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Bob P
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hobbit_HK wrote:
Hey Bob! Great guide :)
But... Don't you think we should do "etc-update" or "dispatch-conf" before we start editing the rc config files? Before we do this they'll be in their old version, and will be replaced later when we WILL do dispatch-conf...

i've avoided the topic of updating config files for a couple of reasons --

first, after the initial configuration is performed by the user, there is absolutely no need to update any configuration files during the install process. if a user updates their config files during the install process, they run a very real risk of screwing up the install. they could easily over-write the contents of package.keywords, package.use, locales.build, etc. doing that could really b0rk their installation. OTOH, if the user doesn't do any updates during the install process, that can't happen. so as a safety measure, updates are best left avoided until after the install is finished.

second, this is an advanced installation method. users are expected to know how to deal with updating system files once the install is finished.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't mean that...
When you do emerge -e system, portage upgrades (whether you like it or not) to the newest version of baselayout and such, and if you don't update your config files, you'll edit the ones from the old version...
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hobbit_HK wrote:
I didn't mean that...
When you do emerge -e system, portage upgrades (whether you like it or not) to the newest version of baselayout and such, and if you don't update your config files, you'll edit the ones from the old version...
Thats true, however as far as I remember the changes are trivial, in the commented sections and such. The thing about etc-update is it needs to be done intelligently, and telling everybody to run it without reading and evalutating the config file changes would lead to a lot of trouble.
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JustinHoMi
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The use of hardened GCC 3.4.3 is not recommended on any x86 systems except AMD64.


Why is this? Usually it's the other way around :)
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Search, and you'll find that hardened GCC 3.4.3 is not stable.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustinHoMi wrote:
Quote:
The use of hardened GCC 3.4.3 is not recommended on any x86 systems except AMD64.


Why is this? Usually it's the other way around :)
Because hardened GCC 3.4.3 (including -r1 and the unstable 20050110{-r1,-r2} releases have known bugs that causes them to be unable to rebuild themselves. You end up with a broken compiler, and it's quite difficult to get a working one back.
If you are in this situation, follow my instructions here on how to get a working GCC 3.4.3 back.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, my questions is "why is it recommended on AMD64"?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustinHoMi wrote:
Actually, my questions is "why is it recommended on AMD64"?
"The use of hardened GCC 3.4.3 is not recommended on any x86 systems except AMD64" does NOT mean it is recommended to use on AMD64, it just means it probably will bork your toolchain on any x86 system except AMD64 and it probably will not bork your toolchain on AMD64.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moocha wrote:
JustinHoMi wrote:
Actually, my questions is "why is it recommended on AMD64"?
"The use of hardened GCC 3.4.3 is not recommended on any x86 systems except AMD64" does NOT mean it is recommended to use on AMD64

Some people have the weird mentality that if something is NOT "not recommended", then it must be recommended.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's boolean logic! :D

!(!Recommended) == Recommended
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great guide BobP! I just did my third install of this kind last night (Gnome building now and posting this from links2 :). It works great with love-sources :)

Keep up the good work! :)


Cheers!
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustinHoMi wrote:
It's boolean logic! :D

!(!Recommended) == Recommended


your boolean logic asserts that Hardened GCC 3.4.3 is recommended for AMD 64 systems. true or false, that assertion is moot.

your premise is flawed by the assumption that this installation method is recommended for AMD 64 systems. it is not.


JustinHoMi wrote:
Actually, my questions is "why is it recommended on AMD64"?

This Guide does not cover either Hardened GCC 3.4.3 or installations on AMD 64 systems, so your question is not at all relevant in this thread. Please don't pursue an answer here. To put and end to this tangent within the thread, I'll answer the question anyway:

Hardened GCC 3.4.3 is unstable on all x86 platforms.
Hardened GCC 3.4.3 is only stable on AMD64.
This Guide is for x86 systems only.
This Guide is not for AMD64 systems.

If that isn't enough to convince you, then consider this: Gentoo 2005.0 for AMD64 already comes with GCC 3.4.3, so this Guide is unnecessary. :!:

To make a final point: The Guide says that its for the x86 platform. Maybe you missed it.

Stage 1/3 Installation Guide wrote:
Objective


This Installation Guide will describe how to perform a "Stage 1 on 3" installation of Gentoo on a Pentium-class x86 platform using 2005.0 installation media, a single CD-ROM drive and a single EIDE hard disk. It will take advantage of the latest 2.6 kernels, NPTL threading, udev, and the latest GCC 3.4.3 compiler.


Now that its clear to everyone that this Guide is not intended for AMD64, I hope that this tangential discussion is over. :wink:
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any chance you will be updated this guide for the newly released GCC 4.0? http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-4.0/

Argh. Just started my compilation on Friday, wish I had known GCC 4.0 was out would have waited for an update.
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moocha
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a separate thread for GCC 4.0.
Unless you really, really, really know what you're doing, my advice is to wait for two new minor versions of GCC. At least. GCC 4.0 currently does not produce code that is significantly faster and has some showstopper bugs (for example in the autovectorizer). I personally don't intend to bother with it until GCC 4.1.0, not even on my playground system.
There's currently no easy way to have a remotely stable Gentoo system built with 4.0.
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Bob P
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GCC 4.0? well, no. if you read the GCC 4.0 threads, there are still plenty of problems with GCC 4.0. some ebuilds won't even compile under it.

taking into account the fact that you have to add incompatibility and you don't gain any performance increase, it hardly seems worth the trouble.

remember, this Guide is about building a Gentoo box that has BOTH Speed AND Stability. unfortunately, GCC 4.0 is still not ready for prime time.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:


until i get a chance to update the Guide: everyone please replace the "emerge -e system" statement in the Guide with "emerge -e system && emerge -e system".


With that change wouldn't the statement before it "emerge gcc-config glibc binutils gcc portage" be unneccesary?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slycordinator wrote:
Bob P wrote:


until i get a chance to update the Guide: everyone please replace the "emerge -e system" statement in the Guide with "emerge -e system && emerge -e system".


With that change wouldn't the statement before it "emerge gcc-config glibc binutils gcc portage" be unneccesary?
The idea is to compile everything in the base system at least twice, and compile glibc, binutils, gcc, and portage three times (gcc-config shouldn't be in that emerge statement :wink: ). The reason being to assure that everything is linked correctly, and reduce the errors you'll recieve later on down the line.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, BobP

I really appreciated the detailed explanations of this install method, being new to Gentoo. Thank for this.
However - still being noob - I completly borked my system with the first update (glibc 2.3.5 probably). Reinstall of the previous glibc -2.3.4.20050-125-r1) and kde recompile didn't solve the problem.

So, I've decided to reinstall the whole thing. But the questin now is : how can I ensure, once the reinstall is okay, not to break things again and still benefit of the ebuilds updates ?
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Bob P
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:idea: PLEASE POST ALL SUPPORT REQUESTS IN THE SUPPORT THREAD, NOT IN THIS THREAD. :idea:
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the support thread ats2.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry,
I hadn't seen this :oops:

You may erase my post if you wish : I'll copy it to the support thread.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ats2 wrote:
Sorry,
I hadn't seen this :oops:

You may erase my post if you wish : I'll copy it to the support thread.
You mean, I may erase your post if I could. :wink:
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Bob P
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ats2 wrote:
Sorry,
I hadn't seen this :oops:

You may erase my post if you wish : I'll copy it to the support thread.


Its hard for me to imagine that anyone could have missed the repeated notices that were posted in boldfaced red type on the first page of the thread. Twice. :!:

Stage 1/3 Installation Guide wrote:

Stage 1/3 Installation for Gentoo 2005.0


This is an Update to the Stage 1/3 NPTL Installation Method for Gentoo 2004.3


WARNING: This is an ADVANCED installation method. The amount of time required for you to complete this type of installation will equal or exceed that of any other Gentoo installation method. Your time will be well invested, though, as the result will be a very stable Gentoo system. This installation method may prove to be somewhat difficult and cumbersome for users who are new to Gentoo. It will prove especially painful for users who plan to install Gentoo old hardware.


NOTE: The Documentation, Tips & Tricks Forum is NOT a support forum. If you should encounter problems during your Gentoo installation, please DO NOT post requests for assistance to this thread. Please seek help in the support thread that is dedicated to this installation method.


Faster than a Speeding Bullet...

More Powerful than a Locomotive!


and its even posted again on at the conclusion of the Guide in the section where users are advised where to go for help:

Stage 1/3 Installation Guide wrote:
13. If You Need Help

Remember: The Documentation, Tips & Tricks forum is not a support forum:

Quote:
Documentation, Tips & Tricks
Unofficial documentation for various parts of Gentoo Linux. Note: This is not a support forum.
Moderator: Global Moderators

Please bear in mind that this thread is located in the Documentation, Tips & Tricks Forum, which is not a support forum. For this reason I would like to ask that we limit the context of this thread to posts that discuss problems with the Installation Guide that need to be corrected, or to ideas about how to improve the Stage 1 on 3 installation procedure itself. If you have a problem and you need help, please post your support request in the Official 2005.0 Stage 1 on 3 Support Thread in the Installing Gentoo forum.

At this time this Installation Guide has evolved to a fairly mature state, such that most problems that are likely to be encountered during an install are likely to be related to individual factors not attributable to the Installation Guide. It would seem fair if those who encountered problems with architecture specification, CFLAGS, etc. could post their requests for help in the appropriate support forums. (That way, once your personal support request is resolved, your problem will scroll off into oblivion instead of being preserved here forever, interspersed with this documentation.)


NOTE: Documentation, Tips & Tricks is NOT a support forum. Please do not post installation support requests into this thread. Please post in the support thread that is dedicated to this installation method.


Personally, I don't buy the line that anyone could have not seen the warnings. But just in case it is a problem with invisibility of the warnings, and not a problem with people intentionally diregarding them, I thought I'd re-post them yet another time.

:roll:
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobP > I said I was sorry. Okay ? What can I do or say now ?
Just forget me if you feel you can't forgive such a crime (!), and everything's right.

Oh my, I have this smiley too : :roll:
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ats2 wrote:
BobP > I said I was sorry. Okay ? What can I do or say now ?
Just forget me if you feel you can't forgive such a crime (!), and everything's right.

Oh my, I have this smiley too : :roll:
Don't worry, he does this at the drop of a hat. No hard feelings eh? :wink:
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