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tcostigl
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Joined: 28 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| Does the jackass cd have mdadm? LVM2 and device-mapper? |
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Bob P
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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the Jackass! ISO contains what's on the typical Gentoo 2005.0 Minimal Install CD, with the addition of the appropriate Jackass! tarball for the specific architecture.
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southpaw
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 2:03 am Post subject: |
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Hey Bob,
Just thought I'd let you know that I was finally able to successfully burn an image of the pentium3 disc and everything is running as smooth as silk. I would like say that I really like the way you guys included the portage snapshot and all the other timesavers that you guys worked into this disc, it cut my system installation time down to about 3 hours. Afterwards, it only took me a few hours to get kde up and running, I gotta say after having done the manual "stage 1/3" installation so many times, this disc is a god send.....THANK YOU!!!
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Bob P
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| southpaw wrote: | Hey Bob,
Just thought I'd let you know that I was finally able to successfully burn an image of the pentium3 disc and everything is running as smooth as silk. I would like say that I really like the way you guys included the portage snapshot and all the other timesavers that you guys worked into this disc, it cut my system installation time down to about 3 hours. Afterwards, it only took me a few hours to get kde up and running, I gotta say after having done the manual "stage 1/3" installation so many times, this disc is a god send.....THANK YOU!!! |
i'm glad to hear that you like the way that i changed the installation method. the way we were doing the install before, we had the user performing about 5 wgets and untarring 2 or 3 times. the problem that i saw with installing that way was that it created lots of extented breaks where the user had to stop the installation process to perform some lengthy task, and as a result, the rhythm of the install was broken.
i was so frustrated by this that i decided that there had to be a better way. so i consolidated all of the wgets into one .ISO download, and consolidated all of the untarring into one step. that way, once the user has started their install, they only have to take ONE single break while they extract the tarball. then, from that point on, they don't have to stop the install for another big time intensive task.
the idea to modify the entire install process came kind of late to the project, so i had to scramble to change the structure of the tarballs and to rewrite the docs. the end result was that the testers felt the same way that you do -- the new install method is quite a timesaver over the Stage 1/3 install. i'm glad to hear that you like it so much! i spent alot of time trying to streamline the installation process for Jackass! to make it alot more tolerable than performing a Stage 1/3. 
note to anyone else who is overwhelmed by gratitude: see links below. 
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Bob P
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 5:50 am Post subject: |
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JACKASS! MIRRORS WANTED!
If anyone is interested in acting as a public distribution mirror for Jackass!, please contact me by PM.
basically, we need people with nice fat pipes that can host about 1.2 GB of files. our Jackass! Project home page will be the front end for the system, and a mirror page on our site will direct users to their choice of mirror.
there are all sorts of details that would need to be met to become a mirror, mostly related to technical aspects of file hosting, agreements not to post ads on the mirrors, making all of the files available to the public and not just to subscribers, etc.
please send me a PM if you're interested.
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loki99
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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we were just talking on this other thread, whether there would be a noticable performance gain using a JACKASS! install, compared to FC3 on a PII. could someone, please, drop in or explain here to me in a few lines, whether one could expect a speed gain and what acctually would make the difference?
thanks in advance!
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Sith_Happens
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| loki99 wrote: | we were just talking on this other thread, whether there would be a noticable performance gain using a JACKASS! install, compared to FC3 on a PII. could someone, please, drop in or explain here to me in a few lines, whether one could expect a speed gain and what acctually would make the difference?
thanks in advance!
loki99 |
DISCLAIMER: Note I'm not implying that Jackass! is somehow a distro in itself, I'm making this comparison as Gentoo installed with a Jackass! stage vs. the Fedora Core 3 base install. These are also superficial observations, I haven't benchmarked the two installations, so take my observations with a grain of salt.
Here is what I can tell from the release notes for Fedora Core 3 x86. Both the Jackass! installation stages for Gentoo 2005.0 and a base FC3 install are built using GCC 3.4. So all non-cflag specific performance gains from GCC 3.4 can be gained from both the Jackass! install for Gentoo and a base FC3 install. All I can say concerning cflags is that FC3 for x86 is compiled with pentium4 optimizations that are backwards compatible, i.e. -mtune=pentium4 (since it uses gcc 3.4.3). NPTL support wasn't specifically mentioned in this release, but I went back to the FC2 release and saw that NPTL support was only included for i686 processors. NPTL vs. linuxthreads is a big jump, and the fact that both Gentoo installed from a Jackass! stage and FC3 will have NPTL support narrows the performance gap by a great deal. So, as for performance gains between Gentoo installed with a Jackass! stage and FC3, I can say that both will have simaler features on a Pentium II, that is both will have GCC 3.4.3 and NPTL support. I can see three big differences that are worth mentioning:
1) Although I couldn't tell you specifically what cflags the toolchain is compiled with in FC3, it is probably more conservative than those we compiled Jackass! with. Some of our flags are stripped by the ebuilds themselves (i.e. -O3 is stripped to -O2), however some of the redundant gcc optimization level 3 options we add the the CFLAGS (such as -fweb) are still going to be there. These optimizations are probably pretty minor IMHO, and although you may get a quantitative performance enhancement, that doesn't mean that you'll neccesarily notice it on a daily basis.
2) However, Jackass! stages are compiled with -march=pentium2 and the redundant -mtune=pentium2. This should give you a noticable performance increase over -mtune=pentium4 on a Pentium II. These benefits should be seen on all architectures, not Just the Pentium II, since we use more architecture specific optimiztions.
3) One's Gentoo and the other is Fedora Core 3!  That means that you get the benefits of Gentoo vs. Fedora Core 3, which are of course numerous (Portage and USE flags being the biggest IMHO). These will save you a bunch of time, frustration, and help you create a more flexible yet task optimized system, which correlates to some performance, space, and even security benefits. These benefits are of course not specific to Gentoo installed from Jackass! install stages, so this could be seen as a general reason to choose Gentoo over Fedora Core 3.
In the end I would say that the biggest performance gain you going to see on a PII between the two will come partly from more aggressive cflags, and mostly from more architecture specific optimzation (i.e. -march=pentium2 vs -mtune=pentium4). I will be the first to point out that cflag optimization is over rated within the Gentoo community, so don't think the fact that we use "more aggressive" cflags is going to give you that much of a performance boost. However the fact that we optimize for specific architectures is going to give you a noticable performance increase, more noticable on slower arches but certainly still there even on a P4. I'll put this into the other thread as well. Hope that helps.
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loki99
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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thanks a lot Sith_Happens! that was what i was hoping for.  |
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Bob P
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Location: Jackass! Development Labs
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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MIRROR ANNOUNCEMENT:
We are happy to announce that we have had two web hosts volunteer their service in support of Open Source Software Development by acting as file-download mirrors for The Jackass! Project.
Two Authorized Download Mirrors for The Jackass! Project went on-line today. At present, Jackass! is being hosted on three download mirrors that have very fat pipes.
I would like to acknowledge the following people who have been generous enough to provide file hosting services for the project. The new mirrors are administrated by Eric Davis and James Dio.
| Code: |
Host: URL: Location: Notes:
---------- ------------------------------ --------- -------------------------------------------
Eric Davis http://compuextreme.com USA - CA Free Hosting Plans for Open Source projects
James Dio http://psunit.com USA - NJ PS-Unit Mirror for OSS Projects
Ryan Lynch http://bluebox.student.umd.edu USA - MD Jackass! Project Development Team
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To facilitate finding the files on the mirrors, The Jackass! Project website at http://jackass.homelinux.org has direct download links to the mirrored files on its download page.
We are still looking for additional mirrors to support distribution of The Jackass! Project. If you would be interested in supporting OSSD by providing a mirror for The Jackass! Project, please send me a Personal Message via the Gentoo Forums. Optimally, we would like to add an additional USA mirror (preferably in the Midwest) and a European mirror.
Thanks!
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Bob P
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| loki99 wrote: | | we were just talking on this other thread, whether there would be a noticable performance gain using a JACKASS! install, compared to FC3 on a PII. could someone, please, drop in or explain here to me in a few lines, whether one could expect a speed gain and what acctually would make the difference? |
here's my two cents on the subject:
Sith has hit the nail on the head. There are specific optimizations that Jackass! offers in its toolkit that are probably more bleeding-edge than FC3, but in all honesty, CFLAG optimizations aren't as important as the Gentoo Ricers would like to believe.
One thing that's important to consider is that Jackass! is just Gentoo with GCC 3.4.3 and NPTL. Its not a new distro, and its not a sub-distro. There is nothing about Jackass! that makes it unique over Gentoo -- anybody using Gentoo can build the equivalent of the Jackass! Toolkit by just performing a Stage 1/3 install on their architecture. So to be fair, this is a Gentoo / FC3 comparison, not a Jackass! / FC3 comparison -- in this case that we're talking about a subset of Gentoo that's in the testing branch that has GCC 3.4.3 + NPTL instead of the standard GCC 3.3.5 - NPTL toolkit.
Sith's point about specific compilation for -march=pentium2 vs. -mtune=pentium4 is significant. a P2 box should run native P2 code (without the additional useless P3 & P4 code) alot faster than it should run P4-optimized code in compatability mode. THAT should offer a perceptible performance increase, as every Gentoo/Jackass! binary should be smaller.
I would add one other comment in response to electrofreak's comments that nobody seems to have picked-up on:
| electrofreak wrote: | I never used FC, but I've used other binary distros. I found a large performance increase when switching to Gentoo. I don't think it's all in the lack of useless services running. The fact that packages are compiled specifically for your arch helps a lot.
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The place where Jackass!/Gentoo should provide tangible performance improvements over FC3 is in the area of USE flag optimization. A source code distro like Gentoo allows you to bypass entire blocks of useless code at compile time. In contrast, a binary distro compiles everything and creates unnecessary blocks of code in the binaries. the term for that is CODE BLOAT.  that's where a source based distro will beat a binary based distro every time.
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Sith_Happens
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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I've put in my two cents concerning your comment in the other thread, but I'll leave that discussion there instead of carrying on the conversation in two threads simultaneously. 
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southpaw
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hey guys,
I know you guys discussed this before on a different thread I just can't remember for the life of me where it was, so I apologize in advance for rehashing the subject. What are your suggestions or opinions on the subject of properly updating the system on regular interval from a maintainer or adiministrators perspective?? If you don't want to go over it here I understand, but could someone kindly point me in the direction of the correct link or links...
...I seem to remember reading one of the threads that you posted Bob, but like I said before, I can't remember where  ...
thanx
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imp
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Joined: 03 Dec 2002
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Um, a stupid question maybe, but is reiser4 included on install cd's, ie. kernel and userland tools?
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Sade
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| southpaw wrote: | Hey guys,
I know you guys discussed this before on a different thread I just can't remember for the life of me where it was, so I apologize in advance for rehashing the subject. What are your suggestions or opinions on the subject of properly updating the system on regular interval from a maintainer or adiministrators perspective?? If you don't want to go over it here I understand, but could someone kindly point me in the direction of the correct link or links...
...I seem to remember reading one of the threads that you posted Bob, but like I said before, I can't remember where ...
thanx |
check this thread by hielvc
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Sade
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Sith_Happens
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| imp wrote: | | Um, a stupid question maybe, but is reiser4 included on install cd's, ie. kernel and userland tools? |
We don't support Reiser4 for a reason, search around the forums and I think you'll find it is over hyped and not nearly worth the trouble.
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Bob P
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| southpaw wrote: | Hey guys,
I know you guys discussed this before on a different thread I just can't remember for the life of me where it was, so I apologize in advance for rehashing the subject. |
i did a search for "system update script" and found lots of hits. if that doesn't work for you, there's a link in the Stage 1/3 Guide.
personally, i don't update all that often. if you're running a stable branch world, and everything works fine, what's the point? having spent months watching a fleet of computers compile for days on end, compiling has lost its novelty for me. i won't do it unless i need to.
here's the way i look at it:
- i emerge --sync daily
- i see no point in recompiling stable branch packages that are not broken just to have the "latest" version.
- i always sync before i install a new package. as long as i'm compiling, i might as well have the current package.
- i do not update the toolkit on a box that is running fine unless there is a compelling reason to do so.
to me, a bugfix doesn't qualify as a good reason to rebuild a system if i haven't been hit by the bug. i have quite a few boxes in use that had Stage 1/3 installs performed on them in the pre-Jackass! days. i don't feel any compelling need to force an old box into a LONG compiling chore if its working properly. that just seems to be a waste of time.
regarding hiel and minderaser's scripts -- i use them. when i do get the urge to update a system they're very handy -- especially if you use the commands that provide for updating the packages in the world group while excluding the packages in the system group. Gentoo's emerge command doesn't do that. maybe the Gentoo devs should consider making that a command line option. 
as far as toolkit updates go, i'll use the scripts if i feel the need to perform a minor update for a bugfix, but if i'm rebuilding the toolkit, i still prefer to do each step manually. i just prefer the hands-on approach.
when you consider that a "complete" update involves updating the world files, depcleaning, and revdep-rebuilding, its a real chore. i set aside a weekend for the job, and i do it no more often than once a month.
hth.
PS -- i hope that you guys realized that you've dragged me back into OTW after months of abstinence. i must resist... 
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southpaw
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Bob,
I just got done reading "heil" and "minderasers" scripts thread and I was wondering if they were the same, or is one better than the other, and if so which one do you prefer? Not deviate too much but I have to say that on the subject of updating, I'm not in a big hurry to update what I've got. I mean, after so many years of being locked into that windoze frustration, I am truly blown away by how much faster my system runs now with Gentoo post Jackass!. As it stands now, my little Centrino Laptop @ 1.5GHz just about smokes my brothers desktop w/ his Pentium4 @ 3GHz running WinXP Home  . In other words, I guess you could say that I'm pretty content with my current setup, I was just thinking about necessatative updating if there is such a thing. Correct me if I'm wrong though, but I don't think I really need to update my toolchain, the only things that I thought I had to update in the future are my packages and portage, but like I said correct me if I'm wrong....
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r0shi
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| is the config file for the default kernel anywhere on the disc? i couldnt find it |
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Sith_Happens
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| r0shi wrote: | | is the config file for the default kernel anywhere on the disc? i couldnt find it |
What kernel are you talking about? You have to configure your own kernel for your system (or use genkernel). If you are talking about the install cd kernel, the config is in portage as livecd-kconfigs.
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Bob P
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| r0shi wrote: | | is the config file for the default kernel anywhere on the disc? i couldnt find it |
afaik, gentoo distribution media doesn't come with a default kernel configuration file, so jackass doesn't either.
if you have any other support requests, please try to post them to the Official Support Thread. you may get a more timely response there. limiting our support responses to the support thread also offers other users the added convenience of having to look in only one place when they're trying to find support-related information.
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Bob P
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| southpaw wrote: | Hey Bob,
I just got done reading "heil" and "minderasers" scripts thread and I was wondering if they were the same, or is one better than the other, and if so which one do you prefer? Not deviate too much but I have to say that on the subject of updating, I'm not in a big hurry to update what I've got. I mean, after so many years of being locked into that windoze frustration, I am truly blown away by how much faster my system runs now with Gentoo post Jackass!. As it stands now, my little Centrino Laptop @ 1.5GHz just about smokes my brothers desktop w/ his Pentium4 @ 3GHz running WinXP Home . In other words, I guess you could say that I'm pretty content with my current setup, I was just thinking about necessatative updating if there is such a thing. Correct me if I'm wrong though, but I don't think I really need to update my toolchain, the only things that I thought I had to update in the future are my packages and portage, but like I said correct me if I'm wrong.... |
i don't have a preference for one over the other. i'd just recommend reading the support thread for those scripts and trying them out to see which one you like the best.
on the subject of performance comparisons with Gentoo/Jackass! vs. Windows XP, obsidianblackhawk told me that he got some amazing results when benchmarking glxgears on two identical configured P4 systems. IIRC, he said that the framerate number for Jackass! was about 3x the framerate number for an identical computer running XP. 
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Iron_DragonLord
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Sorry if this was psoted before, but large posts and words scare me and I admit I didn't read through this whole topic (yet).
| Quote: | I think you should make the installation guide in html version as well coz people cant follow the installation guide if they use 'links' from the bootup cd.
my 2cent |
You can use Google to view the PDF document as HTML.
I'm not sure exactly how, there might be a secrtion within google, but if you just plain search for it and it pops up in the return list there's usually a "View as HTML" link for PDF documents.
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Sith_Happens
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| Iron_DragonLord wrote: | Sorry if this was psoted before, but large posts and words scare me and I admit I didn't read through this whole topic (yet).
| Quote: | I think you should make the installation guide in html version as well coz people cant follow the installation guide if they use 'links' from the bootup cd.
my 2cent |
You can use Google to view the PDF document as HTML.
I'm not sure exactly how, there might be a secrtion within google, but if you just plain search for it and it pops up in the return list there's usually a "View as HTML" link for PDF documents.
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That's only true if the googlebot reads the pdf file and, and google caches and converts the pdf. Right now the Jackass! server has various measures in place that prevent Google from doing this kind of thing, for different reasons.
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nightmorph
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Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| Sith_Happens wrote: | | That's only true if the googlebot reads the pdf file and, and google caches and converts the pdf. Right now the Jackass! server has various measures in place that prevent Google from doing this kind of thing, for different reasons. |
Thank goodness for robots.txt files!  I use 'em on my site. They're so handy, especially for preventing Google's hated page caching.
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