought original copy of the game as well as warcraft II battle.net edition the last is not working on linux.

i hate microsoft cuz they lame.

-Game developers like $$
-Linux gamers are about 200000-400000 users.
-Gamers world wide community is Huge

the question is weather Windowz user switch to linux if they will have their favirote game available on linux (native). I think they will.

let's say CounterStrike was working on linux that's mean 100,000 gamers for linux.
warcraft and starcraft can bring alot of gamers as well.

in order to suduce the game developer to make both linux and windows versions:

We should create a "fake popular games order Form with creadit card" (without charging) and count the money they could have done if they would developed an linux version of the game now.

let say that 1000 warcraft players ordered our fake warcraft3 copy in cost of 30$ each it's mean that blizzard can make 30000$ from linux port.

that way a game developer might know how much $$ he can gain from linux version of his game , and if it will worth him he will make the game for linux.

now we need to be trusted which mean charge all the fake forms and transfer the $$ to the game developer upon releaseing of the game.

just an idea
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I am Webmaster and willing to help.
i mange online gamers community http://quake.co.il it's got voting system on it i use XOOPS for the Community management.
check out xoops.org for info.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2003 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

puddpunk wrote:
We need to think of a swanky acronym.

Like LUSERS (Linux Users Software something something...) :D

I'll leave it to the collective Gentoo hive mind to create something appropriate. And I'll mull over it when I'm at uni tonight...


What about penguin-united.org

Mel

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2003 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: A few random thoughts ... Reply with quote

oblio wrote:
I think this is a great idea


Thanks go to Matija for the original idea.

oblio wrote:

My point here is that not only does the voice of this new website/movement have to be heard by the software companies, but it must be trusted. I know most of us are honest, but all it takes is one well meaning, but misguided, zealot who writes a script that votes 10 times every second in some poll to over inflate the numbers.


You should really think about joining the mailing list, we've already discussed a lot of potential problems like this.

Currently, for those of you who are not on the mailing list, we already have a domain name. ..or maybe I should just say that we have already picked out a "swank" domain name. It will be registered in a day or two.

We are accepting sudgestions for website design so if any of you are hot on this idea then feel free to join the mailing list and post a design concept, or maybe just offer some sudgestions on some of the designs we already have .... but please, please try to read at least one or two of the older emails first.. it will probably stop you from asking the same questions other have already asked..

Wow, geez... someone should write a FAQ or something eh? ;)
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2003 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: A few random thoughts ... Reply with quote

oblio wrote:

My point here is that not only does the voice of this new website/movement have to be heard by the software companies, but it must be trusted. I know most of us are honest, but all it takes is one well meaning, but misguided, zealot who writes a script that votes 10 times every second in some poll to over inflate the numbers.

1. Voters should have to belong to the site to vote, no anonymous voting.
2. As best as possible try to verify your voters and keep them to one account. Perhaps one of those things where you type in the word it shows you so you know nobody is auto-generating accounts.
3. Possibly (and I fear to say it but it would possibly help) charge a very nominal fee to belong. Like $2 for a lifetime privilege to vote. This would discourage people from having 120 voting accounts and also show the companies that we are willing to put our money where our mouth is.

that's just what we have been trying to solve in the past few days (or was it even weeks ...can't remember anymore)

the main problem with the user-bind polls is that there are not as pleasing to use, and there's always the scare that they might now what you are using/thinking/etc ...the last idea was (as far as i can remember, ghetto correct me, if needed) that we should use separate polls some anonymous for all sorts of stuff (=longer structured polls) and as for the one concerning what hw and sw you are using we would have a semi-anonymous poll that would ask of you a username (or your mail-address) and when you post it the system would if it would see that you have told it that you use more hw than a normal user does, first ask you if you are sure that you use that much hw, and then send a mail to us to reply to the guy, if he really owns -let's say 100 yamaha monitors
...still, that's not fixated yet
Quote:

Just a few thoughts. They may all be crap but I hope that atleast the heart of what I'm trying to say makes somebody think of something that will help. One more final, opinionated thought: It is really annoying to hear people whine that there are no ports to linux and to then complain about the quality of the ports they do get. My understanding (I may be wrong) is that the port of ut2k3 was primarily the work of one man in the company who pushed for it. If I went through that only to have people complain about it I don't know that I'd ever want to do it again. It's okay if you don't like it, then don't buy it but be grateful that somebody tried. And besides, ut2k3 came with the win version so no blood no foul :wink: .

well yes, that's how things usually work ...but that guy would have it a lot easier if he could just say: "check out this site, they have all the info you need in order to reconsider it!" ..just an example.

i'm too sleepy to write on ...sorry :( ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2003 1:34 pm    Post subject: IRC chat Reply with quote

Hi folks,

Im going to open up an IRC channel on irc.freenode.org for the Linux Awareness Organization

(yes, did I forget to mention that www.linuxawareness.org is going to be our domain? but it might not be up yet)

... but anyway, if your interested in this project then please stop by and say hello on channel #linuxawareness

--alex
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 9:22 am    Post subject: The Wheel... again? Reply with quote

There is already a place where you can submit rewuests/cast votes for linux porting of games. Try http://www.tuxgames.com/petitions/index.cgi?id=440705&nc=1046769423
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: The Wheel... again? Reply with quote

MeLassen wrote:
There is already a place where you can submit rewuests/cast votes for linux porting of games. Try http://www.tuxgames.com/petitions/index.cgi?id=440705&nc=1046769423


Thanks for pointing this out, but Im sure that if you've read our mailing list or even if you've just read this forum thread that you would see that what we are doing more than just "requests/cast votes for Linux porting of games."

I encourage you to join the mailing list.

Or you may just want to wait for a week or two and then join our forum, at which time we will be disbanding the mailing list due to the fact that it has become rather chaotic from all of the traffic :)
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:33 am    Post subject: What we need... Reply with quote

... is simple hassle-free Wine packages optimized for a specific game similar to Crossover.

Wine is a little bit complicated to install and configure, also some games will run with some type of Wine while others wont.

So the best thing to do would be IMO to provide a full package that installs into a directory and brings everything it needs, including Wine.

Ideally, you would unpack the package, run "run.sh" and the script would ask for the game CD, the game would be installed if needed, then run.

Edit:

The great thing about this approach would be that you could go to a game vendor and say: "Hey, just include this Linux script on the CD and you can put a "Linux compatible" sticker on your box". If the Wine/Linux version is included as "unsupported" there is few reason why a game vendor should not do it. The vendor doesn't even have to recompile.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oops.. sorry I just realized the irc channel is on irc.freenode.net NOT on irc.freenode.org

the channel itself is still #linuxawareness


thanks

-- Alex
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: What we need... Reply with quote

rs wrote:

The great thing about this approach would be that you could go to a game vendor and say: "Hey, just include this Linux script on the CD and you can put a "Linux compatible" sticker on your box". If the Wine/Linux version is included as "unsupported" there is few reason why a game vendor should not do it. The vendor doesn't even have to recompile.



Sounds like a good idea at first...

But when you think about it for more than two seconds you should start to get a nagging feeling in the back of your mind.

Thats because deep down I hope you would realize (at least on a subconscious level) that wine perpetuates the windows monopoly.

How can we even lobby for Linux as a viable alternative when absolutely zero games get ported to it (I know its not "absolutely zero" but its close).

Game makers will just continue to make games for "windows" and say to linux users "go use wine". So we end up having to pay for "windows" software, oh, and by the way... that means we get counted as "windows" users.

So even windows greatest threat is forced to support it by buying software written for "windows" ...does that sound like a good idea to you?

Do you think that telling people to buy "windows" software is the best way to help Linux?

Or do you just not really care if Linux turns into a viable option?

Because it _never_ will if Linux users continue to let themselves be forced to support windows (and end up getting counted as a windows user in the process) by buying its software.

This will _only_ stop when companys start coming out with ports for Linux at a descent rate (at least at the same rate that games come out for Mac).

But that wont happen if game companys think that Linux users are "happy" with a quick and dirty shortcut like "wine".

We shouldnt be happy with it. Every time we use wine we are supporting the windows Monopoply. We should tell all game vendors as well as all vendors of other major applications (and even major hardware vendor as well) that we are not happy.

Then we should tell "wine" to go to hell.

We should simply NOT BUY IT if its not written for Linux. (but who am I kidding.. right?)

well...

That is where LinuxAwareness.org will come into play.

Currently big vendors have no idea just how many Linux users have bought (for example) a copy of Warcraft III for "Windows" and are running it with wine (because they all got counted as "Windows" users), and they certainly have no clue how many _would_ have bought it if it had been released for Linux.

Well we are going to try to tell them what those numbers actually are.

And if its a large number... and we're hoping that it will be.. then we're going to say: "Hey! Get off your lazy buts and make a friggin port next time you friggin bastards!" (but maybe we'll get someone with a little more deplomacy than me to write the actual letter). 8)

ps. The paths we walk today may become the "super highway" of tomorrow.. so be careful when you take shortcuts through the bush.

-- Alex
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2003 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: What we need... Reply with quote

ghetto wrote:
rs wrote:

The great thing about this approach would be that you could go to a game vendor and say: "Hey, just include this Linux script on the CD and you can put a "Linux compatible" sticker on your box". If the Wine/Linux version is included as "unsupported" there is few reason why a game vendor should not do it. The vendor doesn't even have to recompile.



Sounds like a good idea at first...

But when you think about it for more than two seconds you should start to get a nagging feeling in the back of your mind.

Thats because deep down I hope you would realize (at least on a subconscious level) that wine perpetuates the windows monopoly.


I disagree.

Wine is the only way quickly overcoming the chicken-egg problem and END the windows domination.

Quote:

How can we even lobby for Linux as a viable alternative when absolutely zero games get ported to it (I know its not "absolutely zero" but its close).


Before we can expect native ports, we need users. Wine is a way to get users.

Quote:

Game makers will just continue to make games for "windows" and say to linux users "go use wine". So we end up having to pay for "windows" software, oh, and by the way... that means we get counted as "windows" users.


So instead of 100% of sales being counted as Windows-sales we have 100% minus unknown number of sales being counted as Windows-sales. I don't know what is your point.

Quote:

So even windows greatest threat is forced to support it by buying software written for "windows" ...does that sound like a good idea to you?


Yes, because the ONLY ALTERNATIVE would be that the user is forced to buy software written for Windows AND Windows itself.

So, YES it is a good idea because otherwise he would be FORCED to use Windows.

Quote:

Do you think that telling people to buy "windows" software is the best way to help Linux?


If the alternative is "sorry, but that doesn't run, tough luck" then yes, it indeed is the best way to help Linux.

I helped a friend use Linux and he used it as his only platform for over half a year.
Then he had to work from home for his company and they had a flash-application that didn't work in anything but IE.

Great, he is using Windows now, I guess that's great for you because otherwise he would have just use Wine for that single flash app.

Quote:

Or do you just not really care if Linux turns into a viable option?


I care very much.

But a viable option (as gaming platform) it becomes only with games.

Quote:

Because it _never_ will if Linux users continue to let themselves be forced to support windows (and end up getting counted as a windows user in the process) by buying its software.


Why?

Did Windows95 "never" get native games because it supported DOS? Did WindowsXP "never" get native games because it supported Win95?
Die PS2 "never" get native games because it supported PS1?

So please stop talking about "never".

The opposite is true: Win95 became a gaming platform *because* it supported DOS and PS2 is the dominating console *because* it ran PS1 games.

You have to get people on your platform *FIRST*, *THEN* can you expect native ports.

No, OS/2 was killed because it was made by a vendor in direct competition to PC-vendors, not because of good backwards-compatibility.

Quote:

This will _only_ stop when companys start coming out with ports for Linux at a descent rate (at least at the same rate that games come out for Mac).


And we all know what a great gaming platform the Mac is, so we see how well this strategy is working...

Actually a very good illustration of what happens if you don't have backwards compatibility.

Quote:

But that wont happen if game companys think that Linux users are "happy" with a quick and dirty shortcut like "wine".

We shouldnt be happy with it. Every time we use wine we are supporting the windows Monopoply. We should tell all game vendors as well as all vendors of other major applications (and even major hardware vendor as well) that we are not happy.

Then we should tell "wine" to go to hell.

We should simply NOT BUY IT if its not written for Linux. (but who am I kidding.. right?)


You seriously think that Linux gamers have anything to say in the market?

The sad truth is that there are so few Linux gamers that no gaming company cares about them being happy or not.

And without Wine few gamers will convert because you can't expect them to throw away all their current games.

Quote:

well...

That is where LinuxAwareness.org will come into play.

Currently big vendors have no idea just how many Linux users have bought (for example) a copy of Warcraft III for "Windows" and are running it with wine (because they all got counted as "Windows" users), and they certainly have no clue how many _would_ have bought it if it had been released for Linux.

Well we are going to try to tell them what those numbers actually are.

And if its a large number... and we're hoping that it will be.. then we're going to say: "Hey! Get off your lazy buts and make a friggin port next time you friggin bastards!" (but maybe we'll get someone with a little more deplomacy than me to write the actual letter). 8)

ps. The paths we walk today may become the "super highway" of tomorrow.. so be careful when you take shortcuts through the bush.

-- Alex


Sorry, but that will certainly fail.

And you even contradict yourself!

First - let's face it - there are not a large number.
Second, you essentially say: Wine made it possible that many Linux users bought Starcraft, so the gaming company will make a native Linux port.

So, you yourself imply (without knowing and without wanting) that only Wine made your whole initiative possible. Without Wine there would be exactly zero people using Starcraft on Linux and your whole initiative would be pretty pointless.

In fact we seem to share the same view:

We have to get gamers with Wine, *THEN* we can expect ports.

I just disagree that we are not even nearly enough yet. We need a better Wine and much more gamers on Linux. Then we will see native ports.

When Wine can adequately run games, we will see OEMs preinstalling Linux (because the MS tax takes a higher percentage of their revenue every year) and the number of Linux users explode.

It's easier to make two small steps (Windows -> Linux/Wine -> Linux) than take a giant leap.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You dont have to agree with me, but that wont make what I say any less correct.

Ive said this before, and I will say it again.

As long as Wine is popular, then the majority of game companys will not bother to port games to Linux.

The reasons behind that statement start to make a lot of sence once you take your head out of your ass.

1)Wine makes it so that certain game companys loose absolutely ZERO money even though they completely ignore Linux.

2)Wine makes it look like Linux users are happy to buy and run Windows applications.. after all Wine is a very large and very popular project.

3)Wine makes it look like there are far less Linux gamers than there truely are because Wine users buy games written for Windows ...which leads me to the fourth point.

4)Wine users buy Windows software. In the here and now that is a simple equasion... Wine users are discouraging vendors from supporting Linux by paying vendors money for non-Linux software.

EVERY TIME SOMEONE BUYS A WINDOWS PROGRAM THEY ARE DISCOURAGING VENDORS FROM WRITTING LINUX SOFTWARE.
(if you dont understand that then you havent thought hard enough)

Its that simple amigo.

(I had a much longer reply, where I answered all of your statements.. but it took me so long to write out that the session timed out and I lost everything.)
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ghetto wrote:
You dont have to agree with me, but that wont make what I say any less correct.

Ive said this before, and I will say it again.

As long as Wine is popular, then the majority of game companys will not bother to port games to Linux.

The reasons behind that statement start to make a lot of sence once you take your head out of your ass.


It's sad that you try to use "If you don't agree you are stupid" rhetoric.

Quote:

1)Wine makes it so that certain game companys loose absolutely ZERO money even though they completely ignore Linux.


Wrong.
They could stop supporting Linux via Wine which is far easier for them to do than port a new version which just won't happen without a userbase.

Quote:


2)Wine makes it look like Linux users are happy to buy and run Windows applications.. after all Wine is a very large and very popular project.


Wrong again.
Wine comes with many hassles and is still too incomplete/unstable to make me happy.
If Wine reaches the point where it's good enough and runs every Win32 flawlessly, I am happy, why shouldn't I be?

If the Win32-API becomes cross-platform and works flawlessly across both Linux and Windows, I don't have a problem with it.

If Linux can build a significant userbase, app-vendors will port it to something modern like Qt because it's much easier to use than the Win32-API. But even if Win32 were the perfect API I wouldn't have a problem with anybody using it as long as it works fine on Linux. Win32 app-compatibility is the only argument for Windows left, without that, Windows dies. And fast.

Quote:

3)Wine makes it look like there are far less Linux gamers than there truely are because Wine users buy games written for Windows ...which leads me to the fourth point.


This can hide maybe 0.02% of users, yes.
But if Linux becomes significant in the gaming market (significant enough to make it interesting - like 15%-20%) the game companies will have a reasonably good idea how many of their users use Linux.

Hell, they might just look at their Apache-logfiles, which is something I guarantee you they do right now.

Quote:

4)Wine users buy Windows software. In the here and now that is a simple equasion... Wine users are discouraging vendors from supporting Linux by paying vendors money for non-Linux software.


If the vendor includes a hassle-free Wine package, it becomes Linux software.

If the vendor supports it on Wine, it becomes supported Linux software.

Quote:

EVERY TIME SOMEONE BUYS A WINDOWS PROGRAM THEY ARE DISCOURAGING VENDORS FROM WRITTING LINUX SOFTWARE.


Argh.

The users gives a shit.

The user wants to run all his software, all other considerations are secondary.

If Linux can run all the software he wants, he will use it because it's more secure, cheaper and easier to maintain. For new software, he will prefer Linux software but will also buy Win32-software if it runs fine on Wine (and why shouldn't he?).

If Linux can't run all the software he wants, he will use Windows. For new software he will buy only Windows software.

And that's it. Period.

No significant number of users will run Linux when there is just one program it can't run but they want/have to run.

I also don't understand what's so evil about the Win32 API. It's just another API. Because of a couple of issues (mainly Microsoft controlling and changing it) programmers will always prefer a real crossplatform API for new projects. But for some old code I don't see what's wrong with using Wine, especially because when the old code has matured and is no longer subject to large changes you can create a very stable program. If you include a fixed Wine version, there is really not much that can go wrong.

We need backwards compatibility.

Quote:

(if you dont understand that then you havent thought hard enough)


I thought we could do without this childish namecalling in the Gentoo forums, seems like I was wrong.

It's very ironic actually, because you contriadict yourself several times, which doesn't really give you the authority to call others names.

You say you would like Linux to be like the Mac (no Win32 compatibility at all when it comes to games) but the Mac is the perfect example of a failed gaming platform!

You say that because of Wine, we can point on all these "would buy Linux version" - gamers. But without Wine these wouldn't exist, so even you as a Wine-hater would lose your single argument without Wine.

To summarize (and I hope this time you can quote this and comment on it):

We need to get a significant chunk (~15-20%) on the desktop, especially gaming before we can expect gaming companies to create cross-platform games.

Do you agree on that?

Because those users will surf on the vendor's page and will hopefully send in registration cards, the vendor will have a rough estimate of how many users use or would use his products on Linux. The < 1% of current Linux gamers won't get noticed but 10% or more certainly would be noticed.

Do you acknowldedge that?

Now we do have to somehow attract 15-20% of gamers, now tell me how you want to do that without Wine.

It's so damn obvious. YOU YOURSELF say that Wine already attracted gamers on Linux.

So where would we be without Wine? What would you say without Wine? Go to gaming companies and say: "No Linux user ever bought a game from you, but when you port it over, they will, promised. No gamers exist on Linux but they will convert to Linux, promised." and go to gamers and say: "Hey Linux runs only 2 games but more will come along, promised"?
This will not work

You also did not comment on the example I gave: A friend of mine was happily using Linux for half a year but was forced to Windows because he needed IE for a employer page.

And that's not a rare exception, that's the rule: Windows is used because there is just this or that little program that you need and can't use on Linux.

Quote:

(I had a much longer reply, where I answered all of your statements.. but it took me so long to write out that the session timed out and I lost everything.)


Don't you have a "back" button or cookies?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd rather have native ports of games than running games under wine. Wine is slow, and buggy, and if we ask the game developers for a linux port, we are told to use wine. I don't see how that's going to help us get more linux games.
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rs
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blurpy wrote:
I'd rather have native ports of games than running games under wine. Wine is slow, and buggy, and if we ask the game developers for a linux port, we are told to use wine. I don't see how that's going to help us get more linux games.


You and ghetto seem to life in a dream-world in which we have the choice between "native-ports" and "Wine".

That's just not true.

We have the choice between "nothing at all" and "Wine".
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rs wrote:
Blurpy wrote:
I'd rather have native ports of games than running games under wine. Wine is slow, and buggy, and if we ask the game developers for a linux port, we are told to use wine. I don't see how that's going to help us get more linux games.


You and ghetto seem to life in a dream-world in which we have the choice between "native-ports" and "Wine".

That's just not true.

We have the choice between "nothing at all" and "Wine".


we ALL know that ...that's WHY we are trying our best to ACHIEVE this ..no use just giving up ...at least as i (and a few other people) see it ...if you think it's not makable, think so, but let other people think what they want ...especially those who are willing to give away their time and money to try to make everyone's life easier
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hook wrote:
rs wrote:

You and ghetto seem to life in a dream-world in which we have the choice between "native-ports" and "Wine".

That's just not true.

We have the choice between "nothing at all" and "Wine".


we ALL know that ...that's WHY we are trying our best to ACHIEVE this ..no use just giving up ...at least as i (and a few other people) see it ...if you think it's not makable, think so, but let other people think what they want ...especially those who are willing to give away their time and money to try to make everyone's life easier


I'm not giving up at all.

I just say (and nobody has commented on that) that we need to gain users first before we can expect any support from 3rd partys.

Wine is useful in achieving that goal.

Fighting Wine is counterproductive because it drives the users back to (or keeps the users on) Windows.

It's a fact (and also nobody has commented on that fact) that you can only use Linux if all needed applications run on it.

Just one single application not running can drive a user to Windows.

That's why Wine is so important.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2003 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rs wrote:

I'm not giving up at all.

I just say (and nobody has commented on that) that we need to gain users first before we can expect any support from 3rd partys.

that's true, and we know it ...you can read form the article that IMO the biggest step would have to make the linux community itself to show herself and to show why (=we) deserve ports

Quote:

Wine is useful in achieving that goal.

Fighting Wine is counterproductive because it drives the users back to (or keeps the users on) Windows.

It's a fact (and also nobody has commented on that fact) that you can only use Linux if all needed applications run on it.

Just one single application not running can drive a user to Windows.

That's why Wine is so important.

hmmm.... interesting concept ...care to make it more clear?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2003 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hook wrote:
rs wrote:

I'm not giving up at all.

I just say (and nobody has commented on that) that we need to gain users first before we can expect any support from 3rd partys.

that's true, and we know it ...you can read form the article that IMO the biggest step would have to make the linux community itself to show herself and to show why (=we) deserve ports


Well I still don't see it happening without a much larger userbase.



Quote:

Quote:

Wine is useful in achieving that goal.

Fighting Wine is counterproductive because it drives the users back to (or keeps the users on) Windows.

It's a fact (and also nobody has commented on that fact) that you can only use Linux if all needed applications run on it.

Just one single application not running can drive a user to Windows.

That's why Wine is so important.

hmmm.... interesting concept ...care to make it more clear?


Wine is backwards compatibility.
Wine is an upgrade path that people can follow.

This is very important when switching platforms.

Without Wine, it will take a very long time until Linux gets critical mass on the desktop.

If we had hassle-free Wine packages optimized for the most popular games and Win32 applications (like Photoshop), we would get millions of new users in a very short time.

I certainly won't stop you from doing advocacy work at gaming companies, but I don't think it will do anything useful and the energy would be better spent elsewhere (helping users, writing documentation, programming).
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2003 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rs wrote:
hook wrote:
rs wrote:

I'm not giving up at all.

I just say (and nobody has commented on that) that we need to gain users first before we can expect any support from 3rd partys.

that's true, and we know it ...you can read form the article that IMO the biggest step would have to make the linux community itself to show herself and to show why (=we) deserve ports


Well I still don't see it happening without a much larger userbase.


first we have to set up the whole website, then we'll try to get as much users as we can
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know where you are hosting linuxawareness.org, but I have a rackshack (rackshack.net) box with space / bandwidth available.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am hosting linuxawareness.org. thanks for your offer though.
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

port001 wrote:

I think the future for Linux games is with WineX.



OK - hope my very first post on this board isn't so controversial that everyone hates me straight away, but winex is the death of Linux gaming. There have been several occasions when a games company has refused to port their game to linux because they have been told that it will/might run under winex

I now only run native games on linux - and there are plenty of good ones and some good ones in the pipeline
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phunni I don't think you're completely right about that. I agree that winex doesn't help native ports, but I also think that it will not kill them all together. It will only slow down the progression to making linux ports.

When the number of people using linux is high enough, and the game companies see just how many people are using it. They will eventualy want to have their games working in linux. But just "working" is not enough. If their game even runs in winex it will probably suffer at least a partial performance hit, not to mention that for their users to play their game they must also buy another product (winex). Both of these are things that the companies won't enjoy.

If, and when, the game playing linux user base grows to be large enough, the game companies will begin porting their new releases (dispite winex compatability). Or at least I hope so. :D
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