| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
occ
Apprentice
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 202
|
 Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:19 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Pythonhead wrote: |
| Quote: |
now that we've read his account of the events, i for one believe they're completely justified. but this is, of course, only one side of the story, and i know i'm not the only one who would like to hear the other. but until devrel provides an explanation addressing the accusations Ciaran has voiced against them i'm 100% behind the man. |
The accusations Ciaran voiced against them is an entirely separate issue and the relatively small number of developers who care about it are having a discussion about it.
|
That would be very unfortunate if so few devs are concerned about protecting the tree against obvious and blattant mistakes.
I'm not a gentoo dev, but I am a dev, I even make a living at it. And if Ciarian account regarding the tree is even remotely true (heck, all I have right know is His side of the story), there is definitively some name-calling waranted here.
If I were to check-in sources that couldn't even compile, many people would call me name, and if I do that too often I will get fired, not the guy(s) who called me name. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
occ
Apprentice
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 202
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Pythonhead wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | also, mentioning that a non-Gentoo kernel is crap will get you suspended 11 months later. |
I don't think even Ciaran would try to convince anyone that was true. He was suspended after sending an obnoxious email to the list after being warned to stop being obnoxious.
Its unfortunate it had to come to this, but the policy on etiquette doesn't leave much room to argue:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=3&chap=2 |
you mean this part:
"# If you are a developer with operator powers, you must not abuse them - if you have a disagreement with a user resolve the issue peacefully and do not resort to kicking them or even kickbanning them unless the situation is really severe and other developers approve of critical measures.
"
Beside every 'policy on xxxxx' always has room to argue. Policy are here to help not to blindly rule, especially when they start by "These suggestions are designed to be an easy-to-follow guide.." instead of "We the people..." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
occ
Apprentice
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 202
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sven Vermeulen wrote: | | loki99 wrote: |
why isn't there some kind of counter statement from devrel that clears things up?
|
Because they're smart enough to let things be instead of making the entire thread a flamefest beyond what comp.os.linux.advocacy is used to dealing with.
Really, there will always be individuals who believe an action is valid and others who think it is it. The purpose for having several developers in charge of devrel is to have a common decision that's not based on a single individual's opinion. |
Basically what you describe is like the supreme court handing out an 'opinion' without the text that goes with it... and without making it public for that matter.
As an ousider, why would I want to consider working for such an opaque organisation ? Like most people out there, I don;t know what happened. All I know is : I used to use a nice and very well done manual that suddenly disappeard, digging a bit I learn about a dev being banned - which apparently was the main author of the said documentation. deiggin a bit more, I find his side of the story, and on the other hand not a single word from these powerfull 'offcal', that according to you act in the name of the good of the community, based on a large and wide consensus.
If that is true, then how come this has to be so secret ?
If that is true, then how come the points made where not addressed ? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mcspiff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 109
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| OCC, try to not clutter the forums with triple posts like the one above. That could be easily combined into one post with three sections. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
occ
Apprentice
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 202
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mcspiff wrote: | | OCC, try to not clutter the forums with triple posts like the one above. That could be easily combined into one post with three sections. |
Sorry...
I didn't anticipate three post. I kind of commented as I went throught the 7 pages of this thread. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mcspiff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 109
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Fair enough. Now, trying to take this thread back on track ( ) Ive noticed that in his avatar Ciaran is no longer listed as a dev, does this mean he's gone for good? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pythonhead
Developer
Joined: 16 Dec 2002
Posts: 1801
Location: Redondo Beach, Republic of Calif.
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| occ wrote: |
That would be very unfortunate if so few devs are concerned about protecting the tree against obvious and blattant mistakes.
|
You (non-devs) have just as much concern and ability to protect the tree as I do. We can file a complaint. Maybe Ciaran will tell us why he wouldn't file a complaint against these people some day. Its kind of hard for any of us to file a complaint when we have no first-hand knowledge about it or even second-hand since he never gave us enough info. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
occ
Apprentice
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 202
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Pythonhead wrote: |
You (non-devs) have just as much concern and ability to protect the tree as I do. We can file a complaint. Maybe Ciaran will tell us why he wouldn't file a complaint against these people some day. Its kind of hard for any of us to file a complaint when we have no first-hand knowledge about it or even second-hand since he never gave us enough info. |
Again, I have only one side of the story, so I may very well be mis-informed, but what in http://www.firedrop.org.uk/observations.html , section "Development? What Development?" , is factually incorrect or even pure invention ?
we (non-gentoo-devs) have absolutely no says in granting commit right to the tree. you (gentoo-dev) have at least a say, and some of you do have the authority.
So either, this particular (ex)gentoo-dev lied and/or blew out of proportion a minor 'oops' that never really affected the base, or he is raising legitimate and serious questions.
Please bear in mind that I am in no commenting on this specific individual, or any other involved in ... whatever it is that fulled this. I don't know him, nor have I interacted with him, either in good or bad.
I discovered gentoo less than a year ago. I played with it on my own machines for a while and was very impressed by portage and in general the easy and consistent way to administer a machine with gentoo. I started a project to migrate every dev platform and some server to gentoo (from a mix of Windows, RedHat, Suse). That was implemented last month, without much trouble I might add.
I tried to protect myself against 'accident' in portage by mirroring in a staging area which I use to validate new version before I make them accessible to the rest of the lab. I don't interact much with gentoo-dev because I usually don't like to come with problem if I don't have a solution, and right know my skill set in portage is not good enough, yet, to do so. So I quietly work with what you guys kindly produce. If it works, good. if it doesn't, I either work around it or without it.
That being said, I do think that being dubbed 'gentoo-dev' comes with some responsibilities, and if half of what ciaranm said in the section sus-mentioned is true, then you have obviously some dev that don't take these responsibilities at hart, or are unfit for the duty. That concern me because I made the 'bold' move of bringing, in a fairly conservative old-school environment, a unconventional distribution. It has been possible because the non-gentoo-dev that I am, has put his lead software architect weight behind the project.... and little event like that, and more importantly, the way it is handled, make me wonder how badly I might be blindsided on this issue and if I should prepare for plan B.
All that being said, I read, in this thread and elsewhere, that you (collectively gentoo dev and admin) are working to improve the process. Good, let's wait and see how it unfold. But the idea that 'good' PR consist of hiding the mess under the carpet is a time proved method to hit the wall. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ferringb
Retired Dev
Joined: 03 Apr 2003
Posts: 357
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| occ wrote: | | So either, this particular (ex)gentoo-dev lied and/or blew out of proportion a minor 'oops' that never really affected the base, or he is raising legitimate and serious questions. |
Gotta say, I'm pretty sick of hearing the OSX crap. That and the fact a dev made a screwup in eutils (dumb screwup which happens unfortunately); nevermind that the dev offered to resign, which wasn't accepted, and occured arround 4 months ago but still is referenced as if it occured every other day. Dev in question made a mistake, one mistake doesn't warrant several months of harassment on a single mistake compared to a large amount of good work. Warrants a damned good nuggie for making the mistake, and a rather nasty slap if they made the same mistake twice (they haven't). So... that example is a bit off, since it was a rarity; screwups of that sort rarely happen, and no one to my knowledge has ever made a screw up on that level twice (this is also ignoring the fact the borkage in question was in the tree for all of an hour if I recall correctly).
See, one thing that gets old about this "waah, things keep getting broke" is that the examples brought up are always pretty much the same ones, over and over.
Something to note; ciaranm broke the tree bad enough that cvs->rsync was turned off for 4 hours. In other words, the rsync tree was disabled while the mess was cleaned up- it was too badly screwed up from a dep standpoint to allow users to even see it. He got bit by a tool having a bug. Shit happens, I'm honestly not blaming him for it (literally, he got a bad break. it happens). That said, I am more then willing to point out this OSX crap that keeps being brought up was initially the same situation- breakage was also from a tool being broke.
Don't hear that fact much, do ya? Just hear that they broke the tree.
Lack of dev education (another facet of the osx debacle) also was a major issue, but what's being pointed out is that they broke stuff, not that the recruitment process was tightened pretty much in response to it. Rather then a dev bringing in new devs completely on their own without any oversight, they now have to do it via devrel, pretty much adding a third party check on new devs prior to getting cvs access. Frankly, the ball got dropped on education/'minting' the devs, and yes, some users got pissed off from it. What's being left out is the fact that the issue of devs being brought in without proper knowledge/training was addressed because of that incident. So it's a bit stupid bitching about it as if nothing was done to try and prevent that scenario from occuring again. The very organization he's poking at has recruitement pass through them to attempt and prevent the OSX scenario where new devs were unleashed on the tree without proper training. Again, that's not mentioned.
Beyond that, his end of mentoring quiz is actually in use.
Just makes it a better arguement against devrel leaving that fact out.
And... since I've opened my mouth on this, addressing another point. "Lying to the public". The non existant port as pointed out earlier in this epic thread, actually does exist and can be played with. Not that it should be deemed 'official', but that's a subject for the metastructure proposal (voting currently), which to some degree was a reaction of the opensolaris announcement.
The censorship/"can't speak bad without considering the PR effect" accusation/insinuation, "lying to the public" are pretty much addressed here in my blog. Keep in mind I disagree with what he posted, in other words, consider both sides (stupidly accepting one side of the arguement works in the favor of those seeking to stir things up). Devs have the logs that were the basis of the claims of censorship (he released that snippet in his devrel attack in response to the warning), and will be able to bear out that blog entry as being accurate. Said logs also contain the basis for his claim of
| Quote: | | a senior devrel member making allegations about illegal substance abuse by one of our managers |
(from a copy of his non existant blog, entry avail here). That statement was stretched from
| Quote: | | <devrel-member>: devs-name-withheld's on crack |
and slapped up on the planet. Your standard "xyz is on crack" thrown left and right in irc now is planet expose material painting devrel in bad light. How is this related to gentoo anymore, beyond power struggles?
The demands that devrel post a public explanation also is a bit daft. You wouldn't like it much if you got suspended from work, and HR went and posted a report with all the nasty details in the local paper would you? Cause effectively, that's what you're asking for. You want the sordid details of something that should be essentially a private slap (read: private == gentoo devs, not full community), poke the parties involved. Wouldn't expect much out of devrel simply because, if I were in his place, I'd be pissed if they were explaining to every joe schmoe why they spanked me.
Pretty much the 'net negative contribution' bit comes down to this question; how much warring, bullshit, friction, whatever you want to call it is worth putting up with for a technical gain? No, you can't argue that you can't force people to get along with each other, since that misses the point; people become developers because they want to work on gentoo, and one of the requirements of becoming a dev (beyond any technical rules of the road) is you don't piss on your neighbor, due to the fact that you're joining (essentially) a social group. Gentoo doesn't force you to play nice, it's common sense that you don't antagonize said group so it chucks you out on your ass (whether via a procedural group, or multiple devs considering bailing due to the presence of another dev). It's a matter of understanding what you're signing up for, and playing by the social rules the group has agreed to.
Good analogy. If you're an ass to your friends continually, even if you're damned funny, sooner or later they're going to slap back. Good manners require people to turn the other cheek somewhat, but there are a limited number of cheeks to go through prior to a response being required (please no ass jokes).
What's my point here?
The last 6 pages pretty much have been based off stretched facts from my standpoint. He did the public gesture of wiping a valuable resource to users (and blaming devrel for it), the eclectic fun, and posting a psuedo devrel attack. Frankly it's a parting blow at an organization the author has had a long running war with. Use your brain, question what you read (both sides) rather then accepting what is essentially an agenda (again, my opinion).
He got his warning, he got the chance to respond to it, decided to war on the procedure of it, few weeks later he got suspended for another bit of antisocial behaviour. So... kindly don't try and state there is no chance to respond, 'twas a chance.
To block off the "how can we trust what you're saying to be true, and not part of some agenda", you can't and you need a kick upside the head if you blindly trust what people write as fact. This applies both to what I've wrote, and the firedrop comments without careful examinition of both. You decide if you accept it as truth based upon it's arguements, it's goals (why was this written?), what you know for fact, and your own opinions.
Kindly do not forget the process of critical thinking, otherwise people make assumptions that may not reflect actual reality.
Devrel changes are proceeding, development is continuing, life is continuing as is work. Devrel probably gained quite a few gray hairs from this (as did devs I suspect), and a proposal to correct any previous screwups/mishandles is underway. Majority of devs seem to be ignoring the sqawking that followed, just sized up the situation, discussed changes, and kept on trucking.
I'd suggest users do the same, unless bantering around conspiracy theories is your cup of tea (in which case, go for broke if it's your thing ).
| occ wrote: | | I tried to protect myself against 'accident' in portage by mirroring in a staging area which I use to validate new version before I make them accessible to the rest of the lab. |
Good, common sense. Do the same thing with my servers. Worth noting that we have a very minimal pipeline for changes hitting cvs, and being available to user. It's effectively anoncvs, just with a minor time lag (and less history), and this is somewhat intentional (imho mind you). Horkage occurs, we wouldn't have people pushing semi-stable trees (glep 19) if they didn't want to induce a bit more lag/review of tree changes. Would like to see a secondary tree that's slower moving, but I came (and stick around) for the existing tree- prefer the speed of change, bumps and all to the alternatives.
At the very least, I can (and do for servers) just snapshot the tree, test it, and manage the tree myself, pulling in updates as desired, rather then trusting my more critical hardware to a fluid tree. Managing a debian box is the same, you don't use the untested branches on critical hardware, do ya?
Meanwhile, I've got a suggestion for another point of heated debate/half-assed assumptions; Something like vim vs emacs, or better yet, nano vs all of the other overgrown pretenders to the throne?
/me shuts up and wanders back to trying to break portage... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
loki99
Advocate
Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think that all the "sqawking" could have been avoided, if someone would have posted a reply similar to yours, right after Ciaran's statement got linked.
But thank you for bringing some more light into this issue. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ferringb
Retired Dev
Joined: 03 Apr 2003
Posts: 357
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| loki99 wrote: |
I think that all the "sqawking" could have been avoided, if someone would have posted a reply similar to yours, right after Ciaran's statement got linked. |
Thing is, the response shouldn't be required- my earlier comment about the suspension not being announced to the world is a matter of respect to him (whether he or others agree, that is the base reasoning behind it). He announced it, he can answer the hard questions of justifying it, rather then more vague statements that there is an evil cabal controlling gentoo. It is a bit like wallowing in the mud with the pigs; now there is further fodder for claiming that gentoo is PR'ing, because a single dev called 'bullshit', disputing his assertions.
Pretty much in this case, and past stupid, stupid, stupid wars of this sort, you're screwed by getting involved. Right or wrong, it may be worth it from a sanity aspect to sit back and let him paint the picture how he wants. Everyone knows someone that they avoid getting into debates with, because the debate is incapable of ending until one of the participants loses consciousness due to sleep deprivation. This is something of a similar situation.
Note, gentoo isn't perfect. Things do get broke, and things change to react, and try and deal with the borkage (both limiting it's effect and trying to block it from reoccuring). It's a slippery slope, problems occur, question is whether or not effort is made to correct them, or if we're continually hitting the same borkage, over and over.
I posit we're not, but that's a decision users can make pretty easily, since they're users of the tree.
The other stuff regarding 'support groups' aka the sekret cabal, well, whatever. It was suggested multiple times he could join up with them and attempt to change them, which he declined under the auspices "I don't politk, I develop".
So... my standpoint is either step up and try to contribute, or shut your mouth. Don't just sit back and bitch when there is a more constructive route to fix the perceived problems (whether they're actual problems or just mole hills from ant hills). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
loki99
Advocate
Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ferringb wrote: | | loki99 wrote: |
I think that all the "sqawking" could have been avoided, if someone would have posted a reply similar to yours, right after Ciaran's statement got linked. |
Thing is, the response shouldn't be required- my earlier comment about the suspension not being announced to the world is a matter of respect to him (whether he or others agree, that is the base reasoning behind it). He announced it, he can answer the hard questions of justifying it, rather then more vague statements that there is an evil cabal controlling gentoo. It is a bit like wallowing in the mud with the pigs; now there is further fodder for claiming that gentoo is PR'ing, because a single dev called 'bullshit', disputing his assertions.
Pretty much in this case, and past stupid, stupid, stupid wars of this sort, you're screwed by getting involved. Right or wrong, it may be worth it from a sanity aspect to sit back and let him paint the picture how he wants. Everyone knows someone that they avoid getting into debates with, because the debate is incapable of ending until one of the participants loses consciousness due to sleep deprivation. This is something of a similar situation.
Note, gentoo isn't perfect. Things do get broke, and things change to react, and try and deal with the borkage (both limiting it's effect and trying to block it from reoccuring). It's a slippery slope, problems occur, question is whether or not effort is made to correct them, or if we're continually hitting the same borkage, over and over.
I posit we're not, but that's a decision users can make pretty easily, since they're users of the tree.
The other stuff regarding 'support groups' aka the sekret cabal, well, whatever. It was suggested multiple times he could join up with them and attempt to change them, which he declined under the auspices "I don't politk, I develop".
So... my standpoint is either step up and try to contribute, or shut your mouth. Don't just sit back and bitch when there is a more constructive route to fix the perceived problems (whether they're actual problems or just mole hills from ant hills). |
From a users point of view, it is hard to figure out what has happend.
At first, all we had was Ciaran's side of the story. Since I have spent quite some time on these forums, I know, that he can be quite a pain in the ass, but even I got a trifle bemused, after no one seemed to be willing to respond to his claims. And I'm not even talking about, how this must look to an outsider!
The point I am trying to make is, that there must be better ways to handle a situation like this. Because not responding at all and trying to sit the problem out isn't an option, IMO.
I truely believe, that almost no one expected devrel or any dev to engage in a mud battle, but there is nothing wrong with posting a counterstatement. I can also understand, that most devs don't bother to read this here, since they have better things to do, but there should be some devs that do care and stay in touch with the user base.
After all transparency should be a main point in gentoo's policy! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
occ
Apprentice
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 202
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
ferringb:
Thanks for your view on this.
| Quote: |
Use your brain, question what you read (both sides) rather then accepting what is essentially an agenda (again, my opinion).
|
That was hard to do (reading both side, not using my brain , because only one side was presented.
| Quote: |
The demands that devrel post a public explanation also is a bit daft. You wouldn't like it much if you got suspended from work, and HR went and posted a report with all the nasty details in the local paper would you? Cause effectively, that's what you're asking for.
|
For one thing, I was much more concern with the accusassion made toward the structure of gentoo, thatn the gory details of ciraims feud. Nevertheless, even if I did, your analogy is incorrect in that: if I got suspended to work, and I go ahaed and publish an article in the local newspaper about it, making accusations and allegation againt my employer, I fully expect my employer to publicly react....
| Quote: | | and occured arround 4 months ago but still is referenced as if it occured every other day. Dev in question made a mistake, one mistake doesn't warrant several months of harassment on a single mistake compared to a large amount of good work. |
I see, thanks, that do shed some light on this accusation.
Overall, thanks for your post. Had some did that 7 page ago, I would probably not have felt the 'need' to open my big mouth |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ferringb wrote: | | occ wrote: | | So either, this particular (ex)gentoo-dev lied and/or blew out of proportion a minor 'oops' that never really affected the base, or he is raising legitimate and serious questions. |
Gotta say, I'm pretty sick of hearing the OSX crap. That and the fact a dev made a screwup in eutils (dumb screwup which happens unfortunately); nevermind that the dev offered to resign, which wasn't accepted, and occured arround 4 months ago but still is referenced as if it occured every other day. Dev in question made a mistake, one mistake doesn't warrant several months of harassment on a single mistake compared to a large amount of good work. Warrants a damned good nuggie for making the mistake, and a rather nasty slap if they made the same mistake twice (they haven't). So... that example is a bit off, since it was a rarity; screwups of that sort rarely happen, and no one to my knowledge has ever made a screw up on that level twice (this is also ignoring the fact the borkage in question was in the tree for all of an hour if I recall correctly). |
whoa whoa whoa, are you telling me that you lot, including devrel, couldn't sort this out in 4 months!!!. But we also have the bug report #57300 which was started on 2004-07-16 09:36 PDT as well. Oh my oh my, thats 11 months!!! Gentoo was willing to put up with this behaviour last July so what is the difference from then to now? And if there is a diffference why wasn't something done about it sooner?
| ferringb wrote: | Something to note; ciaranm broke the tree bad enough that cvs->rsync was turned off for 4 hours. In other words, the rsync tree was disabled while the mess was cleaned up- it was too badly screwed up from a dep standpoint to allow users to even see it. He got bit by a tool having a bug. Shit happens, I'm honestly not blaming him for it (literally, he got a bad break. it happens). That said, I am more then willing to point out this OSX crap that keeps being brought up was initially the same situation- breakage was also from a tool being broke.
Don't hear that fact much, do ya? Just hear that they broke the tree. |
personally, antagonism of the dev that broke the tree is the minor point from what i've read. But then again most of the reasons are fairly petty and have been blown out of proportion over time because they weren't dealt with at the time they occurred.
| ferringb wrote: | Beyond that, his end of mentoring quiz is actually in use.
Just makes it a better arguement against devrel leaving that fact out. |
It wasn't, and if you read back you can see when they put it in
| ferringb wrote: | | And... since I've opened my mouth on this, addressing another point. "Lying to the public". The non existant port as pointed out earlier in this epic thread, actually does exist and can be played with. Not that it should be deemed 'official', but that's a subject for the metastructure proposal (voting currently), which to some degree was a reaction of the opensolaris announcement. |
Of course its not official, its not even being done by Gentoo devs, therefore not being done by Gentoo, therefore Gentoo doesn't have an opensolaris port. Perhaps when they are devs and it becomes "official" then Gentoo will have an opensolaris port
| ferringb wrote: | The censorship/"can't speak bad without considering the PR effect" accusation/insinuation, "lying to the public" are pretty much addressed here in my blog. Keep in mind I disagree with what he posted, in other words, consider both sides (stupidly accepting one side of the arguement works in the favor of those seeking to stir things up). Devs have the logs that were the basis of the claims of censorship (he released that snippet in his devrel attack in response to the warning), and will be able to bear out that blog entry as being accurate. Said logs also contain the basis for his claim of
| Quote: | | a senior devrel member making allegations about illegal substance abuse by one of our managers |
(from a copy of his non existant blog, entry avail here). That statement was stretched from
| Quote: | | <devrel-member>: devs-name-withheld's on crack |
and slapped up on the planet. Your standard "xyz is on crack" thrown left and right in irc now is planet expose material painting devrel in bad light. How is this related to gentoo anymore, beyond power struggles? |
I'm sorry, but argueing about this is nonsense.
1) Devrel has to be whiter than white, theres no getting round that.
2) Why would anybody take "Brian, are you on crack?" to mean anything but "Brian, why are you doing stupid things?"
3) And if this was such an issue, why wasn't it sorted out at the time?
| ferringb wrote: | | The demands that devrel post a public explanation also is a bit daft. You wouldn't like it much if you got suspended from work, and HR went and posted a report with all the nasty details in the local paper would you? Cause effectively, that's what you're asking for. You want the sordid details of something that should be essentially a private slap (read: private == gentoo devs, not full community), poke the parties involved. Wouldn't expect much out of devrel simply because, if I were in his place, I'd be pissed if they were explaining to every joe schmoe why they spanked me. |
No, that is crap. Devrel and the devs obviously dont want this to happen again otherwise there wouldn't have been so many devs on here. Also make it known from now on that any suspensions will be announced to stop this happening again otherwise this will just go on and on. Also, why does private == Gentoo devs, why doesn't private == devrel + dev involved? Next time there should be an announcement made, it would count to his slap on the wrist.
| ferringb wrote: | | Pretty much the 'net negative contribution' bit comes down to this question; how much warring, bullshit, friction, whatever you want to call it is worth putting up with for a technical gain? No, you can't argue that you can't force people to get along with each other, since that misses the point; people become developers because they want to work on gentoo, and one of the requirements of becoming a dev (beyond any technical rules of the road) is you don't piss on your neighbor, due to the fact that you're joining (essentially) a social group. Gentoo doesn't force you to play nice, it's common sense that you don't antagonize said group so it chucks you out on your ass (whether via a procedural group, or multiple devs considering bailing due to the presence of another dev). It's a matter of understanding what you're signing up for, and playing by the social rules the group has agreed to. |
No-one is debating that here, we're wondering why things weren't cleared up earlier, its been left to rot and now its a minefield. Things should be sorted out as soon as possible, not 11 months later.
| ferringb wrote: | What's my point here?
The last 6 pages pretty much have been based off stretched facts from my standpoint. He did the public gesture of wiping a valuable resource to users (and blaming devrel for it), the eclectic fun, and posting a psuedo devrel attack. Frankly it's a parting blow at an organization the author has had a long running war with. Use your brain, question what you read (both sides) rather then accepting what is essentially an agenda (again, my opinion). |
each side had an agenda here.
| ferringb wrote: | Devrel changes are proceeding, development is continuing, life is continuing as is work. Devrel probably gained quite a few gray hairs from this (as did devs I suspect), and a proposal to correct any previous screwups/mishandles is underway. Majority of devs seem to be ignoring the sqawking that followed, just sized up the situation, discussed changes, and kept on trucking.
I'd suggest users do the same, unless bantering around conspiracy theories is your cup of tea (in which case, go for broke if it's your thing ). |
How ignorand can you be? We are the people who love gentoo and we aren't doing this to concoct some half baked conspiracy theory, we are doing this because we are seeing the failings of the way Gentoo is run. We are also doing it because the very people that make gentoo what it is are being left out, in the cold, from any information and just being told by some 3rd party that "it will get fixed". Well sorry, until we see action and things being put right then we'll carry on questioning things. The whole fact that this thread has reached 8 pages is testament to the fact that we can see that Gentoo and devrel has to change and are pretty pissed off with the facts and the reasons that are coming out for the incompetence
| ferringb wrote: | | Meanwhile, I've got a suggestion for another point of heated debate/half-assed assumptions; Something like vim vs emacs, or better yet, nano vs all of the other overgrown pretenders to the throne? |
I wonder why people keep asking us not to discuss it...
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mcspiff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 109
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Go cokehabbit, Go cokehabbit! w00t!
But seriously, why wouldnt the user expect a reaction from devrel. Because as anyone with any experience in PR will tell you that 'No comment at this time' says more and looks worse than just about anything you can do. Coming out and attacking the person not the issue also makes you look plain silly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ferringb
Retired Dev
Joined: 03 Apr 2003
Posts: 357
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cokehabit wrote: | | whoa whoa whoa, are you telling me that you lot, including devrel, couldn't sort this out in 4 months!!!. But we also have the bug report #57300 which was started on 2004-07-16 09:36 PDT as well. Oh my oh my, thats 11 months!!! Gentoo was willing to put up with this behaviour last July so what is the difference from then to now? And if there is a diffference why wasn't something done about it sooner? |
What's there to state? At what point do you declare that the needling, the toeing of the line has gone to far? If I occasionally called you a cockblaster, at what point would you finally state "this goes no further"?
Beyond that, you're assuming that devrel hasn't asked him to play nice with others, rather then issueing a final warning. Attempts were made, the last attempt (which pretty much lead to the warning) resulted in ciaran claiming devrel is attempting to censor him.
| cokehabit wrote: | | personally, antagonism of the dev that broke the tree is the minor point from what i've read. But then again most of the reasons are fairly petty and have been blown out of proportion over time because they weren't dealt with at the time they occurred. |
Minor point? Man, that's daft. We have a friendly community, if the majority of our devs play nice, but one refuses to not be an ass to whomever he chooses, that's a bit more then a petty issue blown out of proportion. The thing to note is that this 'minor point' is in reality just an example of general needling ciaran liked to do to people. Personally, the lies posted via his blog are of a lesser issue to me then his attacks on the dev in question, this 'minor point'. Why?
Our community, right up to the devs follow basic civility towards others, something that rivals the work itself (for me at least). If he had just a single target, I'd probably honestly overlook it (it ain't right, but I'm not perfect, nobody/nothing is). He had a bit more then a single target for needling though.
| cokehabit wrote: | | ferringb wrote: | | just makes it a better arguement against devrel leaving that fact out. |
It wasn't, and if you read back you can see when they put it in |
So, maybe I'm ignorant, but why is he bitching about it, and pointing at it as a sign that the sky is falling if he got what he wanted? Only point ciaran was attempting there was to paint devrel as incompetent. Kind of stupid, he got what he wanted, but he also wants them to paint them as fools? Wow, that's rather unfriendly
| cokehabit wrote: | | Of course [opensolaris port is] not official, its not even being done by Gentoo devs, therefore not being done by Gentoo, therefore Gentoo doesn't have an opensolaris port. Perhaps when they are devs and it becomes "official" then Gentoo will have an opensolaris port |
Why are you arguing over it being labeled as official or not? Does a port exist or not, and is pvdabeel (a gentoo developer) associated with it in any way? The answer is yes.
Was the opensolaris announcement mildly out of the blue? Yes. Should it have been called official once upon a time in the GWN? No, but their wasn't any structure in place to mint ports as 'official' or not. Note the comment about metastructure proposal being underway..
Does that somehow excuse the fact that every chance ciaran has had, he's declared it as not existing, and called anyone associated with it asshats, or at best, labelled them as capable of only 'hyped up bullshit'? Not really.
See that's the bitch of dealing with ciaran's attacks. Typically, he's got some grain of truth he can latch to whenever someone points out he's trolling. Devs (myself included) have made rather viotriolic comments about opensolaris, the difference is that they haven't resorted to trolling it everytime pvdabeel was even mentioned, or the gwn was mentioned.
State what you want, but don't resort to attacking. His modus operandi has been attacks, and that just ain't valid.
| cokehabit wrote: | | Devrel has to be whiter than white, theres no getting round that. |
Are you stating they aren't, and based upon what facts?
Nothing is perfect. That's an unattainable goal. There is a reason that devrel decisions are by a group, not by a single lone developer (as was the case when drobbins had that onerous duty). Either way, if you think they're not 'whiter then white', state how, or try to join up and ensure they're 'whiter then white'.
Unless you're trying to key into ciaran's continuing statement that devrel is incompetent, in which case I'd suggest you stop. Had enough of that bullshit once already. Frankly, if they're incompetent, the facts have been laid out, and people can decide for themselves.
| cokehabit wrote: | | Why would anybody take "Brian, are you on crack?" to mean anything but "Brian, why are you doing stupid things?" |
Good question. So why did ciaran turn that into "senior devrel member making allegations of illegal drug abuse..."?
| cokehabit wrote: | | And if this was such an issue, why wasn't it sorted out at the time? |
Worth noting he got a warning just a bit after that. In other words, something was done, which you didn't know about.
Easy to state that it should've been done better, but that's also mild bullshit, cause you weren't there, weren't involved, and only know the bits you've picked up from your conversations in #gentoo-uk. Stating it a bit a nicer, hindsight is 20/20. Ciaran's behaviour has been an issue for a long while, but he's never done anything blatantly evil that was absolutely totally over the line till his final email attack, nothing that demanded an immediate suspension.
Seriously. The guy was decent to some, did good work, but a serious troll to others; a good troll doesn't appear as a trolling, in other words, they to the limits the whole way, stepping over only occasionally. They build up a reputation for being pita's, but it's very hard to build up a case history of "did xyz on 00/00/00", etc.
He pretty much triggered the current chain of events by going further then he had previously, the planet crap, and some rather insane flaming in -core.
| cokehabit wrote: | | No, that is [some matters being dealt with behind closed doors] is crap. Devrel and the devs obviously dont want this to happen again otherwise there wouldn't have been so many devs on here. |
Heh. If you've got a solution that's actually sane, offer it. If there had been a way to get ciaran to actually play nice, that would've been useful rather then the current outcome (he was good, just was also a touch of a troll).
| cokehabit wrote: | | Also make it known from now on that any suspensions will be announced to stop this happening again otherwise this will just go on and on. Also, why does private == Gentoo devs, why doesn't private == devrel + dev involved? Next time there should be an announcement made, it would count to his slap on the wrist. |
I suggest this thread of suggestions splits to a seperate thread, mainly since it's specific proposals for policy rather then the current line of "what's this about ciaranm being suspended + docs".
Meanwhile, stop what from happening? We've had 3 devs suspended/canned in my tenure, and only one of them has flipped the lid and made an attempt to garner public support behind them. Can you name the other two? (kindly don't answer that, it's a question to demonstrate a point).
Bad shit in an organization of our size does occur, and you're demanding that it be aired out so you can see it? Spose it depends on how you grew up. Getting fired was always something of a private affair for businesses I knew, and in instances where it wasn't, there typically was a fair amount of bad blood from the publicity forced upon the person being canned. Basically, you're asking the laundry be aired, but ignoring the bad blood that goes with it. Suspension isn't fiing a dev, all actions involved in it should be aimed at having the dev come back with the problem in check. Your demand strikes me as being a bit assbackwards in light of that intention.
| cokehabit wrote: | | No-one is debating that here, we're wondering why things weren't cleared up earlier, its been left to rot and now its a minefield. Things should be sorted out as soon as possible, not 11 months later. |
11 months jive is a bit off. A bug was opened on ciaran 11 months ago due to the fact there were ongoing complaints. Ciaran was suspended a week ago. So... either you're asking that things be cleared up in connection to his antisocial behaviour (in which case you are debating it), or you're demanding why devrel hasn't responded.
Assuming the latter, it's ciaran's business. No suspension has been public, he's just the first person who took it public to (imo) as part of his final middle finger salute. This is assuming I actually groked the meaning of this.
| cokehabit wrote: | | each side has an agenda |
Well duh (I stated this once already, hardly worthy of a post).
What's yours? And no, this "I flame cause I love gentoo" doesn't suffice, I'm asking what you're explicit agenda here is.
| ferringb wrote: | | How ignorand can you be? We are the people who love gentoo and we aren't doing this to concoct some half baked conspiracy theory, we are doing this because we are seeing the failings of the way Gentoo is run. We are also doing it because the very people that make gentoo what it is are being left out, in the cold, from any information and just being told by some 3rd party that "it will get fixed". Well sorry, until we see action and things being put right then we'll carry on questioning things. The whole fact that this thread has reached 8 pages is testament to the fact that we can see that Gentoo and devrel has to change and are pretty pissed off with the facts and the reasons that are coming out for the incompetence |
Minor note- when questioning the ignorance of another, spelling it right is advisable
Regarding how ignorant can I be, pretty damned ignorant (we've had this conversation in #gentoo-uk once upon a time, remember I'm from the US which you automatically assumed meant I support bush )
If you're this damned fired up about changing things and ensuring this thing that you love (strangely enough, devs too, give a damn), I suggest doing something other then (essentially) mouthing off in a forums thread. Try to join up with devrel, try to take an active part in protecting this thing you love, rather then armchair quarterbacking.
Bit harsh I realize, but the honest reality of it things is that people screaming at each other in a forum (let alone those who sit back and think embryonic flamewars are funny, that would be you mcspiff) aren't achieving a damn thing aside from wasting space in the db that stores this cruft. You give a damn? Do something that would actually make a difference.
I could've sat back and bitched at the portage crew that portage sucked, but instead I got off my ass and chipped in. Which is actually accomplishing something? (no, that's not an invitation for smart ass jokes about my worth )
| cokehabit wrote: | | I wonder why people keep asking us not to discuss [ciaranm's claims]... |
Never asked you to not discuss it actually. My request (clarified it a bit stronger in this post) is to do something other then armchair quarterback, to actually do a bit of thinking and go out and gather facts rather then just ranting/raving when a post comes in. My request actually is the only one that asks people to do anything, and frankly, I think my request is sane for any discussion/debate (know what you discuss prior to shooting your mouth off).
Or... you can construct a conspiracy theory around your insinuation (tenuous in fact) that a hush up is in place. If that were the case, don't you think ciaran's devspace middle finger gesture would've been changed?
mcspiff:
dunno. ask them why they haven't responded. I suspect their response will be something along the lines of "it's more trouble then it'll be worth", which you can construe as either bad PR'ing (we're devs, not PR monkeys btw), or just lack of any interest whatsoever in getting into further conflicts with ciaran. I'm not affiliated with devrel, but I can definitely understand the desire to just ignore him and let his bitching be.
[edit] This is a bit stronger then I'd like in a re-read, but leaving the words in place and tacking on this clarification. Basically, either the thread can degenerate into back and forth flaming, or branch off a discussion of the devrel proposal (this thread is ugly, a seperate thread without baggage strikes me as wise), or state whatever issues being danced around. Move towards resolution, or identifying the claimed (my opinion mind you) issues, so they can be addressed. Docs are already restored, so the original purpose of the thread is no more...
Or just call me a tool, and tell me to get lost. Whichever works best for y'all, frankly I've already shot my mouth off enough |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
firephoto
Veteran
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 1612
Location: +48° 5' 23.40", -119° 48' 30.00"
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ferringb wrote: |
~~~~ ~~~~
|
Good replies, not sure if the trolls will like the reality viewpoint or not but you stated yourself and the situation pretty good.
People are making this into a big Gentoo crisis when the truth is it's just about one person in most of your people's views. Gentoo isn't one person so get over it or some of you will just continue to look like fan boys for that one person or just taking the "other" side to keep the Gentoo tabloid news alive.
_________________
#gentoo-kde on freenode |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ferringb wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | whoa whoa whoa, are you telling me that you lot, including devrel, couldn't sort this out in 4 months!!!. But we also have the bug report #57300 which was started on 2004-07-16 09:36 PDT as well. Oh my oh my, thats 11 months!!! Gentoo was willing to put up with this behaviour last July so what is the difference from then to now? And if there is a diffference why wasn't something done about it sooner? |
What's there to state? At one point do you declare that the needling, the toeing of the line has gone to far? If I occasionally called you a cockblaster, at what point would you finally state "this goes no further"?
Beyond that, you're assuming that devrel hasn't asked him to play nice with others, rather then issueing a final warning. Attempts were made, the last attempt (which pretty much lead to the warning) resulted in ciaran claiming devrel is attempting to censor him. |
So why has it taken so long? If the people at devrel cant tell when enough is enough then they shouldn't be in devrel. Get some people who have the balls to make proper decisions instead of talking about it for 11 months.
Gentoo is far too big to be run like some amateur consortium, decisions need to be made and we, the users, should be informed.
| ferringb wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | personally, antagonism of the dev that broke the tree is the minor point from what i've read. But then again most of the reasons are fairly petty and have been blown out of proportion over time because they weren't dealt with at the time they occurred. |
Minor point? Man, that's daft. We have a friendly community, if the majority of our devs play nice, but one refuses to not be an ass to whomever he chooses, that's a bit more then a petty issue blown out of proportion. The thing to note is that this 'minor point' is in reality just an example of general needling ciaran liked to do to people. Personally, the lies posted via his blog are of a lesser issue to me then his attacks on the dev in question, this 'minor point'. Why? |
to you maybe but, from what i can read it looks like devrel took other things more seriously.
| ferringb wrote: | | Our community, right up to the devs follow basic civility towards others, something that rivals the work itself (for me at least). If he had just a single target, I'd probably honestly overlook it (it ain't right, but I'm not perfect, nobody/nothing is). He had a bit more then a single target for needling though. |
right, so i take it foser, ramereth, cardoe, klieber and ramareth are all going to get the same treatment as ciaranm?
| ferringb wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | ferringb wrote: | | just makes it a better arguement against devrel leaving that fact out. |
It wasn't, and if you read back you can see when they put it in |
So, maybe I'm ignorant, but why is he bitching about it, and pointing at it as a sign that the sky is falling if he got what he wanted? Only point ciaran was attempting there was to paint devrel as incompetent. Kind of stupid, he got what he wanted, but he also wants them to paint them as fools? Wow, that's rather unfriendly |
Ciaranm was trying to paint them as "secret police", it was the users here on this thread that have painted them as incompetent.
| ferringb wrote: | | Why are you arguing over it being labeled as official or not? |
We're not
| ferringb wrote: | | Does a port exist or not |
yes
| ferringb wrote: | | and is pvdabeel (a gentoo developer) associated with it in any way? |
no, its is written, developed and maintained by Jason Wohlgemuth and Sunil Kumar
| ferringb wrote: | | Was the opensolaris announcement mildly out of the blue? Yes. |
agreed
| ferringb wrote: | | Should it have been called official once upon a time in the GWN? No, but their wasn't any structure in place to mint ports as 'official' or not. Note the comment about metastructure proposal being underway.. |
right, thats good, well if a note on the next weeks GWN had gone out correcting that little fault then we wouldn't be discussing it now.
| ferringb wrote: | | Does that somehow excuse the fact that every chance ciaran has had, he's declared it as not existing, and called anyone associated with it asshats, or at best, labelled them as capable of only 'hyped up bullshit'? Not really. |
It certainly does not excuse any name calling at all, nothing does. But that does not stop me from understanding how he felt towards the project. Unfortunately he used the patented Ciaranm way of telling people they didn't like it. 
| ferringb wrote: | | See that's the bitch of dealing with ciaran's attacks. Typically, he's got some grain of truth he can latch to whenever someone points out he's trolling. Devs (myself included) have made rather viotriolic comments about opensolaris, the difference is that they haven't resorted to trolling it everytime pvdabeel was even mentioned, or the gwn was mentioned. State what you want, but don't resort to attacking. His modus operandi has been attacks, and that just ain't valid. |
I agree completely. I've never said that any of his actions were justified, i just felt that he and the situation was handled abysmally.
| ferringb wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Devrel has to be whiter than white, theres no getting round that. |
Are you stating they aren't, and based upon what facts? |
You should hear what i've heard about plasmaroo and dmwaters... 
| ferringb wrote: | | Nothing is perfect. That's an unattainable goal. There is a reason that devrel decisions are by a group, not by a single lone developer (as was the case when drobbins had that onerous duty). Either way, if you think they're not 'whiter then white', state how, or try to join up and ensure they're 'whiter then white'. |
i went to offer my help while i was in london and they accused me of "trolling". I have plenty of suggestions, one of the first one would be a liason or liasons with the community to make their decisions look better to the Gentoo community as a whole. At the moment they look like they are a law unto themselves. All that was needed to clear up was a statement like this: | Devrel wrote: | Ciaranm, the Vim and Fluxbox developer has been suspended from all Gentoo projects, effective immediately. This was for a gross misconduct directed at a fellow developer on the gentoo-core mailing list, persistant insulting and disrespectful comments aimed at numerous developers. After recieving his final warning his latest mail to the gentoo-core list and the abuse of #gentoo-uk was the last straw.
--Deedra Waters, Devrel Lead |
| ferringb wrote: | | Unless you're trying to key into ciaran's continuing statement that devrel is incompetent, in which case I'd suggest you stop. Had enough of that bullshit once already. Frankly, if they're incompetent, the facts have been laid out, and people can decide for themselves. |
well thats the problem, no-one is laying out anything...
| ferringb wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Why would anybody take "Brian, are you on crack?" to mean anything but "Brian, why are you doing stupid things?" |
Good question. So why did ciaran turn that into "senior devrel member making allegations of illegal drug abuse..."? |
why are you taking it seriously then?
| ferringb wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | And if this was such an issue, why wasn't it sorted out at the time? |
Worth noting he got a warning just a bit after that. In other words, something was done, which you didn't know about.
Easy to state that it should've been done better, but that's also mild bullshit, cause you weren't there, weren't involved, and only know the bits you've picked up from your conversations/hearsay in #gentoo-uk likely via the serial heckler himself, ciaranm. |
I'd be careful, you come across as a real ignorant dev when you speak like that, i really dont care about your "i'm better than you because i'm a dev attitude". But i suppose you're betting me to prove my wang... ok then.
| ferringb wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | No, that is [some matters being dealt with behind closed doors] is crap. Devrel and the devs obviously dont want this to happen again otherwise there wouldn't have been so many devs on here. |
Heh. If you've got a solution that's actually sane, offer it. If there had been a way to get ciaran to actually play nice, that would've been useful rather then the current outcome (he was good, just was also a touch of a troll). |
Well for a start you need asystem where once a complaint has been made tree access is taken away (to protect it) whilst the complaint is investigated within a certain time (5 days would be a good length). After that a decision should be taken as to whether chasticise the developer or do what they feel is necessary. basically Ciaranm got away with his behaviour for so long that it probably never occurred to him that he would get suspended for it. If he got suspended for 5 days as soon as it happened and then for another week afterwards then i can imagine that he wouldn't have done/said half of what he did.
| ferringb wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Also make it known from now on that any suspensions will be announced to stop this happening again otherwise this will just go on and on. Also, why does private == Gentoo devs, why doesn't private == devrel + dev involved? Next time there should be an announcement made, it would count to his slap on the wrist. |
I suggest this thread of suggestions splits to a seperate thread, mainly since it's specific proposals for policy rather then the current line of "what's this about ciaranm being suspended + docs". |
good idea.
| ferringb wrote: | | Meanwhile, stop what from happening? We've had 3 devs suspended/canned in my tenure, and only one of them has flipped the lid and made an attempt to garner public support behind them. Can you name the other two? (kindly don't answer that, it's a question to demonstrate a point). |
I can only think of one. And for your information Ciaranm has not tried to "garner support" from me, i am argueing for Gentoo not Ciaranm
| ferringb wrote: | | Bad shit in an organization of our size does occur, and you're demanding that it be aired out so you can see it? Spose it depends on how you grew up. Getting fired was always something of a private affair for businesses I knew, and in instances where it wasn't, there typically was a fair amount of bad blood from the publicity forced upon the person being canned. Basically, you're asking the laundry be aired, but ignoring the bad blood that goes with it. Suspension isn't fiing a dev, all actions involved in it should be aimed at having the dev come back with the problem in check. Your demand strikes me as being a bit assbackwards in light of that intention. |
No, what it depends on is what side of the wall your knowlege is, as a manager when i had to fire an employee for gross incompetence at a health club we had made the other employees aware that he was under warnings just in case they made his situation worse which would have been through no fault of his own and therefore unfair. It also meant everyone knew the same and no-one had any secrets. The employees always felt that they could offer their opinion and they did. It also made my life easier because they knew i had been left with no choice but to ask for his resignation.
| ferringb wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | No-one is debating that here, we're wondering why things weren't cleared up earlier, its been left to rot and now its a minefield. Things should be sorted out as soon as possible, not 11 months later. |
11 months jive is a bit off. A bug was opened on ciaran 11 months ago due to the fact there were ongoing complaints. Ciaran was suspended a week ago. So... either you're asking that things be cleared up in connection to his antisocial behaviour (in which case you are debating it), or you're demanding why devrel hasn't responded. |
I'm wondering why this is the first time these flaws have come out. Dont tell me that out of 300 devs no-one could see this happening? Ok i understand you were all probably busy with projects but at least some of the people in devrel with basic business experience should have seen this coming
| ferringb wrote: | | Assuming the latter, it's ciaran's business. No suspension has been public, he's just the first person who took it public to (imo) as part of his final middle finger salute. This is assuming I actually groked the meaning of this. |
| ferringb wrote: | | What's yours[agenda]? And no, this "I flame cause I love gentoo" doesn't suffice, I'm asking what you're explicit agenda here is. |
Are you saying i'm flaming?
My agenda? I have none, i have been on the recieving end from ciaranm more times than i care to count. What i do see is an organisation fumbling in the dark with no real clue as how to sort out problems internally, i see a page of html which basically says "be nice to eachother" and nothing much else. I see no structure, no definitive rules and no accountability. I see see a three tier system of governance where none of the tiers are speaking to eachother, i see no information flowing between the users, the devs and devrel. I see a basic lack of understanding between the three and all because no-one is talking.
In short i see problems, i see avoidable problems.
| ferringb wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | How ignorant can you be? We are the people who love gentoo and we aren't doing this to concoct some half baked conspiracy theory, we are doing this because we are seeing the failings of the way Gentoo is run. We are also doing it because the very people that make gentoo what it is are being left out, in the cold, from any information and just being told by some 3rd party that "it will get fixed". Well sorry, until we see action and things being put right then we'll carry on questioning things. The whole fact that this thread has reached 8 pages is testament to the fact that we can see that Gentoo and devrel has to change and are pretty pissed off with the facts and the reasons that are coming out for the incompetence |
Minor note- when questioning the ignorance of another, spelling it right is advisable
Regarding how ignorant can I be, pretty damned ignorant (we've had this conversation in #gentoo-uk once upon a time, remember I'm from the US which you automatically assumed meant I support bush ) |
new keyboard, having trouble typing fast, i keep missing the space bar. If you ever think about buying a special aluminium keyboard from Packard Bell..... DONT!
| ferringb wrote: | | If you're this damned fired up about changing things and ensuring this thing that you love (strangely enough, devs too, give a damn), I suggest doing something other then (essentially) mouthing off in a forums thread. Try to join up with devrel, try to take an active part in protecting this thing you love, rather then armchair quarterbacking. |
i take offence to you saying i'm just mouthing off. My opinion has been reasoned, my comments, sensible and apart from on here i have not been anything but polite.
regarding me and devrel; If devrel think i can be some use to them then i will help, first of all what needs to be done is a clear set of rules need to be written, not just a vague document. Anyway, i can imagine they would have problems with me joining, i'd have to shut my mouth on the forums as well 
| ferringb wrote: | | Bit harsh I realize, but the honest reality of it things is that people screaming at each other in a forum (let alone those who sit back and think embryonic flamewars are funny, that would be you mcspiff) aren't achieving a damn thing aside from wasting space in the db that stores this cruft. You give a damn? Do something that would actually make a difference. |
ok Brian, just so you know, i have spoken to Stuart, Plasmaroo, and #gentoo-devrel about this, Stuart and Plasmaroo were very forthcoming but i got the typical developer "this is our problem, you're a user, what do you know?" attitude from #gentoo-devrel and why should i bother when it seems like my views and comments are not wanted or valued in the least?
| ferringb wrote: | | I could've sat back and bitched at the portage crew that portage sucked, but instead I got off my ass and chipped in. Which is actually accomplishing something? (no, that's not an invitation for smart ass jokes about my worth ) |
well have you fixed it so that updatedb doesn't count .ccache?
| ferringb wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | I wonder why people keep asking us not to discuss [ciaranm's claims]... |
I Never asked you to not discuss it actually. My request (clarified it a bit stronger in this post) is to do something other then armchair quarterback, to actually do a bit of thinking and go out and gather facts rather then just ranting/raving when a post comes in. My request actually is the only one that asks people to do anything, and frankly, I think my request is sane for any discussion/debate (know what you discuss prior to shooting your mouth off).
Or... you can construct a conspiracy theory around your insinuation (tenuous in fact) that a hush up is in place. If that were the case, don't you think ciaran's devspace middle finger gesture could've been changed? |
Well you can judge whether i'm unimformed or not...
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
worlds longest post, lol.
Ferringb bring this into IRC, the posts are too long, it took me about an hour to write and format
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jhuebel
Retired Dev
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Orange, TX, USA
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I just wanted to throw in a point that's been missed over the last several replies. ferringb has done a great job discussing the reality of the current situation, but there still this: Developer Relations was considered by Ciaran as an incompetent group, partly because we only ever gave him unofficial warnings (via private discussion in IRC). Personally, I feel like we were doing him a favor (at devrel's expense) by not issuing official warnings in the past. Since his behaviour hadn't improved, the members of Developer Relations decided that the time had come to give Ciaran an official warning. A subsequent email (around 24 hours later) provided Ciaran with a few examples to show the behaviour that Developer Relations was referring to in our warning.
But the warning was not the suspension. He was still a developer and would have had no further action taken against him if he had only played nice with the rest of the developers. Instead, he chose to insult a developer on the gentoo-core mailing list. So he was suspended. It's a cut and dry case. Even it weren't Ciaran-- someone with a history of abusing other developers-- and even if the warning hadn't been issued to him, his comments would not have been tolerated, just as they weren't tolerated by other developers in the past.
That this has become a political free-for-all is disappointing. Especially since Developer Relations' hands are tied when it comes to discussing the specifics of an incident publicy. This is not to save face, but to show courtesy to the public and the developers involved in the dispute. Developer Relations is more than willing to accept any constructive criticism that is given (see the gentoo-devrel mailing list for the on-going discussion of devrel procedural changes). We're also required to be tough skinned enough to weather unfair criticism, since we're bound by etiquette to respond tactfully, politely and with the well-being of all our fellow developers and the user community in mind.
Thanks for the many replies to this thread. If you have any suggestions for Developer Relations to consider, you are encouraged to read the thread on the gentoo-devrel mailing list to get up to speed.
Jason Huebel
Gentoo Developer Relations Lead |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
as the feelings towards this thread have been made clear by many developers and others especially my friend amne, i will no longer respond to comments in this thread.
I have made my feelings and views known and will respond in the lists or IRC.
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
resolute
n00b
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Posts: 29
Location: Texas, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jhuebel wrote: | I just wanted to throw in a point that's been missed over the last several replies. ferringb has done a great job discussing the reality of the current situation, but there still this: Developer Relations was considered by Ciaran as an incompetent group, partly because we only ever gave him unofficial warnings (via private discussion in IRC). Personally, I feel like we were doing him a favor (at devrel's expense) by not issuing official warnings in the past. Since his behaviour hadn't improved, the members of Developer Relations decided that the time had come to give Ciaran an official warning. A subsequent email (around 24 hours later) provided Ciaran with a few examples to show the behaviour that Developer Relations was referring to in our warning.
But the warning was not the suspension. He was still a developer and would have had no further action taken against him if he had only played nice with the rest of the developers. Instead, he chose to insult a developer on the gentoo-core mailing list. So he was suspended. It's a cut and dry case. Even it weren't Ciaran-- someone with a history of abusing other developers-- and even if the warning hadn't been issued to him, his comments would not have been tolerated, just as they weren't tolerated by other developers in the past.
That this has become a political free-for-all is disappointing. Especially since Developer Relations' hands are tied when it comes to discussing the specifics of an incident publicy. This is not to save face, but to show courtesy to the public and the developers involved in the dispute. Developer Relations is more than willing to accept any constructive criticism that is given (see the gentoo-devrel mailing list for the on-going discussion of devrel procedural changes). We're also required to be tough skinned enough to weather unfair criticism, since we're bound by etiquette to respond tactfully, politely and with the well-being of all our fellow developers and the user community in mind.
Thanks for the many replies to this thread. If you have any suggestions for Developer Relations to consider, you are encouraged to read the thread on the gentoo-devrel mailing list to get up to speed.
Jason Huebel
Gentoo Developer Relations Lead |
In a sea of madness and inchoate rhetoric, finally a calm voice of reason. Thanks for the post jheubel! 
_________________
"Our Nation - this generation - will lift a dark threat of violence from our people and our future. We will rally the world to this cause by our efforts, by our courage. We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
96140
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Posts: 1324
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| It does get to the point. Much appreciated. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rhill
Retired Dev
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 1629
Location: sk.ca
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| dirtyepic wrote: | | Vanquirius wrote: | | Anyway, haven't we had enough of this? |
nope. the next controversy doesn't start til Monday. |
i'm sorry but did i call it or what?
seriously though, this last page of discussion should have taken place a week ago. that was all we were asking for. forget all the Ciaran stuff for a second and look at the underlying issue. don't you find something wrong with the fact that we (the users, generalized) had to first find out about all this through a completely unrelated post on the forum? it's like you (the developers, generalized) didn't even give a rat's ass about us one way or another to even bother mentioning it. i mean, it's taken 10 days for /anyone/ to let us know what the hell went on. (PS - thanks ) yes, i agree - when you suspend someone, you don't go rubbing their face in it by announcing a list of every stupid thing they did to everyone in the company. but you DO let people know that X is on a suspension so they at least know why X isn't at work today. the pseudo-announcement cokehabit posted above is all it would have taken.
why is there such a huge gap between users and developers in this community? i mean, there's maybe half a dozen out of over a hundred devs that post to the forums with any kind of regularity. in fact, it's rare to see a dev involved in the user community in any sort of way. it seems to us that users are always a distant second in Gentoo's priorities. sometimes it's like you couldn't give a fuck about us if you tried, and that is getting very tiresome as of late.
note that this is just a rant written way too late at night and without serious thought. it's not intended to offend anyone and i'm talking about devs in general - there are a lot of good ones, i know. i just hate seeing something so valuable go to waste for such petty reasons.
_________________
by design, by neglect
for a fact or just for effect |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
psyqil
Advocate
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 2767
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dirtyepic wrote: | don't you find something wrong with the fact that we (the users, generalized) had to first find out about all this through a completely unrelated post on the forum? it's like you (the developers, generalized) didn't even give a rat's ass about us one way or another to even bother mentioning it.
[...]
why is there such a huge gap between users and developers in this community? i mean, there's maybe half a dozen out of over a hundred devs that post to the forums with any kind of regularity. in fact, it's rare to see a dev involved in the user community in any sort of way. it seems to us that users are always a distant second in Gentoo's priorities. sometimes it's like you couldn't give a fuck about us if you tried, and that is getting very tiresome as of late. |
Two questions:
1. If this had happened to any dev that hadn't posted here quite regularly, who would have cared?
2. Isn't it a good thing that devs develop instead of idle on the forums? If you're interested in them, why don't you join the gentoo-dev mailing list or #gentoo-dev on freenode. I can understand that most of them don't want to read all that incoherent rambling that makes up a good part of the forums sometimes... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
Gentoo Chat
