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idl
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What I wouldn't do to see Photoshop and Warcraft 3 in Linux.


Happy Birthday?
http://www.transgaming.com/screenshots.php?gameid=556

:D
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 2:49 am    Post subject: my 2 cents... Reply with quote

I just read the post on newsforge.com and I think its a great idea.. there is so much that we could do with this and really many many good things could come out of it.. probably including several things that currently are not forseen..

I imagine that there is probably somewhere around 1,000,000 linux users.. Does anyone really know how many people in China or India are using linux? Lets not forget the dual-booters and people that are forced to use Windows at work but would like to use linux if they had the option.. 1,000,000 users is just my guess but i bet its in the ballpark.

Somehow we must mobilize this growing force..

First of all I would like to say that (read:personal opinion) Linux has proven right from the start that it does not need high profile vendors... but why would we want to shut them out if we have the choice to possibly include them.

THATS where this project will (hopefully) fill the gap. What I would like to see happen is that this project become a HUGH polling site for apps and hardware to find out what the Linux community is actually using, to do this properly though we would need to inform lots of people... Im talking BIG TIME advertising, ALL of the news forums, even Microsoft based news channels would need to hear about this. If we found out which applications and hardware are truely popular across the board with the Linux community then we could forward that information onto the appropriate vendors as one united group.
Perhaps even with monthly status reports to the vendors?

We could have links from certain polls for popular applications or hardware to the coresponding Linux projects that are making an effort to get that software or hardware to run on Linux.

For drivers... PERHAPS if vendors new that the community activley writes its own drivers they might be inclined to help these projects along, which would probably be better for us and easier for them than if they tried to write the driver entirely on their own, because if they did that then they would need more man power and in the end they would probably choose to close-source the driver.. where as if they choose to contribute to our efforts instead they could utilize the volunteer opensource developer community already inplace. This would turn out to be better for us not just because we would get better drivers but because the vendors would need to abide by whatever license the project already has in place. 8)

For applications.. PERHAPS if vendors see that wine or win4lin or whatever has a HUGH user base and is busy with trying to get things to run on Linux they might be inclined to help out, or maybe just release some documentation that would help these projects along.. wouldnt that be great if they started to release specific documentation on how certain tricky parts of their applications work so that Trasngaming or Wine or whatever could make emulators that work better???

Would you like to see apps run natively on Linux? probably..
Would I? yep sure..
Is it likely that no matter what we do certain vendors are just going to continue to write apps only for Windows, and force anyone who wants to run them on Linux to use an emulator? without a doubt.
But...
If we inform them as a group that we use their software and point them to the emulator groups and ask them for documentation or assistance or whatever.. then who knows. Some vendors value users, maybe these ones might start lending a hand to the emulator groups.. and then as the user base continues to grow perhaps someday something wonderful and unexpected will happen.
(Id just like to say this one more time, Linux doesnt need vendor support. Would we take it if we got it? You bet we would!!)

..now i know that maybe these dont sound like mind blowing or world shattering victorys for Linux.. but Ive noticed a certain trend in the world of Linux that reminds me of when a snowball starts rolling down a hill. If we could just start a few more snowballs rolling down a few more hills by mobilizing the linux community to provide feedback that would better EDUCATE vendors.. who knows.. it might turn out to be mind blowing and earth shattering after all. ;)
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Happy Birthday?
http://www.transgaming.com/screenshots.php?gameid=556


Yeah I know it works under WineX, but I spent $70 on the Warcraft 3 collectors edition I don't have money for a subscription to some emulator. I don't even have a job.

Still, I don't want to get this thread off topic, and I really hope we can succeed at getting companies to recognize Linux as a new market for gaming!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crimson wrote:

My only problem with selling Linux or Windows versions of games is that currently if I have a Windows game I can maybe run it in Linux with Wine and this is perfectly legal. But if I just bought a Linux version of a game, what would I do if I wanted to play it in Windows, because chances are it would run better in Windows. Run out and buy the Windows version too? I think that a license for a game should be 1 for COMPUTER not per operating system.


don't see why the game would run better in windows...
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't either, but Windows runs a ton faster for me than linux does unfortunately.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crimson wrote:
I don't either, but Windows runs a ton faster for me than linux does unfortunately.

well, you only need to tune it :) ...that's why i love it so much ...it's so flexible

ghetto:
1. we're around 18 million!!! (in the whole world) 8O
2. all your ideas about the page (.org) are fine and i'll remember them ;)
3. that idea of yours about the drivers is brilliant!! :D
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks hook.

I know my idea about vendors helping the emulator groups sounds a bit off at first but I did put a lot of thought into it. Im not trying to say that I wouldnt like to see vendors like Adobe or whatever write a native Linux version of "program X" That would be great if they did!!
I just dont think its going to happen for a while. Even if we do send them 18million requests! :D

For the time being though I think that there is a POSSIBILITY that if we send them enough user info to show that we are a sizable group and ask them for any help they can give in getting "program X" to run on Linux they might be inclined to lend a developer or two to an existing channel.. and the only existing channel i see for applications at the moment are the emulator groups like wine or whatever.
And so I took it one step further and hypothesized that maybe after the vendor is involved for a while and as they see the interest and popularity of program X continue to grow within our market (imagine how much more popular program X would be if it could run on linux as fast as under windows just by installing that new version of wine that vendor X helped to make possible ;) ) ..then maybe they will decide that its finally feasable to port "program X" to Linux and quit forcing users to pay the "wine tax".

but hey! if they look at the numbers and say "holy cow! We need to port this to linux FAST!" then id be first in line to kick my own ass for even sudgesting the emulator route.

The other thing id like to add is that this isnt an all or nothing situation.. just because vendor X might say "screw you! we hate Leenix" ...that doesnt matter because maybe vendor Y or vendor Q will say "holy cow! this is great!" Basically I think there are enough hardware and software vendors out there that just by the law of averages alone this project could be wildly sucsessful.
However before we take over the world, first we need a community web portal so we can start bringing user data into focus.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hook wrote:
irrevenant: you have some points there :) ...i'm not at all suggesting that we should waste talent, but i think that THOSE apps and games who ARE wanted should be ported at the same time as the win version ...that's why i suggested this .org, not because i want every app and game to be ported, that's utopic!!

btw: i prefer frozen-bubble, trackballs, armagetron...(pity that tuxracer closed its source) over most closed games and just can't wait for epiar, adonthell and planeshift to be fully playable :) and i prever OOo and Gimp over MSOffice and PhotoShop anytime (have them even installed on my long-dead win-account)

...but some people DO need/want those apps and for those (who are not few!) i think this .org would be a nice help

...and most of all, there's always the problem with drivers for more "unstandard" devices (like lemark, umax scanners, et al.) and software/plugins most users world-wide use (flash, real etc) ...some of them are hard to get, they get out late, unstable, or don't at all ...ok, there's always the "let's do it by ourselves. we don't need them!" option, but wouldn't it be a lot easier to let the original developper port it? ...i surely think so

btw: check out newsforge.org ..they have my article up and in just 2 days it got cca. 70 comments :) ...we may get somewhere soon

btw2: i just got an offering for up to 1GB webspace and a domain-name for free for our .org ...that would rock! ...now we still need a name (oh, yeah, and antonik, how's the page doing so far, interested in being one of the main admins of the page on that server? does anyone know how to make structured polls?)
yea sure. im intrested. i dont know any cgi or php scripting (never really needed) so somebody else can do that.
i am busy these days with lots of homeworks and other schoolstuff so the page hasent changed so far. but it will.
can you make a list of what the links on the left column will be and about what?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

antonik, i think it's best you contact the guy who made me that offer ...i'll pm you his mail :)
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have some experience with perl/mysql websites, I'd be interested in helping but I just hope that your going to get someone who will actually design the process instead of just hacking together a website and crossing our fingers... (:D all of the details like normalizing database tables and whatnot should be decided before the interface or the rest of the site is designed)
I would be interested in helping with the design phase as well but I would need about 3 weeks before I could start on it because Im busy with work and going to school.. and I have another non-school project that Im also working on at the moment but it should be wraped up in a couple weeks which will give me enough free time to help. (i hope ;))
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ghetto wrote:
I have some experience with perl/mysql websites, I'd be interested in helping but I just hope that your going to get someone who will actually design the process instead of just hacking together a website and crossing our fingers... (:D all of the details like normalizing database tables and whatnot should be decided before the interface or the rest of the site is designed)
I would be interested in helping with the design phase as well but I would need about 3 weeks before I could start on it because Im busy with work and going to school.. and I have another non-school project that Im also working on at the moment but it should be wraped up in a couple weeks which will give me enough free time to help. (i hope ;))


i'm thinking about making a sourceforge project out of this ...this way we'll be able to comunicate with eachother via a mailing-list and forums etc. ...nope, can't do, we're technically not open-source :( ...dang, we need some other mailing-list

i'm in a very similar situation at the moment, so it's still going to sleep for some time ;)
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hook wrote:
irrevenant: you have some points there :) ...i'm not at all suggesting that we should waste talent, but i think that THOSE apps and games who ARE wanted should be ported at the same time as the win version ...that's why i suggested this .org, not because i want every app and game to be ported, that's utopic!!

btw: i prefer frozen-bubble, trackballs, armagetron...(pity that tuxracer closed its source) over most closed games and just can't wait for epiar, adonthell and planeshift to be fully playable :) and i prever OOo and Gimp over MSOffice and PhotoShop anytime (have them even installed on my long-dead win-account)

...but some people DO need/want those apps and for those (who are not few!) i think this .org would be a nice help

...and most of all, there's always the problem with drivers for more "unstandard" devices (like lemark, umax scanners, et al.) and software/plugins most users world-wide use (flash, real etc) ...some of them are hard to get, they get out late, unstable, or don't at all ...ok, there's always the "let's do it by ourselves. we don't need them!" option, but wouldn't it be a lot easier to let the original developper port it? ...i surely think so


I can see your position, and it has merit, but I can't shake the feeling that if a project like this were around 5 years ago we might not have projects like the GIMP, Evolution, etc.

Immediately after your reply to me is one by a bloke stating how great it would be to have Photoshop and Warcraft III on Linux. And it would be. But then no-one would bother creating open-sourced/free software Linux equivalents.

It would be a lot easier to let the original developer port it. But at the end of the day, that leaves you reliant on the original developer. Your example of non-standard hardware demonstrates the point. Take for example Nvidia's video drivers. They've provided a binary-only driver, and so far my graphics card works quite well. But if we have any problems we have to wait for them to patch it on their terms and they can, at any time, just decide to no longer continue providing support - or go out of business (my Aureal2 soundcard can attest to that!).

Look at what happened to Loki. Now, I happen to think they made some poor business decisions, but there are a lot of factors working against commercial games in Linux, and it could happen to anyone.

On the other hand, if the community creates it's own graphics engines, games, etc., even if the original project dies, the code and data goes back into the community. All we really need is one well written and documented good quality Quake3-style game, and dozens of other projects from Tribes2 to Deus Ex2 equivalents will spring from it.

A port of Quake3, OTOH, is basically a dead-end that leaves us temporarily sated, and reliant on the next fix. We can't build upon it, we can't even patch it - it's dead wood once we're finished with it.

If we like Warcraft 3, then, as a community, then we need to develop a Warcraft 4 equivalent (why aim backwards?). If we like Photoshop, we need to figure out where The GIMP is lacking and bring it up to snuff.

Linux and open source/free software has the potential to surpass Windows games. We have greater possibilities for reuse - every project we make can build on the code and data of every project that's come before. But not if every project that's come before is a port from Windows owned by a proprietary company.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you have quite some really good points there ...i'm pretty happy that i posted that idea of mine in its early stage, i got back so much feedback, that from that idea we could really make a great .org!

you hava a point that we should first look at open-sourced projects and then start to bug software companies. i think this would also fit in this .org ...i had a talk with some other guy who are interested in this idea and we got some great ideas using all our minds. and yours would fit in just perfectly. we would have a great benefit if we aim for open-sourced apps before commercial ones. i think the (for now) ideal solution would be that every contributer to this .org would get his/her own username and password and then write what hw and sw he uses, what kind of hw and sw he would like to use etc. etc. ...and he/she could contribute to forums, separate threads/projects etc. this could really work!

irrevenant: would you like to join us? ...we would need someone like you
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ooo, ooo!

i can help, i can help! i'll pm you the details, hook.

ryan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points irrevenant.
I understand how you feel, that if this project existed 5 years ago we might not have evolution or whatever.. and I agree with you in that respect.. just like imagine what if Windows 3.1 was opensource when it came out... or what if Windows 95 was opensource when it came out... :o would Linux even exist today??

But I think that the thing we need to remember is that Windows does exist and yet Linux has not only survived but it has also thrived.. so it stands to reason that even if proprietary version of software exist ...like a version of photoshop for Linux, then opensource applications like Gimp or "program X" will likewise continue to survive.

Will it make it harder for small opensource applications, that are just starting out, to survive? Probably, but thats just a little thing called competition. As Linux popularity continues to increase competition will increase.. but so will userbase! ..which makes competition easier. So its a toss up.

The Linux community doesnt need vendors if you ask me. We would manage to get by without their support although it would be harder, but we could do it... BUT some people really like the applications that certain vendors make, and even if there was an opensource alternative some people would still rather use the porprietary version of "program X" because they like it and dont mind paying for it. Thats called preference.

This project wants to bring more options to Linux, Linux is about being open and non-restrictive... fredom eh? We want to satisfy the preference's of more people. Our goal should be to become a viable alternative for everyone, not just the for the hackers who started this snowball back in 1991.

We DO want an opensource version of Warcraft IV!!!

But we also want who ever makes Warcraft to know weather or not, based on numbers and facts, that if they port Warcraft IV to Linux it would suvive and bring them revenue .. or not, and that goes the same for any application that users want.. or hardware for that matter.

We should not try to force people to write software by restricting their options.. "Hey Listen! if you want Warcraft IV then you better start coding!" :D:D ..that would kind of suck for people who dont know how to code dont u think?


... you make an excelent point about the nvidia graphics driver. I deffinitly hear what your saying 8)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:03 am    Post subject: [b]WE NEED A MAILING LIST.[b] Reply with quote

Quote:
we should first look at open-sourced projects and then start to bug software companies. i think this would also fit in this .org


This would bring up a bit of a problem in some ways.. after all how many opensource versions of a "drawing" program does Linux have? 5? 10? ..i dont know exactly but its a large number if you count the ones still in an early stage of development. Ok lets say that we have "Program X" like photoshop, and there are 5 opensource attempts to copy it. I think all we should do is just put small links to _each_ of them on the "Please Port Photoshop to Linux" page, and label them as "Opensource Alternatives to proprietary bloatware ;)"

...but on the other hand I dont think that we should just say: "oh well... there are already 5 opensource projects that try to copy photoshop lets not bother to bug adobe about giving us a port."

Quote:
i think the (for now) ideal solution would be that every contributer to this .org would get his/her own username and password and then write what hw and sw he uses, what kind of hw and sw he would like to use


I think we might be able to do it better than that.

I propose that we _dont_ have any user name or passwords. The reasons are because its not nessisary.
Here is an example of how it could work: Lets say user "X" has 5 computers. Each of them have the Intel Etherpro100 network card. He comes to our website and fills out the anonymous form that says "I use this network card: |dropdown list| and I have this many of them: |number|" ..and then at the end of the month he sells his five computers and buys five different computers, these new ones have a different network card. He is still going to use these machines for linux so he comes back to our site and fills out the form again but with differnt data.
So at the end of the month he has used Linux on 10 machines.. 5 have one network card and 5 have a different network card. He gave us 10 votes for two versions of network card. At the end of the month we add up all the data for network cards.. divide it into specific vendors and forward the info to the vendors.

The same goes for video games.. lets say user "X" buys Warcraft III, he is a good little Linux user so he comes to our site and fills out the anonymous form.. "I use this game: |dropdown list|." ...well he plays it for two weeks and finishes it and goes out and buys another game, so he comes back to our site and fills out the form again. One week later, (obviously a game addict :D) he has finished that game and buys another, comes back to our site AGAIN and fills out the form.. so at the end of the month that user _alone_ has given us 3 votes for 3 different games.
Now at the end of the month we add up all the game vote totals.. lets just say that 500 votes for Warcraft III came in this month. We forward that info to the people who make Warcraft and say "Hey guys.. we had five hundred people come in and register telling us that they use winex to play Warcraft III on Linux.. What are you going to do to help these users? We would really appreciate it if you would: (fill in the blank)"

So what im trying to say is i dont think user logins are nessisary.. it would only make it tuffer for people to send us information (they would have to remember a password.. and who wants to have to remember another password?). Also we wouldnt really know if they are keeping their info up to date or not. And what happens if they play warcraft and then finish it and stop playing.. would they then login and delete it from their personal list of applications that they want to see ported to Linux?

All we need is a way to cast a vote, we then compile the votes each month.. and roll the totals.. and then forward the info to the vendors.. so lets say next month we get 750 votes for Warcraft III, at the end of the month we say to the people who make Warcraft: "Hey this month we had 750 *new* people come to our website to register a vote because they use winex to play Warcraft III on Linux. Our rolling total is now 1250 Linux users that have played Warcraft III. What are you going to do to help these users? We would really appreciate it if you would: (fill in the blank with an appropriate request)"

...just an idea
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

good news :)

the articel you wrote hook, has been translated by some guy named "mattias" to swedish and publicated on magazineonline.se
and a "news"-articel on www.gnuheter.org recieved nothin but good response (so far). gnuheter is like the swedish ITpolicits portal, its a very large site...
the translation is very good to :)

a anonymous guy commented the news articel on gnuheter.org and said something like "companies withdraw themself from creating apps for linux, or porting them becouse there are now standard guidlines how to make an 'installprogram', should it be rpm or deb?..".....

http://www.magazine.online.se/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=357
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i knew about the post in magazine.online.se from Mattias, he mailed me :) ...but for gnuther i didn't know :wow: ...man, we're getting some publicity already :D

i visited both, but due to the fact that i never learned swedish i could understand very little :]
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2003 2:53 am    Post subject: just in case... Reply with quote

For those of you who didnt get the email... a mailing list has now been set up.

Feel free to sign up and participate.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lcsp/
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2003 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hook wrote:
you have quite some really good points there ...i'm pretty happy that i posted that idea of mine in its early stage, i got back so much feedback, that from that idea we could really make a great .org!


See, what you did there was to open source the idea. Worked well, huh? :)

hook wrote:

irrevenant: would you like to join us? ...we would need someone like you


What would you want me to do? I'm teaching myself coding and art in order to better contribute to the community (and because they're cool :)), but I'm not very good at either of them yet. :oops:

BTW, one constructive criticism re: your discussion on Newsforge: 'commercial' and 'proprietary' are different things, and few groups are as aware of this as the free software community. Using the two interchangeably is a good way to get into pointless arguments, and lose respect from people who might otherwise be sympathetic.

Short version: 'commercial' means someone makes money from it, 'proprietary' means someone witholds some or all rights to it. It's entirely possible (and common) to have commercial software that's not proprietary (eg. Redhat) and vice versa (eg. Windows Media Player).

Different people have different feelings about different combinations, so it's best to be sure everyone's on the same page.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2003 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what you could do? for one, your ideas are great for what we need. and it's always greaet to have someone who doesn't have exactly the same idea as you do on a project.

thanks for the clearance of the diff between commercial and proprietary. ...i know i was maybe a bit harsh in some posts. that's because of my lack of sleep and too much troubles in the last time :(

irrevenant, you should join the mailing list, if you haven't yet :) ...i think the best thing would be to move all the discusions (for all who are interested) there.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i could help out with some geek php/mysql/brainfuck ;) skills, if needed.
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Markus Nigbur
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hook
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 23 Oct 2002
Posts: 1398
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

join the team ;)

ghetto posted a link to the mailing list a few posts higher ;)
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tea+free software+law=hook

(deep inside i'm still a tux's little helper)
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puddpunk
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Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 681
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2003 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We need to think of a swanky acronym.

Like LUSERS (Linux Users Software something something...) :D

I'll leave it to the collective Gentoo hive mind to create something appropriate. And I'll mull over it when I'm at uni tonight...
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ninja
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Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Posts: 26
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2003 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve though of this before too I might be able to help out with getting a site hosted.

I can offer a sub domain, 50mb, mySQL, PHP and email addresses. I would like a small hosted by image displayed somewhere on the site. But there would be no other adds of any kind.
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