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fallow
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:29 pm    Post subject: what do U want from love-sources and the world :) Reply with quote

Hey .

Im thinking a lot about the sense of making patchsets , and some from U propably know that Im currently making a love-sources also.

Q1. Is even the sense of making patchsets ?
What is the reason of making a patchsets . Users using it even without knowledge what the patches in it doing and working ?
Q2. On the forum is/was some kind of race . If for example is the mega boombastic patch v100 I must have mega boombastic patch v101 . and What are doing this mega boombastic patch ? I dont know but this is mega boombastic.
Q3. I think we have in love-sources _really_ too much patches from the world. More patches , more unstable and untested - more error risk.
Q4. The genetic nickscheduler = nickscheduler and this is a placebo effect. I did real testing of genetic nicksched . genetic nicksched is a just nicksched in tests.
simpe things ... latency of genetic adaptability is always longer than scheduler , and adaptability is always a step far to it. also the differencies for rating functions are too small . the fluctuations are like random than intelligent.
I can just use base_timeslice=random(range); LOL hehe...
Q5. Why to use reiser4 ? and superb cpu schedulers ?
You want minimal latency in cpu scheduler yeah ? so why do U using filesystem with more than bigest on the world latencies ? :)
Q6. I have new another conception of future for love-sources with _really_ rethinked patchlist , but If You will like it ? I dont know :) I have in mind the things like : cut any placebos genetics . Genetics will be maybe good in 2020 Year. Now with the current potential the thins for desktop should be predictable . Cut the reiser4 support. CUT all things like swusp2 :)

OMG Im a little done :)

Let the sunshine....let the sunshine in ...the sunshine in........ :)

Greetings to Andriy Schevchenko for beaty good return in Milan - Inter , and Andrea Pirlo for beaty free kicks . and DIDA for beaty parades.

Greetings to Troll , Lovechild and Arsen for the all
Greetings to the Cokehabit for all . :)
Greetings to the CiarianM ( even everythings I must agreed in one thing , the reiser4 )
Greetings to Darckness , Predatorfrek and All POLISH FORUM FRIENDS :)
OMG GREETINGS TO ALL mods team from the forum and forum users.
Greetings to the Nick Piggin and Con Kolivas - yes Im bodhisattva now.
Greeting to the Agata Jamróz , Magda Bene¶
Greetings to Greetings :)

a sceenplay by Teddy Freddy
a fallow was played by Halle Berry
a Predator was played by Predatorfrek
a Mickey Mouse was played by Marvey The Martian
a Pluto dog was played by Duffy Duck.

and greetings to the letter "o" "k" and numbers "9" and "11"
cheers :)


[EDIT]
Let togheter kick out the crap/evil from the world :D :)
[/EDIT]

ps .Evil Dark Archon not You :)
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Last edited by fallow on Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Naib
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok no more drugs for that man
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what I most do not like from gentoo-dev-sources is that, after every kernel update I need to reemerge few packages... I like some of patchsets for providing patches with drivers I need (I doesn't mean that everybody is using them ;-) ). [it doesn't have be a problem for you dear reader. It's just me - I personally wants to have everything in place :P ]

IMHO - the best would be building a patchset _over_ gentoo-dev-sources (or at least most of what our devs are providing to us). Obvious - patchset couldn't be big and cannot conflicts with this what is there already.

For your question(s): what I would like to see, is not a "big" patchset, it doesn't have to be super-bombastic.
- More stable one, than experimental.
- With drivers in it!!
- Performance patches -> only tested :)
- scheduler via USE flag (why not??)
- without reiser4 (or only in USE flag.... but I'm against to put it into the kernel)

My iBook has only 128 MB, so it's painfull to have gentoo on it (but it's there). When I buy more RAM, I interested in testing this 'new' love on ppc [or vivid ;-) whatever will come fallow]

Regards,
Przemek
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Deranger
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, my thoughts of custom patchsets in general:

<rant>

* Lack of QA. Wait, what QA? :roll:

* Lots of patchset are using the same base. Usually ck-sources with Reiser4, Sofware Suspend 2, you name it...

* Most of the patchsets contains too much patches. More untested stuff equals to a bigger risk of problems. Let's reverse all the mega boombastic patches, that's a big improvement.

* All of this genetic stuff is "cool", but really, is it any better? I highly doubt it. This stuff is meant for developers who really understands the code and wants to mess with it. There's no way that genetic scheduling is aimed for typical end-users.

* What comes to Reiser4, well, ask from Ciaran McCreesh... ;)

</rant>

Before I was living on the edge, used nitro-sources, experimental C{XX}FLAGS and Reiser4. After reading some of Ciaran's posts, I realized that ricing just breaks things and nothing really works.

Now using Gentoo with a sane C{XX}FLAGS, ck-sources and ext-3. However, I really miss all the lockups and broken code from the ricing era of mine. ;)

EDIT: Spelling mistakes...
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i92guboj
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Megabooms are useless for me. I just want a stable system, and if i need any adictional feature then I patch for that.

I personally dont like having a lot of unstable stuff that i will mostly never use at all, and adds a lot of buggs into the system core. Not a good thing.

Saying this I dont want to bother anyone, I know how hard and time consuming is the patching task, and maintaining such a thing like love or nitro is not easy, so from here I thanks the maintainers of these packs, and of course Con Kolivas. These are usefull for lots of people, so it is good to have these things, but I don't use them because I dont need a so big amount of stuff into the kernel.

I use ext3 because reiser (all versions) is so heavy on my cpu and a bit unstable on some machines, and ext3 works always on all circumstances. I dont use things like swsusp, since I need to have a way to control who and when logs into the machines, anyway it is not a hyper stable thing nor something similar. The only non standard thing i really need is the cfq and preempt stuff.
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fallow
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah...YEah.... more sunshine to the world :)

Just close the matrix :) Just enter the hidden but real and true dimension . just return to the earth :)

Let the sunshine .....let the sunshine in....the sunshine in.... :)
Guys Im not on any drugs :) :)

Im just listening to the music :) and having a little crazy martian in the brain :)

Poople , please enjoy to the party and tell more :) this is not an aprill foos ......

the good thing is to having a balance beetwen the things :)

About one things Genetics - this is the thing which I understand :P :) I had genetics algorithms , A.I and neuron networks at the Uni :P . for me there was an experiement just .. and now I know ,. My port of J.Moilanen code is doing nothing better than just Nicksched. Genetic Zaphod gl4 based can be good for the servers maybe. but not for destkops.

Please give more opinions about everythings related to things in this thread :)

cheers.
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i92guboj
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oktane wrote:
Well, my thoughts of custom patchsets in general:

<rant>

* Lack of QA. Wait, what QA? :roll:

* Lots of patchset are using the same base. Usually ck-sources with Reiser4, Sofware Suspend 2, you name it...

* Most of the patchsets contains too much patches. More untested stuff equals to a bigger risk of problems. Let's reverse all the mega boombastic patches, that's a big improvement.

* All of this genetic stuff is "cool", but really, is it any better? I highly doubt it. This stuff is meant for developers who really understands the code and wants to mess with it. There's no way that genetic scheduling is aimed for typical end-users.

* What comes to Reiser4, well, ask from Ciaran McCreesh... ;)

</rant>

Before I was living on the edge, used nitro-sources, experimental C{XX}FLAGS and Reiser4. After reading some of Ciaran's posts, I realized that ricing just breaks things and nothing really works.

Now using Gentoo with a sane C{XX}FLAGS, ck-sources and ext-3. However, I really miss all the lockups and broken code from the ricing era of mine. ;)

EDIT: Spelling mistakes...

This is mine, I agree with you as you can see:
Code:

CFLAGS="-O2 -march=athlon-xp -pipe"
CXXFLAGS="${CFLAGS}"
LDFLAGS="-Wl,-O1 -Wl,-z,now"
MAKEOPTS="-j2"


I had also the speed fever time ago, but it is a thing that the time cures (usually, thou there are some people that inmune to the learning process). Really, any other thing that this in the CFLAGS is just a door to the unstability and lockups, etc. The real improvement for me is in a set of well adjusted USE flags, that makes apps smaller, and having to link against less things make the apps faster also.

Every programmer has a (moreless) clear vission of which flags works well with his/her program(s), and no one should change this (except for the arch settings, that anyway dont usually do not represent a big improvement).

Changing subject: someone stated above something about controlling the patchs in the kernel with USE flags. This would be a great work. But surely would represent a big improvement in how users deal with kernel patchs. That would make most alternative sources useless, or, at least, would reduce things like ck-sources to meta packages, that would hold a set of many other patchs already in portage. This way we could do with two or three kernel sources (say vanilla, gentoo-sources and, of course, others like the specific packs for others archs), and many patches that anyone could be able to apply on a transparent manner. This would be awesome. :D
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DrWoland
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stop smoking crack, fallow. I guess I have no real reason to use Love now that I've switched away from RR4, so I'll just look into the more generic patchsets, like mm and cko...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: what do U want from love-sources and the world :) Reply with quote

fallow wrote:

Greetings to Troll , Lovechild and Arsen for the all
Greetings to the Cokehabit for all . :)
Greetings to the CiarianM ( even everythings I must agreed in one thing , the reiser4 )
Greetings to Darckness , Predatorfrek and All POLISH FORUM FRIENDS :)
OMG GREETINGS TO ALL mods team from the forum and forum users.
Greetings to the Nick Piggin and Con Kolivas - yes Im bodhisattva now.
Greeting to the Agata Jamróz , Magda Bene¶
Greetings to Greetings :)

a sceenplay by Teddy Freddy
a fallow was played by Halle Berry
a Predator was played by Predatorfrek
a Mickey Mouse was played by Marvey The Martian
a Pluto dog was played by Duffy Duck.


Woot, I'm a predator!
/me gets out his metal spear and hunts the governor of california

Also, It seems as though the world is FINALLY seeing stuff as I do, cutting the crap and fancy stuff which introduces problems. Now, if only the entire world would convert to atheism!

Edit:
6thpink wrote:
This is mine, I agree with you as you can see:
Code:

CFLAGS="-O2 -march=athlon-xp -pipe"
CXXFLAGS="${CFLAGS}"
LDFLAGS="-Wl,-O1 -Wl,-z,now"
MAKEOPTS="-j2"


Heres mine

Code:
export CXXFLAGS="-pipe -fomit-frame-pointer -march=i386 -mcpu=i386"
export CFLAGS="-pipe -fomit-frame-pointer -march=i386 -mcpu=i386"


I'm on slackware, so I export them via a little system i setup which imports settings from /etc/make.conf.
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a13x
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well .... I like the love-sources as they are NOW, without modifications. Reiser4 has been my root partition FS for 2 months now without ANY problems so I'm not going to change it. I think it's superior to ext2/3 and reiserfs (I can't say anything about JFS, XFS since I haven't tested them) and I have tested this. Porthole loads the Portage database noticeably faster and my CPU is good enough for it to work properly.

About all the genetic stuff .... I dunno if it increases speed in any way because I haven't done benchmarks, but I'm a fan of all bleeding edge things so I like to have the possibility to try it.


fallow, the sense of making this patch set is improving the Linux experience for everyone. Not everybody is able to make such a patch set but many can patch and compile a kernel. If people are ignorant and don't read the documentation about the patches than that is their problem, not yours.
It all depends on the audience. AFAIK the morph sources are intended for the normal desktop users. They are meant to bring stability (the most important) and speed. The love-sources target the tech savvy IMO. You can't have a patch set that works on every machine and is stable and bleeding edge at the same time. It's not possible. You have to sacrifice something in favor of something else. And I prefer to sacrifice stability for bleeding edge.

Just my 2 cents.
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ashtophet
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's see what my precarious english allows me to express...

- First time (and every time after that) i was about compile love-sources i didn't expect it to be the most stable kernel patchset (even though it was/is for me reasonly stable, some weeks of uptimes doing whatever i do in my computer)... i wasn't looking for stability... Compiled a love-sources release and didn't work? i will continue using old release, waiting for next one. love-sources now aimed to stability? well, someone (name cannot be written... armagedon could come down and flame us all) will be thinking of compiling it... i liked more the love-sources:"patchset that $[unwrittable name] won't ever compile" motto.

- Desktop oriented patchset, with some good tested performance patches, cointaining not many patches... uh... ck-sources? cko?


- Drop reiser(ricer?)4? Well, i've a reiser4 partition (not / ), and i didn't suffer any trouble... Someone thinks reiserfs it's a crappy filesystem? Breaks him/her things? Just don't use it. Ricing? Ricing would be saying reiser4 is the best (or worst?) fs on the earth (and mostly universe), and you're superextramegacool for using it... I am just saying: here it works fine, i have no reason to quit using it.

- Genetic implementations (either cpu and io sheds)... Pretty same as above... Ricing? Here those implementations are working really great... Subjectiveness? Well, i can only write about my experiences (subjectiveness), i didn't compile love-sources on the entire world's computers... Placebo effect? Well placebo is used to heal some kind of diseases... so it works for what it is intended for. [of course Placebo also sang: Protect me from what I want ]

One more statement: IMHO, ricing is not to use concrete agressive flags, or some kinda experimental software; force things to see when (and how) they break it's, sometimes, an interesting thing... Ricing is to say it is the biggest coolness anyone can reach, and that if you don't do so, you're a coward, a little girl/boy on a dark forest (probably being hunted by $[unwrittable name]).

well, sorry for english outrage...

cheers

Edit. Started writting before reading a13x post... i absolutely subscribe what it is said there


Last edited by ashtophet on Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:37 am; edited 2 times in total
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DrWoland
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallow, I guess the question is, what do YOU want from Love sources? Genetic stuff aside, everything worked for me, but I have all top of the line (or at least I think so) hardware, including an NVidia video card. I personally have turned against RR4, so in my opinion, cutting RR4 wouldn't be a big loss, as I think it's time the Gentoo community simply turned and walked away from what appears to be a failed attempt at a revolution. Everything else - well I don't know enough about all that. I'll do some reading and get back to you.

For now, I guess, just take it easy and get some rest :)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would dump reiser4. If people want reiser4 they can patch their own kernel. I would also ask the users what patches they specifically use and try to find out how many people use particular patches. If many people don't use certain patches dump them. If the patches cause more problems than what they are worth...dump them. I would simplify patchsets. People don't need nor want a million patches within their kernel. It just causes instability and a lot of work for the maintainer.
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a13x
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dropping Reiser4 support in the patch set wouldn't be fair for us, the users. Just because some of you had bad experiences with it and hate it, doesn't mean it sucks. I like it and it does it's job for me and I'm not going to change it. It would be a stupid thing to reinstall Gentoo just because my favourite patch-set dropped Reiser4 support. No way !


I suggest another approach. Why should love-sources cut on quality (less patches) ? Cut the quantity ! That means no more releases for rcX kernels, just for 2.6.12, 2.6.13 and so on. This way, you get to work less on the patch set and stability increases.

And galiza_ceive made a good point. If the current patch doesn't work for you downgrade and wait for the new one.
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ashtophet
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a13x wrote:
I suggest another approach. Why should love-sources cut on quality (less patches) ? Cut the quantity ! That means no more releases for rcX kernels, just for 2.6.12, 2.6.13 and so on. This way, you get to work less on the patch set and stability increases.


absolutely agreed

cheers

Edit1. [redundant]If users compile love-sources they do it for what it is (and was) by now... It seems that some love-sources users didn't like what they compiled (and still, they compiled every new release)... which is pretty disconcertant[/redundant]
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fallow
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PLEASE Guys look into this thread : https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-322898.html

cheers :)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is understood that many bleeding edge patches have a unmeasurable improvement.

The real improvements are due to rewrites of parts like the schedulers.
Nickshed and Staircase are a very noticable improvement.

For a long time love-sources was the only or at least most prominent source for a current nicksched.
That is why i still like using love-sources. When something significant new comes out, i want to be there.
If a new patch is just a nice placebo or a real improvemnt takes a while to see.

The genetics (as they stand for adaptive regulation of kernel params) are a good idea, and even though it has no measurable benefit it might be still a path worth following.

I think bleeding-edge patches mostly dont harm. some complie - some not. That is part of the experience.
Its quite interesting to have the newest bleeding-edge kernel. While the rush is just a lot about excitement and emotions its not worthless.
bleeding-edge patchsets allow to test everything that available. before ideas are thrown away they get tested.

for me love sources should not switch directions.
some compile some not. have not lost anything by using them yet.


greetings and thanks to fallow and all love-sources maintainers for their good work :)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everybody who wants _only_ stability forgets that you only can achieve stability if somebody tests the thing before. If nobody tests it, it doubtly will ever reach a stable state.
another thing:
You would have never known that indeed the genetic stuff doesnt make any difference and so maybe isnt worth it, without trying it.
You would never now that reiser4 is fast, but is in fact slowing down the overall latencies, without testing it.
etc...

So I think it mainly depends on for which audience you want your patchset to be.
Are you targetting for the majority of the users who just want a nice working, stable kernel for their usual desktop work? Then go the direction you mentioned, cut everything which smells like testing or unstable away.

If you are going to make users happy who want to try out new stuff, who just want to test new things and who can live with an occaisonal oops/segmentation fault just continue as before.

If it is worth to spend all the time and work for the patches, is a question only you yourself can answer ;)

CU
Imago
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
what do U want from love-sources and the world :)

Responsiveness, responsiveness, and more responsiveness. Get rid of the lag. All of it, once and for all. I do not ever want to see my mouse pointer stutter or hear the music skip.
(Oh, and stability and compatibility would be nice as well, but that goes without saying.)

Also, contrary to popular belief, it is possible to have a system that is tweaked for speed and responsiveness without getting into outright riceage. I use reiser3 + kernels patched with staircase (for the most part, nitro), and have been doing so for a while, because, *gasp*, there is actually a noticeable improvement in responsiveness. If a new kernel is crashy, I go back to the previous one. I stay away from CFLAGS because they're pointless, and from rc kernels because they're pointless and tend to crash (the same is probably true of CFLAGS, but I cannot state that from experience as I haven't tried).

So, anyways, the question was, what should you do with love-sources. I don't really see the justification for purging all experimental patches just because it's popular to bash ricers these days. There do exist people who like previewing new technologies before they go mainstream, it's sort of a hobby for them, and I don't think they should be picked on for it. What I would like, however, is fairness in advertising. If you make an experimental patchset, do state in big bold letters that it is going to break, and that they are not to complain (most especially not to the gentoo devs) when it happens.

I personally like the model morph-sources uses: a stable patchset based on the latest stable vanilla kernel, for people who want it to work and be fast, and an experimental patchset for the rcs with all the brand new shiny experimental patches for people who want to, well, experiment. (Of course, there's no requirement for a single patchset to fulfill both these rolls, just try not to confuse which of them you are trying to fulfill.)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

time to lighten things up a bit:

you asked what we want from love-sources and the world...well everyone else answered the love-sources question...so I have one thing I want from the world

CAREBEARS!!!

This random thought, brought to you by CS84

*bows*
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fallow
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to have a pack of chips ( solted just ) .

AH I must get some rest and rethinkg all :)
thanks for the opinions.

cheers :)
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