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TobiWan
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 12:36 pm    Post subject: Copyleft please. Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
in response to my decision not to allow PDF transcripts of the Stage 1/3 Guide on other websites, people are now interested in creating "blog" versions of the Guide on third party sites. i guess this is one case where if people think they have a loophole, they will try to drive a truck through it. just to be clear:

The Stage 1/3 Installation Guide is a Copyrighted document. All Rights are reserved by the author. Rights for reproduction and distribution of said document are granted to the Gentoo Discussion Forums and the Gentoo Foundation. Rights for reproduction and distribution of the Stage 1/3 Installation Guide in any format are expressly denied to all other parties.


In the interest of the OSS spirit you should rethink your copyright and maybe change it to copyleft or creative commons. Other than that I appreciate your efforts and explanations. Nice work.

regards,
Tobias
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Copyleft please. Reply with quote

TobiWan wrote:
Bob P wrote:
in response to my decision not to allow PDF transcripts of the Stage 1/3 Guide on other websites, people are now interested in creating "blog" versions of the Guide on third party sites. i guess this is one case where if people think they have a loophole, they will try to drive a truck through it. just to be clear:

The Stage 1/3 Installation Guide is a Copyrighted document. All Rights are reserved by the author. Rights for reproduction and distribution of said document are granted to the Gentoo Discussion Forums and the Gentoo Foundation. Rights for reproduction and distribution of the Stage 1/3 Installation Guide in any format are expressly denied to all other parties.


In the interest of the OSS spirit you should rethink your copyright and maybe change it to copyleft or creative commons. Other than that I appreciate your efforts and explanations. Nice work.

regards,
Tobias
I like that idea. But the stage 1/3 guide is entirely Bob P's work, so the distribution license (if any) is up to him.
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as long as you cite the author its not an infringement is it? For example.....

The following is an excerpt from Bob P's guide hosted on forums.gentoo.org entitled "blah blah":

yada yada
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TobiWan
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naveg wrote:
as long as you cite the author its not an infringement is it? For example.....

The following is an excerpt from Bob P's guide hosted on forums.gentoo.org entitled "blah blah":

yada yada


I disagree. Citing is not publishing large excerpts.

It's great we have such a nice documentation about how to perform this kind of installation yet I really am sorry that this documentation is in violation with core principles of the Gentoo foundation and FOSS in general.

If it's personal fame the author wants he can still use the FDL and its invariant sections rules and at the same time offer something under an acceptable license that others can improve and republish.

Nevertheless, this is his decision since he is the author. For the future I would like to see only acceptable licensed works in the Gentoo forums though. I don't see why forums to free and open software should publish non-free documentation.

regards,
Tobias
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TobiWan wrote:

I disagree. Citing is not publishing large excerpts.

It's great we have such a nice documentation about how to perform this kind of installation yet I really am sorry that this documentation is in violation with core principles of the Gentoo foundation and FOSS in general.

If it's personal fame the author wants he can still use the FDL and its invariant sections rules and at the same time offer something under an acceptable license that others can improve and republish.

Nevertheless, this is his decision since he is the author. For the future I would like to see only acceptable licensed works in the Gentoo forums though. I don't see why forums to free and open software should publish non-free documentation.

regards,
Tobias


I remeber reading something about it being released under gpl-compatible license when it´s finished. Until then the only places entities allowed to publish it are gentoo foundation and gentoo forums.
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ravv wrote:

I remeber reading something about it being released under gpl-compatible license when it´s finished.


Which means that nobody can add or improve the documentation but the author.

In my opinion this thing is well written and could be extended to be integrated as an official yet still optional way of installing Gentoo Linux in the official Gentoo handbook.

I'll give the thing a try in about two weeks when I have more time to do a clean Gentoo installation on a spare machine.

regards,
Tobias
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TobiWan wrote:
It's great we have such a nice documentation about how to perform this kind of installation yet I really am sorry that this documentation is in violation with core principles of the Gentoo foundation and FOSS in general.
...
For the future I would like to see only acceptable licensed works in the Gentoo forums though. I don't see why forums to free and open software should publish non-free documentation. (emphasis added)

The Stage 1/3 Installation Method's documentation is NOT in violation of the core principles of the Gentoo foundation, so i'm rather surprised to hear you say that. i am not the first person to copyright their work in Documentation, Tips & Tricks, and i probably won't be the last.

on a bigger scale, if you scroll down to the bottom of this page, you'll see that the Gentoo Foundation Inc. has Copyrighted everything on this site, and that this site has not been released under any sort of free documentation license. my copyright notice has only served to restate what the Gentoo Foundation has already established as their policy -- that the contents of this site are copyrighted. :idea:

personally, i don't see much point in returning to this discussion over and over again, as the topic has been addressed already. so i hope that this will be the last time that I have to reply about it. nonetheless, we continue to have our share of people offer opinions without bothering to adequately research the facts before they've spoken. my recommendation would be to get the facts straight before criticizing someone who is giving away their work. you can do this by reading the text of the copyright notice in the PDF document and comparing it to the text of the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 2.0 documentation license. Anyone with the naivety to suggest that I should modify my Copyright notice to look like a Creative Commons copyright will undoubtedly be surprised by what they read. :!:
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TobiWan wrote:
If it's personal fame the author wants he can still use the FDL and its invariant sections rules and at the same time offer something under an acceptable license that others can improve and republish.

People commonly proclaim that "Gentoo is about choice." I agree, and I think that "choice" is a good thing. In fairness to the people who are exercising creativity and creating novel works, they should have just as much power of choice to determine how their work product will be published / distributed / licensed -- especially if they're giving their work away. People who give away their time and their intellectual property should be free to give it away on their own terms, and they should not be compelled to give away their work on someone else's terms -- that would be the equivalent of slavery. Personally, I will stop helping people before I will become a slave to some master who dictates that I should work on his terms and receive only what he thinks is appropriate compensation for my efforts.
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TobiWan wrote:
For the future I would like to see only acceptable licensed works in the Gentoo forums though. I don't see why forums to free and open software should publish non-free documentation.

Revisiting again the topic of "choice" --

1. Gentoo has the choice of allowing anyone to publish here under any copyright and/or license arrangement that Gentoo sees fit. I don't see that Gentoo has anything to gain by having their choices restricted in the manner you've suggested.

2. If someone were to bar the publication of copyrighted works on the Gentoo Forums, that would only serve to diminish choice on the part of people who want to contribute -- and the result would be that some people would be less inclined to contribute. This in turn, would result in fewer people contributing to Gentoo -- something along the lines of Rand's "strike of the great minds." IMNSHO making the proposition that the Gentoo Forums should ban copyrighted works constitutes a very naive and counter-productive approach to the subject. It only serves to restrict the flow of information.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that if the Gentoo Forums had had a policy in effect which would have prevented me from publishing copyrighted work, then there would have been no Stage 1/3 Installation Method and there would have been no Jackass! Project. (The Jackass! Project, I would like to point out -- is one where I wrote all of the system's configuration specifications and published the Copyrighted works via a GPL license.) Now tell me, would banning copyrighted works be better or worse for the Gentoo Community? That's a rhetorical question. I really don't want an answer, as I think the answer should be obvious to everyone.

Personally, I find it objectionable that when I am giving away my time and effort, that people should be so bold as to complain that I am not giving away enough, or that I am not giving it away in a manner that suits them. Negative reinforcement only serves to diminish the likelihood that desirable behavior will be repeated. :roll:
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boy I must have pissed you off that you replied three times to basically one argument.

I cite from the Gentoo Social contract:

Quote:
Gentoo is and will remain Free Software

We will release our contributions to Gentoo as free software, metadata or documentation, under the GNU General Public License version 2 (or later, at our discretion) or the Creative Commons - Attribution / Share Alike version 2 (or later, at our discretion). Any external contributions to Gentoo (in the form of freely-distributable sources, binaries, metadata or documentation) may be incorporated into Gentoo provided that we are legally entitled to do so. However, Gentoo will never depend upon a piece of software or metadata unless it conforms to the GNU General Public License, the GNU Lesser General Public License, the Creative Commons - Attribution/Share Alike or some other license approved by the Open Source Initiative (OSI).



Fact is, your documentation under your strict copyright is in violation with this core principle of Gentoo. There's no way to argue around this.

Fact is also that this is your good right, since you are the author.

Another fact is however, that I may complain about this, since your documentation is published within the official Gentoo forums where I as a Gentoo user have a right to expect community contributions that apply core Gentoo principles.

I don't see a single reason why you should be pissed off in regard to my statements.

regards,
Tobias
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fully agree with you TobiWan. And besides, what is Bob P gonna do if you copy it anyways? He probably wouldn't even know. And if he did, there's nothing he could do to you. So don't worry about it. He's absolutely wrong, and if you want to reproduce it, i'd say go ahead. Stand up for the spirit of open source. Copyrighted materials kill the open source community.

As a side note for Bob P, your claim that copyrighted materials keeps the open source community thriving is entirely false. What keeps us chugging is people who oppose your way of thinking, people who ENCOURAGE the reproduction and spreading of their works, people who's number one desire is to help others, not to collect fame for their work.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TobiWan wrote:
Boy I must have pissed you off that you replied three times to basically one argument.

I cite from the Gentoo Social contract:

Quote:
Gentoo is and will remain Free Software

We will release our contributions to Gentoo as free software, metadata or documentation, under the GNU General Public License version 2 (or later, at our discretion) or the Creative Commons - Attribution / Share Alike version 2 (or later, at our discretion). Any external contributions to Gentoo (in the form of freely-distributable sources, binaries, metadata or documentation) may be incorporated into Gentoo provided that we are legally entitled to do so. However, Gentoo will never depend upon a piece of software or metadata unless it conforms to the GNU General Public License, the GNU Lesser General Public License, the Creative Commons - Attribution/Share Alike or some other license approved by the Open Source Initiative (OSI).



Fact is, your documentation under your strict copyright is in violation with this core principle of Gentoo. There's no way to argue around this.


i don't think that whether i responded in three brief messages or in one long message really matters. what does matter is that you had said three things in different posts that i felt were worthy of a response, so i decided to respond to each one. we shouldn't get hung up on wheter it was more convenient for me to reply in a single post or in three posts, but for anyone who's interested, replying 3 times, individually, to multiple posts, involved less cut and paste editing on my part than conjoining the posts into one long post. you can color me lazy if you want to. :wink:

i think that you're getting bogged down in details that really don't matter, and you're missing the Big Picture. the Stage 1/3 Installation Guide is nothing more than an installation manual. copyrighted installation manuals are pretty common, even in the open source world. that's part of what makes the Mandrake, SuSE and the other commercial distributions what they are. some people like the manuals for what they are, and some people are willing to pay for them. that's another place where user "choice" comes into play. of course, since i'm following the "free as in beer" principle by not even charging for the Stage 1/3 Installation Guide, the whole concept of paying for manuals is actually a very moot point. what is more important than the manual is the software.

i don't see why anyone should be making so much fuss over the Stage 1/3 Guide. the fact remains that its published here, in the open, where everyone can use it. by exercising a copyright on the work, I'm only serving to prevent somebody else from taking my work that i'm giving away for free, and putting their name on it and selling it. :idea: yes, i've already had one person try to do exactly that. so if you're angry that i decided to put a copyright on my work to prevent some anonymous 3rd party from stealing it and selling it to The World Bank (yes, somebody actually tried to do this), then your dissatisfaction is displaced toward the wrong person. :!:


Quote:
Another fact is however, that I may complain about this, since your documentation is published within the official Gentoo forums where I as a Gentoo user have a right to expect community contributions that apply core Gentoo principles.

i don't disagree with you there either. you have a right to expect community contributions here, and you'll likely find them. but i disagree that you should expect everything that is published on the Gentoo Forums should meet your personal expectations. the world is a heterogeneous place.

the Gentoo Forum Admin are very much aware of what i've been doing with the Stage 1/3 Guide and The Jackass! Project. they haven't seen any problems in what i've been doing and have been very supportive of my efforts. so even though this thread may represent an isolated place in which the Gentoo Forums don't live up to your personal expectations, its not as if you've been unilaterally empowered with the right to stomp-out anything that may be offered here that doesn't meet your personal vision for the Gentoo Forums -- especially when the administration condones it.

Getting back to the "Big Picture," i think that anyone who's up in arms about the Copyright protection on the Stage 1/3 Guide as you seem to be is missing something far more significant -- the Stage 1/3 Installation Method was used to build an entirely new batch of software in The Jackass! Project that blows out-of-the-box Gentoo right out of the water. The Jackass! Project amounts to a "canned" version of the Stage 1/3 Guide, where one of 2 or 3 people did all of the work for you, based on my ideas. The result is a much faster, high performance version of Linux that is based on Gentoo and was given back to the Gentoo Community as a GPL project in support of Gentoo Linux. I was well within my rights to take Jackass! and make it my own sub-distrubution, making it something other than a part of Gentoo. But I didn't do that -- instead, I chose to give Jackass! to the Gentoo Community as a truly Open Source Software project that I gave away under the terms of the GPL version 2. I'm even paying to host my own personal web server to host the Stage 1/3 Guide and The Jackass! Project, which we're giving away under the GPL. If that's not supporting OSS development, I'd like you to offer an example of what is.

So in the BIG PICTURE, I've given one hell of alot more to the Gentoo Community than you're giving me credit for. Yes, I find it objectionable when somebody who hasn't contributed anything significant criticizes my work and claims that I'm not giving enough. In the past few months I've had over 85,000 people download my work and use it to configure their computers. 85,000 people. Personally, I think THAT is a significant contribution for one person to make to the world of OSS.

In response to your complaint, I think its only fair to say that if anyone has any complaints about what I'm giving away, I'll challenge them to a duel -- take your best shot, and do your part to help the Gentoo Community by producing something as good or better instead of just complaining about what somebody else is or isn't doing.

Quote:
I don't see a single reason why you should be pissed off in regard to my statements.

although I did say that I found your arguments objectionable, i never said that i was pissed off, and i find such imprecise characterizations disappointing.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one is upset with your contributions Bob.

Were you referring only to the selling of your work, or to reproduction and distribution in general? I feel that in the spirit of open source and helping others achieve powerful systems, which I know is your goal, I should be able to print your guide off and give it to a friend. Not for money of course, for their and my betterment.

It is wrong to claim that work is yours and take money for it under any sort of license, copyright or not. But do you intend to hinder the spread of your ingenuity and its products?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Bob pointed out,

Taken from the bottom of the page for this very message board:

Quote:
Copyright 2001-2005 Gentoo Foundation, Inc. Designed by Kyle Manna © 2003; Style derived from original subSilver theme. Powered by phpBB 2.0.15-gentoo-p2 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group


So apparently, the board itself is copyrighted by gentoo, the style is copyrighted by a guy, and the product used to implement the board is copyrighted as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What Naveg and TobiWan are saying, and I certainly agree with them, isn't that all things Gentoo shoudn't be copyrighted, it's that they should be distributed under some kind of an OSS style liscense that allows for the free (non-profit) exchange of ideas.

Certainly copyrights are extremely important, and no one is saying that Bob is going against any kind of Gentoo spirit by copyrighting his work. slycordinator is correct in pointing out that Gentoo copyrights the forums, and that phpBB copyrights their work as well.

However, phpBB distributes their work under the GPL v 2, and Gentoo distributes their documentation under the Creative Commons Share Alike license. Both of these are OSS style licenses that allow others to freely distribute and build upon the respective works, and thereby better the OSS community as a whole.

I have no say in how Bob chooses to distribute documentation that he is soley responsible for writing (the Stage 1/3 guide), or even the documentation for the Jackass! project, which I was heavily involved in. However, I do agree with Naveg and TobiWan that documentation on OSS projects should be released under an OSS license. Not doing so is contrary to the spirit of those projects, and detrimental to the OSS community that a project like Jackass! or even Bob's Stage 1/3 guide heavily relies upon.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:31 pm    Post subject: mmm on colinux Reply with quote

i am going use this
and the stuff from
[url]http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-231170-highlight-speed+portage+python+cdb.html[url]
to try and make a super gentoo. lol

its compiling glibc right now
will nptl have any affeft if run on colinux?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Bob P,

nice guide, but I'd have some improvements. For example, I'd recommend to do an
Code:
etc-update
after emerge -e system, because the stage 3 tarball is a lil bit outdated :lol:

Etc-update found after an emerge -e system about ~80 outdated config files.

In addition, you'll now have to do an
Code:
emerge splash-themes-gentoo
after emerging splashutils.

What do you think about my recommendations? :)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

COiN3D wrote:
nice guide, but I'd have some improvements. For example, I'd recommend to do an
Code:
etc-update
after emerge -e system, because the stage 3 tarball is a lil bit outdated

This has been rehashed several times in the 2004.3 Stage 1/3 Guide and elsewhere in the 2005.0 Guide.

Basically, as Bob once told me, you're more or less expected to remember to do this on your own. After every single emerge, you always see "xx config files need updating" messages, so updating /etc should at the very least always be in the back of your mind. And since it's an advanced install method, leaving out a few small tidbits, I find it handy to keep a copy of the regular Gentoo installation guide handy just to remind myself about things like etc-update.

I b0rked my first Stage 1/3 attempt because I forgot to do an etc-update after finishing the compiles. New users really shouldn't be doing a Stage 1/3, anyway, simply because they aren't necessarily going to understand the processes behind the method, "the why of the what". Including the necessity for etc-update, which is unspoken, but so are several other details that users must keep in mind, just as they would if they were installing Gentoo by some normal, official means.

Quote:
In addition, you'll now have to do an
Code:
emerge splash-themes-gentoo
after emerging splashutils.

Incorrect. "media-gfx/splash-themes-gentoo" is masked by the ~x86 keyword. The Guide is designed to produce a stable x86 system, except for the toolchain. Adding other ~x86 packages begins to defeat the built-in bulletproofing. And by default, emerging splashutils includes the "gentoo emergence" theme; you don't need any other packages to get a working splash.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob - something to fix next time you're on:

As usual, a major update is released, and it immediately proceeds to break something. As of GCC 3.4.4, Python needs to be recompiled BEFORE pruning GCC 3.3.5, as it depends on libstdc++.so.5, which is removed with GCC 3.3.5.

Bug #84961
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tarpman wrote:
Bob - something to fix next time you're on:

As usual, a major update is released, and it immediately proceeds to break something. As of GCC 3.4.4, Python needs to be recompiled BEFORE pruning GCC 3.3.5, as it depends on libstdc++.so.5, which is removed with GCC 3.3.5.

Bug #84961
I'll tell you man, python hates a gcc upgrade in so many ways....:x
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sith_Happens wrote:
tarpman wrote:
Bob - something to fix next time you're on:

As usual, a major update is released, and it immediately proceeds to break something. As of GCC 3.4.4, Python needs to be recompiled BEFORE pruning GCC 3.3.5, as it depends on libstdc++.so.5, which is removed with GCC 3.3.5.

Bug #84961
I'll tell you man, python hates a gcc upgrade in so many ways....:x


yea that one screwed me. What i did was get a gcc binary and then manually re-emerge gcc.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing Gentoo 2005.0: Stage 1 NPTL on a Stage 3 Tarb Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
Code:
CFLAGS="-O3 -march=pentium -fforce-addr -momit-leaf-frame-pointer -fomit-frame-pointer -ftracer -pipe"
CXXFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -fvisibility-inlines-hidden"


What does "-fvisibility-inlines-hidden" do for c++? I couldn't find it anywhere in the gcc manual.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naveg wrote:
yea that one screwed me. What i did was get a gcc binary and then manually re-emerge gcc.
I'm having this issue right now, emerge just won't work and spits out a "missing libstdc++.so.5" error. Can you elaborate a bit more on you fix?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guys, let's move the support related questions to the support thread, and limit the posts in the documentation thread to contributions that solve problems and provide updates to the Guide, ok?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, but may I just make one last post here only because I know this is the first place people are likely to look.

I saw this post on the bug report page http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=84961
Quote:
------- Additional Comment #18 From Dan A. Dickey 2005-06-04 07:43 PDT -------

Regarding comment 11 ...
this was my situation this morning. No python, no emerge.
I did some searching and found bug 86218.
I looked around a bit on my system, and found libstdc++.so.6
in /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/3.4.4.
I set LD_LIBRARY_PATH to this location, and then was able to
successfully run gcc-config && env-update. After sourcing
/etc/profile, I could once again use emerge.
That was a nasty little problem.


This seams like a good fix to me, unless libstdc++.so.6 is somehow not compatible.
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