| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
playfool
l33t
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 688
Location: Ã
rhus, Denmark
|
 Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:43 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| cokehabit wrote: | | and lets be honest, if the mods here banned everyone who said something wrong about love-sources then there would hardly be any users. I'm a fervent beliver in love-sources but even i will admit there has been shit patchsets, but there have also been brilliant ones. |
I'd like to add that fallow has been doing some good work lately, and I'm told that the complain rate is down under his reign both from users and from developers.. so yay for fallow!
I'm pretty sure a symbiotic relationship between the distribution and 3rd party projects can be reached, at least I'm hopeful, I think the "unsupported software" forum is a nice idea.. remember for every announcement thread in that forum, is a USER who LOVES gentoo (or Linux in general), it would be cruel to crush their spirits (even if they are misguided - that's why it's unsupported software) |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The patchset have got better and better recently, and i haven't seen one that wouldn't compile for at least 9 months
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
absinthe
Retired Dev
Joined: 06 Oct 2002
Posts: 111
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cokehabit wrote: |
Its just seems (this is from an outside point of view) that decisions are being made without informing people who want to know, developers are getting annoyed because they aren't being asked and then we are always the last people to be told. Would suggestions on the internal running of Gentoo, by the people that have a real interest in it, be unappreciated? You can see from the (mixed) reactions of this thread that some of us who are unable to become developers would really like to be able to not only know whats going on but also give a suggestion to help the distro that we all use and love. |
We (or at least, speaking for myself) appreciate your interest in what goes on behind the scenes. Hell, you're probably more interested in it than most of us are. But with all due respect, I'm not sure you're that familiar with how things go on in large open source projects. "Transparent" is a term that is bandied about but never totally realized. Making -core public won't help your complaint. Mainly because most of everything about Gentoo's organizational structure and policies is and should be on -dev. -core is where devs have their bitch sessions, constructive or otherwise. It's not a sacred place, but it is necessary. Many of the conversations that people feel comfortable holding there will simply cease to do so, or take them into private chats on IRC or elsewhere. And really, they have little to nothing to do with most users in general.
I'd much rather have those comments on -core (amongst other Gentoo devs) than to see them disappear entirely... which is pretty much what I expect would happen. We have to get stuff off our chest sometimes -- we are addressing other devs -- but we don't really care to have the whole world looking in on it. It's not some conspiracy against the users... it's just a good place for us to say shitfuckpiss occasionally. And usually not even that.
Transparency is a process, not a mailing list...
Devrel has-- like any person, group or project in Gentoo-- room for improvement. And really, all of the recent events and conversation is helping to improve it. We run, we fall, we get back up, dust ourselves off, learn from it, and move on. Making -core public would not help that in any way.
_________________
Gentoo Developer |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ag_x
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 142
Location: Self Sarkarm.
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What i keep so far from this thread,is this excellent Sven Vermeulen's post,which is what i personaly call transparency,and is the kind of discussion that i would like to participate,watching or contributing with a way.
And i believe that there are many others who think the same way.
My opininon is that gentoo has to find the way out from the crisis,which is undoubtly the biggest ever.
Ciaranm's vs devrel episode in this rather popular "soap opera",which btw it has no enough taste,has to stop now. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tsunam
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Feb 2004
Posts: 343
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I was going to just keep quiet on this one, knowing that what I say will matter little to those involved with this issue. Those being everyone who works on gentoo.
This is the second time that something has come up that has upset a small percentage of the user base of the Distribution. The first as most of you will remember was the issue dealing with the store and money sent to the foundation, and the fact that not all the money that went into the store went to the foundation. That all appeared to stem from the fact that the general populace had no idea what in fact the foundations deal with DRobbins was at the time. Once it came to light, then the information became available. Also, some hunting down was required to find the Quarterly statements for both the foundation and the store (store was much more transparent for finding it).
Now, we have an issue with the how and why a developer, who as many will say can be grating on the personality (no point in arguing that one), was put onto suspension. It will come down to the fact that he violated the conduct in that last email, but it can also be assumed that that email, and what it entailed has a bit more to do then just what is on the surface. Most people don't just lash out for no good reason. From his length post about issues within gentoo's development process, there's been things going on for a while that should be curtailed.
When an organization within the structure of gentoo, appears to have the power to suspend for a seemingly minor issue. One that even some developers have commented is not worthy of a suspension. An audit of why that organization has the power it does and the motivation of that branch is needed. If in fact a kangaroo court was held for transparencys effect, there are further issues within the organization. Fear of losing a position because of those in charge, for simply speaking ones mind in a non argumentative view should be encouraged not smothered in a fear of repercussions.
So what is to come of this entire issue, then a developer being suspended? Perhaps it might be a time for something of an independent user base group that can advise the foundation of issues that they might not be aware of. Something not attached to gentoo development in any way. Recommendations that the foundation can do with what they want.
_________________
I'm not afraid of happy endings, just afraid my life wont work that way. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
amne
Bodhisattva
Joined: 17 Nov 2002
Posts: 6378
Location: Graz / EU
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| playfool wrote: |
I'm pretty sure a symbiotic relationship between the distribution and 3rd party projects can be reached, at least I'm hopeful, I think the "unsupported software" forum is a nice idea.. remember for every announcement thread in that forum, is a USER who LOVES gentoo (or Linux in general), it would be cruel to crush their spirits (even if they are misguided - that's why it's unsupported software) |
Quite ironically, it was more or less one of ciaranm's comments (or complaints) that made us create the Unsupported Software forum. 
_________________
Dinosaur week! (Ok, this thread is so last week) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pythonhead
Developer
Joined: 16 Dec 2002
Posts: 1801
Location: Redondo Beach, Republic of Calif.
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tsunam wrote: |
When an organization within the structure of gentoo, appears to have the power to suspend for a seemingly minor issue. One that even some developers have commented is not worthy of a suspension. An audit of why that organization has the power it does and the motivation of that branch is needed. If in fact a kangaroo court was held for transparencys effect, there are further issues within the organization. Fear of losing a position because of those in charge, for simply speaking ones mind in a non argumentative view should be encouraged not smothered in a fear of repercussions.
|
I can only speak for myself, but I'm not afraid of speaking my mind for fear of getting suspended. I haven't heard anyone else say it. I don't know if Ciaran is claiming he was suspended for questioning developer relations or if he thought it was going to happen:
| ciaran wrote: | 2. Devrel decide to throw a secret meeting wherein dmwaters and jhuebel will announce that they are going to suspend whoever it was that dared question them.
Fun, eh? The latter part happened to me.
|
As for this part, its confusing to me also:
| ciaran wrote: | The best part is, I was contacted by no less than three members of devrel before the meeting. All of them independently made the following claims:
* That it would not be a discussion, and that dmwaters and jhuebel were not going to accept any feedback they didn't like.
* That it was not going to be a fair and unbiased trial.
* That the outcome was predetermined phrases like "kangaroo court" and "sham" were used.
* That it didn't matter what I was actually going to be accused of, if anything.
* That they wanted to remain anonymous because they didn't want dmwaters to kick them off out of spite.
Yup, not even lowly devrel members feel that they are safe from devrel's leadership.
I was told later by a fourth devrel member that any comments that could have been made at the meeting "would not have mattered".
|
I'm not sure if hes saying this meeting happened, or was about to. I'm not sure what the purpose of the meeting was. The meeting happened and resulted in the warning being sent? What was the predetermined outcome? I am sure there are other developers who know a lot more about this. I don't know Ciaran, have never talked to him, so take my opinions as simply that.
If three "Deep Throat"-type devrel people are out there they haven't spoken up on his behalf. If they exist hopefully they'll do the right thing and speak up soon, not 20 years later.
| Quote: |
So what is to come of this entire issue, then a developer being suspended? Perhaps it might be a time for something of an independent user base group that can advise the foundation of issues that they might not be aware of. Something not attached to gentoo development in any way. Recommendations that the foundation can do with what they want. |
The foundation is not developer relations, who handled this whole thing. In any case, voting started today on the whole organization restructure, so on that point I agree with Ciaran and will wait and see:
| ciaran wrote: | | *shrug* Maybe a new management system will fix things. Maybe it won't. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
absinthe
Retired Dev
Joined: 06 Oct 2002
Posts: 111
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ag_x wrote: | | My opininon is that gentoo has to find the way out from the crisis,which is undoubtly the biggest ever. |
It's not a crisis. There are a handful of people who say it's the end of the world everytime something like this comes up. Gentoo is still here and thriving. It's much bigger than one person, that was proven when drobbins left.
Devs come and go all the time... granted, it's exceedingly rare that people are kicked off, but it happens. Grumblings over management structure and devrel has been a constant ever since drobbins bowed out. If you look around, these problems and debates happen elsewhere too... e.g., Debian.
Everyone needs to chill out and understand that most people involved are rational beings and are working on changes to better handle these situations in the future. It probably won't be perfect, but what ever is?
_________________
Gentoo Developer |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
loki99
Advocate
Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sven Vermeulen wrote: | Because they're smart enough to let things be instead of making the entire thread a flamefest beyond what comp.os.linux.advocacy is used to dealing with.
|
I can understand, that they won't engage in a flamewar, but any statement explaining their point of view, really would be appreciated.
From a user's point of view, this whole issue is kinda frustrating. All we know is, that a "sometimes" impolite but still quite valuable developer got kicked for writing an obnoxious mail to DevRel. But no one seems to be able to comment on what has happend before said email. And no one seems to care (or dare?) to comment on the accusation that Ciaran made in his statement.
So what should I think about this whole issue? 
I do trust the majority of the Gentoo devs, so I cannot believe, that all the claims Ciaran made are valid. But, to be honest, I also have a hard time believing, that everything he said is bullshit.
PS: Could anyone, please, point me to an document that explains the metastructure, that is now being voted on? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| absinthe wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Its just seems (this is from an outside point of view) that decisions are being made without informing people who want to know, developers are getting annoyed because they aren't being asked and then we are always the last people to be told. Would suggestions on the internal running of Gentoo, by the people that have a real interest in it, be unappreciated? You can see from the (mixed) reactions of this thread that some of us who are unable to become developers would really like to be able to not only know whats going on but also give a suggestion to help the distro that we all use and love. |
We (or at least, speaking for myself) appreciate your interest in what goes on behind the scenes. Hell, you're probably more interested in it than most of us are. But with all due respect, I'm not sure you're that familiar with how things go on in large open source projects. "Transparent" is a term that is bandied about but never totally realized. Making -core public won't help your complaint. Mainly because most of everything about Gentoo's organizational structure and policies is and should be on -dev. -core is where devs have their bitch sessions, constructive or otherwise. It's not a sacred place, but it is necessary. Many of the conversations that people feel comfortable holding there will simply cease to do so, or take them into private chats on IRC or elsewhere. And really, they have little to nothing to do with most users in general.
I'd much rather have those comments on -core (amongst other Gentoo devs) than to see them disappear entirely... which is pretty much what I expect would happen. We have to get stuff off our chest sometimes -- we are addressing other devs -- but we don't really care to have the whole world looking in on it. It's not some conspiracy against the users... it's just a good place for us to say shitfuckpiss occasionally. And usually not even that.
Transparency is a process, not a mailing list...
Devrel has-- like any person, group or project in Gentoo-- room for improvement. And really, all of the recent events and conversation is helping to improve it. We run, we fall, we get back up, dust ourselves off, learn from it, and move on. Making -core public would not help that in any way. |
No, no, no, you get me wrong. I dont think you should give access to -core, most of us dont have the time to read it anyway but some of us really care what Gentoo does and they feel that leaving the WHOLE USERBASE in the dark over matters that they feel are important is just cutting out all of gentoo's users. Ciaran mentioned a word that (from an outsiders point of view) seems like what is happening, he mentioned secret police, now the view that i'm getting is that there is a group of developers that are going round with special powers and making decisions without telling anyone what the hell they are doing and why!
You see transparency isn't opening everything up as you suggested, its making people aware of why and when things went on. Can you imagine any situation where people would condone a developer for making comments that they thought were unacceptable? If ydevrel had made a statement from the start saying | Quote: | | *Ciaranm has been suspended for 60 days for making <insert comment here> to dmwaters |
then the worst that would happen would bethat it would be discussed civilly in the forums and people would discuss whether they thought devrel was harsh or not. At the moment everyone is saying "whats going on" "ciaranm said this" "swift said that" "i think they are being nazi's" which is stupid. In fact all we, the users ask for is a bit of honesty and respect when it comes to matters that we care about (Gentoo, its developers and its users).
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
myuser
Apprentice
Joined: 31 Jan 2004
Posts: 218
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
As soon as you go down the line of suspensions, with people judging others there should be a degree of accountability and visibility on all sides.
It is a bit like the Monty Python camera sketch, but I wonder how the people behind the suspension would react if Ciaran had the power and had suspended them, based on his version of what is right and wrong. You have to be beyond reproach when handing out punishments, otherwise accusations of ego abuse are easily levied.
Though there is some irony here, he bans someone on IRC and then gets banned himself, perhaps that is justification enough, but still it seems his contribution was signifcant, and one cannot help feel if his contributions are not to be counted, then his contribution should be removed which is something Ciaran hints at, though of course he may very well have signed those rights away.
Oddly this brings out some of the fundamental problems of Open Source, and ownership rights, developers appear to be giving away their rights to their code whilst others maintain ownership of other resources and by doing so gain power. The power to suspend and exclude, ironically again the complete opposite of Open Source philosophy which is to include and encourage.
It is a mess, and I don't think it is currently being handled that well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pythonhead
Developer
Joined: 16 Dec 2002
Posts: 1801
Location: Redondo Beach, Republic of Calif.
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| myuser wrote: | | ... one cannot help feel if his contributions are not to be counted... |
He says he was told he had "net negative contribution", the key word being net. To me this says that they did the math, considering all his good work, instead of just suspending him the first time he broke policy, whenever that may have been.
Did Ciaran count all the positive work of the people who broke the tree before he decided they should be suspended? I don't know. I do know that two people he mentions in the article felt so bad about mistakes they made that they offered their resignations, which weren't accepted. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
absinthe
Retired Dev
Joined: 06 Oct 2002
Posts: 111
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cokehabit wrote: | | You see transparency isn't opening everything up as you suggested, its making people aware of why and when things went on. Can you imagine any situation where people would condone a developer for making comments that they thought were unacceptable? If ydevrel had made a statement from the start saying then the worst that would happen would bethat it would be discussed civilly in the forums and people would discuss whether they thought devrel was harsh or not. At the moment everyone is saying "whats going on" "ciaranm said this" "swift said that" "i think they are being nazi's" which is stupid. In fact all we, the users ask for is a bit of honesty and respect when it comes to matters that we care about (Gentoo, its developers and its users). |
I think it will be honestly and respectfully explained in due time. As Sven said, (paraphrased roughly) the people concerned with making sure that this issue is resolved correctly have to make sure they have all the facts, and if there were problems in how it was handled, that there's some idea of what needs to be fixed, and that they have worked on a possible solution to it. It would be a disservice to everyone (ciaranm included) if they rush it.
As an aside, it's my opinion that regardless of the contributions one makes, there has to be a spirit of goodwill and general politeness between developers, and between developers and users. Just because, well, you had 800 commits last month or whatever, doesn't give you the right to hassle or trash other people. Mistakes happen, and everyone has to make an effort to work with others in a positive way-- that is, in a way that is commonly received positively by others, not in ways *you* feel is positive. Ciaranm has demonstrated a distinct lack of tact, or willful lack of it... I've seen it, and I'm sure he thinks it's funny, and it doesn't bother me much personally. But it does bother others; that's a problem. Although I'm not up to speed on all of the reasons why action was taken against Ciaran, I'm sure those will be explained in due time.
Ciaran doesn't bother me. Then again, he's never really hassled me before. Or perhaps I failed to notice.  But if he creates a hostile environment for other developers, and can't act friendlier towards them, he needs to go. That's my view. We have enough work to do that we really don't need people around who are poisoning the fun for others.
It's my hope that we can sort this thing out over the next couple of months, and that we will have a friendlier Ciaran back with us, and a clearly defined process for devrel that most people agree with.  Maybe that's asking too much.
In any case, it's not the end of Gentoo as you know it, and I feel fine. The Good Ship Gentoo will sail on, with or without Ciaran, and even with a broken devrel. The bottom line will always be whether the software is worth using, the rest is just noise to most people.
_________________
Gentoo Developer |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chutz
n00b
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 25
Location: Sapporo
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:35 am Post subject: Where is that mail? |
|
|
| avenj wrote: | It's true that he doesn't have access to dev.gentoo.org; regardless he did take it down before he was suspended and around the same time he sent mail to the dev list insulting a fellow developer outright, and last I heard he also pulled it from his own personal website. Coupled with the note he left on his devspace that would seem to indicate pulling the doc was more an attempt to get people irritated at devrel than anything else.
plasmaroo is working on it: http://dev.gentoo.org/~plasmaroo/ciaran-the-doc-temporary-mirror-until-I-fully-fix-this-into-something-usable/ |
What mail are you guys talking about? I follow the list pretty closely (and I checked the archives again, just in case), but I cannot get it. Or did "the dev list" not mean gentoo-dev? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
j-m
Retired Dev
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 975
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| playfool wrote: | | avenj wrote: | Ciaranm was suspended for 60 days for abusive behavior.
|
/me opens a beer, this calls for celebration |
  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaosite
Guru
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 540
Location: Right over here.
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Where is that mail? |
|
|
| chutz wrote: | | What mail are you guys talking about? I follow the list pretty closely (and I checked the archives again, just in case), but I cannot get it. Or did "the dev list" not mean gentoo-dev? |
He probably meant gentoo-core. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3355
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| absinthe wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | You see transparency isn't opening everything up as you suggested, its making people aware of why and when things went on. Can you imagine any situation where people would condone a developer for making comments that they thought were unacceptable? If ydevrel had made a statement from the start saying then the worst that would happen would bethat it would be discussed civilly in the forums and people would discuss whether they thought devrel was harsh or not. At the moment everyone is saying "whats going on" "ciaranm said this" "swift said that" "i think they are being nazi's" which is stupid. In fact all we, the users ask for is a bit of honesty and respect when it comes to matters that we care about (Gentoo, its developers and its users). |
I think it will be honestly and respectfully explained in due time. As Sven said, (paraphrased roughly) the people concerned with making sure that this issue is resolved correctly have to make sure they have all the facts, and if there were problems in how it was handled, that there's some idea of what needs to be fixed, and that they have worked on a possible solution to it. It would be a disservice to everyone (ciaranm included) if they rush it. |
Surely they have ALL the facts otherwise they wouldn't have suspended him in the first place...?
See, that is exactly what i was speaking about before... All we are left to do is sit and wonder about why they cannot give a simple reason when they have taken such a big step, and if the starting reason were comments made on the forum that violated policy and the finishing reason was an ungracious email to a member of devrel, just say it.
| absinthe wrote: | | As an aside, it's my opinion that regardless of the contributions one makes, there has to be a spirit of goodwill and general politeness between developers, and between developers and users. Just because, well, you had 800 commits last month or whatever, doesn't give you the right to hassle or trash other people. Mistakes happen, and everyone has to make an effort to work with others in a positive way-- that is, in a way that is commonly received positively by others, not in ways *you* feel is positive. Ciaranm has demonstrated a distinct lack of tact, or willful lack of it... I've seen it, and I'm sure he thinks it's funny, and it doesn't bother me much personally. But it does bother others; that's a problem. Although I'm not up to speed on all of the reasons why action was taken against Ciaran, I'm sure those will be explained in due time. |
I think that for gentoo to run at an optimal pace then everyone needs to be civil towards eachother. I also know that this will never happen because of the sheer weight of developers and the simple fact that developers are human just like me. I know lots of developers and i get on really well with them, i have spent long nights speaking to swift, beu and vanquarius but i also have developers that i dont get on so well with, spb for example. So NOT getting along is just human nature.
_________________
https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
spb
Retired Dev
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 2135
Location: Cambridge, UK
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Where is that mail? |
|
|
| Chaosite wrote: | | chutz wrote: | | What mail are you guys talking about? I follow the list pretty closely (and I checked the archives again, just in case), but I cannot get it. Or did "the dev list" not mean gentoo-dev? |
He probably meant gentoo-core. |
It was gentoo-core. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
spb
Retired Dev
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 2135
Location: Cambridge, UK
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cokehabit wrote: | | but i also have developers that i dont get on so well with, spb for example. So NOT getting along is just human nature. |
You know you love me really. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
loki99
Advocate
Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ok. I managed to find some information in the Gentoo Social Contract, the Gentoo Developer Handbook, the Devrel policy guide and at the Gentoo Metastructure Project.
Are there any docs I'm missing, that explain the structure of Gentoo more detailed? Is there any document that puts some light on the way decisions are made? For example, if DevRel decides to change its policy, do they need the approval of all the other devs?
Is it my fault, that I never saw any detailed info on that issue? Does Gentoo have some kind of "constitution" on who is to decide on certain topics? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
absinthe
Retired Dev
Joined: 06 Oct 2002
Posts: 111
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I forgot to add: rudeness is contagious like road rage, especially when it happens on mailing lists, et al. People who aren't normally known for that sort of behavior get swept up in it, when they find themselves dealing with someone antagonistic... esp. if it's someone you can't ignore because you need to jointly work or cooperate with them. It's frustrating enough to cause devs to quit... 'cos, hey... we're not getting paid enough to put up with that.
Part of it, I think, will have to come from devs being willing to police other devs on the issue of "getting along". Some people just have personality issues and need help/patience/etc. It's been somewhat lassez faire for years, with devrel being the blunt instrument when things get really stinky. In the past I've turned a blind eye to what seemed like some rude behavior, mostly because I didn't feel like I had enough context to comment on it. I'm sure I've been rude on occasion. I don't know that any of us can do that anymore. We have to ask "why" when people are behaving rudely, and promote a friendly atmosphere.
This is volunteer software development, not kickboxing.
_________________
Gentoo Developer |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pythonhead
Developer
Joined: 16 Dec 2002
Posts: 1801
Location: Redondo Beach, Republic of Calif.
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| loki99 wrote: |
Is it my fault, that I never saw any detailed info on that issue? Does Gentoo have some kind of "constitution" on who is to decide on certain topics? |
I think you found most of the info but all the new proposals were just posted to gentoo-dev mailing list, where you can search for the subject "Gentoo metastructure reform poll is open" if you subscribe, or gmane:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/28603 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pythonhead
Developer
Joined: 16 Dec 2002
Posts: 1801
Location: Redondo Beach, Republic of Calif.
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cokehabit wrote: |
See, that is exactly what i was speaking about before... All we are left to do is sit and wonder about why they cannot give a simple reason when they have taken such a big step, and if the starting reason were comments made on the forum that violated policy and the finishing reason was an ungracious email to a member of devrel, just say it.
|
Have you asked them for an answer? I doubt they are reading this and it might not be fair to Ciaran to have devrel speaking about him while he doesn't have the opportunity to respond, so maybe you won't get one until his suspension is over. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
giftnudel
n00b
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 20
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hi,
this is just making me upset, so I need to comment on this (although noone will care anyway):
So, I realized that there was a problem between ciaranm and devrel (p.g.o). I also realized that this was a serious problem but I didn't really find anything so I didn't bother with it. Well, today (by accident) I found out, that he was suspended. Well, I thought, the way he talked before, this sounded like pretty big struggle so I wanted to find out more about this, so I searched the forums.
I went pretty fast over the last 5 pages but I still think I got most of the points and answers. Unfortunately, I read ciaranm's point first, as this was in the first part. Well, that all made sense to me and I think that he's got some good grounds there to argue on.
So I wanted to read the other side of the story (which I hoped I would find in this thread). Well, the users asked the same questions that I would have asked. There were also some nice feedbacks to the answers of the devs.
So from my point of view, the whole thing is pretty interesting. At the beginning, there were not really any answers, much more an attitude of "go on, nothing to see here, it will be soon forgotten". Well, this annoys me, when I'm interested, the last thing to hear is that it's not a big deal. Well, further on in the thread, we are told, that there is something going on, there will be a statement. So we are waiting for a comment. A good thing, since now, it will be investigated, that no mistakes have been made, and a perfect reason will be given.
So all I have to do is wait. But now, think a bit, if I had to suspend someone, I would make sure, that there really is no mistake, that I have a perfectly legitimate reason. So that I don't get the problem that I can't give an answer. It seems to me, that this is the problem at the moment.
To sum it up: noone is knowing what exactly is going on! This is exactly the problem ciaranm is addressing. We don not get to know anything, and well if we don't get to hear it (even if it is justified) there will still be a bad feeling, that something went totally wrong there.
I mean, speaking of a "community" this is (from my point of view) a huge alienation between the devs and the user base. Obviously, this is not good.
I would really appreciate a comment (even if you think I troll), since I want to know what's going on here. And please state if I am totally wrong about something.
I also want to add, that I can understand, that he has been suspended for a (in my eyes) uneccessary email, but this is obviously not the complete story ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ag_x
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 142
Location: Self Sarkarm.
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ok i know there many importants polls in the OTW,such as: "which is the *x best editor?Vim -emacs -joe -ed etc"
Could we add one more.please?
Could we (the gentoo userbase) have the right to vote for the gentoo future?
And the general forum votes,could be add as a small persentage to whole voting procedure?
And finally who is responsible to anser to my request (which i believe is a general demand)? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
Gentoo Chat
