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gentoo_lan
l33t
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 891
Location: Charles Town, WV
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 Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:05 am Post subject: |
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Trust me that was your full quote.
[EDIT] The thread isn't off topic. It is still about Nitro and Love...there just isn't any Love bashing. |
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discomfitor
l33t
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 927
Location: None
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| gentoo_lan wrote: | | Darckness wrote: | Legoguy: Good thought. I'll do that in the future.
Lawyers: I'm currently talking to the fsf to get a clear answer on this and SHUT ALL YOU PEOPLE UP. Ahem. It seems like people are somewhat determined to shut nitro-sources down by finding licensing issues. Seems rather stupid, especially considering we're just trying to simplify things. Not that I don't think compliance with licenses is all-important. It's just that I'd prefer for people to wait until I've done something that is blatantly offensive without knowing it before they notify me that I'm providing "illegal software".
If you must know, I have also contacted both nvidia and ati about this just so that I won't have anyone else from the forums trying to serve me a subpoena in the future.
EDIT:
rush_ad: Are you on stable or experimental with this error? I don't see this in my version (stable). Have you tried the other version? |
I enjoy this quote from the famous Nitro-dev. I don't think compliance with licenses is all-important. |
gentoo_lan: You seem to have misread my statement. Or maybe you were stating your own opinion that you don't believe compliance with licenses is important? No matter, I thank you for your concern. Also, this thread isn't (by topic) about bashing at all. It's supposed to be about what people use. | Godji wrote: | I'm definitely not trying to start a flame war; I believe that the efforts of both teams are commendable and if I had the sufficient knowledge, I would probably be doing something like this myself  Thanks, guys! Keep up the great work!
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He says he isn't trying to start a flame war, not that he is trying to start one.
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Imperfection indicates a lack of effort. |
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seppe
Guru
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 431
Location: Hove, Antwerp, Belgium
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Hey
In case you didn't know, I'm the guy that started with nitro-sources. I first used love-sources, especially because I could play with reiser4 and bootsplash (it was still bootsplash when I used love). But when I checked ck again, I felt in love with the staircase scheduler .. so I decided to give it a try to start my own patch set, based on the staircase scheduler.
Love and Nitro are just different. Love = Nick's sched and nitro = Staircase. I like love-sources as well, especially since fallow is doing the new releases .. but I just like staircase more than Nick's scheduler, although I have to admit that fallow's genetic nicksched is very nice.
Why nitro-sources and not a stable gentoo-dev-sources or vanilla? Personally, because I want especially Software Suspend 2 and reiser4 in my kernel, and a lot of other people want those things as well! Patchsets like nitro and love are the ideal way to let a bunch of people test patches like reiser4 or Software Suspend 2. Thanks to patchsets like love and nitro, various bugs in those patches (like reiser4, swsusp2) get fixed. I fully understand that gentoo-dev-sources doesn't want those things in because they haven't proved to be 100% stable. That's just why experimental patchsets like nitro and love exist.
About the license thing: yeah, NPL and Nvidia+Ati drivers integrated in nitro was really a very very bad idea. And I personally never want those things back in nitro, the power of open-source is the GPL license. And the last thing I want to do is violate the GPL. I just hope that Darckness and Tiger realize this as well. I know I didn't contributed to nitro-sources lately, and that I didn't complain much about NPL and IT at Darckness and Tiger .. but I've been really busy last month(s). I just hope never to see IT, NPL or something similar back again in nitro, and I hope that I can do one of the next releases.
My ati-drivers didn't compiled with 2.6.11-nitro1 either, and I'm still stuck to 2.6.11-rc4-nitro1 which is the latest kernel I released myself. Oh and it's rock solid, my uptime is currently 9 days, so please don't say nitro will cause lockups or something .. especially not when you never tried it yourself. I also have to admit that I like 2.6.11-love1 very much, I still run 2.6.11-rc4-nitro1 most of the time .. but sometimes when I want to play a bit with different I/O schedulers + genetic Nicksched, then I run love
Regards, and no hard feelings to anyone
seppe
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nitro-sources, because between stable and experimental there exists only speed
Latest release I made: 2.6.13.2-nitro1 |
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| gentoo_lan wrote: | | I enjoy this quote from the famous Nitro-dev. I don't think compliance with licenses is all-important. |
A lot of people have put a hell of a lot of work into the kernel, and you get it all for free. All we ask in return is that you also make your changes public if you redistribute them. If that's really too much to ask, find a different kernel. |
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discomfitor
l33t
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 927
Location: None
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: | | gentoo_lan wrote: | | I enjoy this quote from the famous Nitro-dev. I don't think compliance with licenses is all-important. |
A lot of people have put a hell of a lot of work into the kernel, and you get it all for free. All we ask in return is that you also make your changes public if you redistribute them. If that's really too much to ask, find a different kernel. |
Sigh...I knew that his inability to quote accurately would be a problem. If you read the FULL quote, I clearly said "Not that I don't think compliance with licenses is all-important." gentoo_lan seems to enjoy maligning me, however. Not that everyone else doesn't, of course.
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Guinpen
Guru
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 393
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Darckness wrote: | | ciaranm wrote: | | gentoo_lan wrote: | | I enjoy this quote from the famous Nitro-dev. I don't think compliance with licenses is all-important. |
A lot of people have put a hell of a lot of work into the kernel, and you get it all for free. All we ask in return is that you also make your changes public if you redistribute them. If that's really too much to ask, find a different kernel. |
Sigh...I knew that his inability to quote accurately would be a problem. If you read the FULL quote, I clearly said "Not that I don't think compliance with licenses is all-important." gentoo_lan seems to enjoy maligning me, however. Not that everyone else doesn't, of course. |
Hey, if it matters at all, I don't I really started this thread with the idea to learn about the difference between the two patchsets in terms of technology, and not in terms of licensing. For instance, what is this genetic scheduler everyone is so excited about? What does it mean? If that scheduler is so allmighty, does nitro have sometihng as powerful (but obviously different) too? And then there was gentoo_lan (or is that gentoo_Ian?) stating nitro sucked big time. All I ever did is ask him to explain that statement, and that's how the flame war started... sorry about that. It seems many people need an outlet - someone to blame for something; and then as soon as someone does something unusual and a little controversial maybe, they go all over them. All I have to say is: Darckness, seppe, and other nitro devs - keep up the good work.
I totally agree with Darckness's view - if you don't like it, dont use it - it's there for fun. And to be complete, here's my opinion on the NVidia/ATI issue: There is no point in having the drivers in the kernel, because they do work with say, emerge nvidia-kernel. In fact, although it is certainly my fault, I coudn't get the built-in nvidia driver to work, so I just disabled it and went for the old way. So the inclusion as far as I'm concerned was as harmless as it was pointless, but then again - I appreciate the work of the nitro devs. See I think I'm the first one to express an opinion on video driver inclusion without ever mentioning the word "license".
I'm currently using love, but I obviously haven't set it up properly, as it starts to get slow when I run more than a single task at the same time. Also I can't seem to be able to get ALSA to work. I'll give nitro another try later. For now, could someone please let me know what this incredible love scheduler is all about? |
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fallow
Bodhisattva
Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 2208
Location: Poland
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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OK , I must add something 
[joking_mode]
for the first , please don`t blame me for my bad english - I`m learning
[/joking_mode]
I see that this thread has now different funtion than want the Author.
I have very similar position to Seppe. We talked togheter on the irc and there is no race or war (maybe a little hehe ) beetwen nitro and love and ohter patchsets. I`ve talked also with Darkcness and I`m sure about his good intentions. Yeah for me this nitro license was (no_comment_here) but we are a humans and can do something wrong or bad - is always possibility to do some better and fix errors from the past
about gentoo-dev-sources , and love/nitro reboots every 15 minutes .
Everybody is free to choice , for example if somebody want to have good solid stable and fixed destkop can choose gentoo-dev-sources without un-stable patches. If somebody want to test some more unstable solutions why not to use our patchsets if Hi want. I didn`t say to anybody "You must use love to be cool". I just like testing reiser4, playing with genetic implementations. I know that both are unstable. I just like it.
Ohh and our patchsets doesn`t make a Ferrari Modena from desktop or doing a Warp Space Travel for it but can change some of behaviors - important behaviors - like cpu or io schedulers or some of swap managment for example.
About magic ask David Copperfield
I want to add also that Yarbird is doing great work with stable - morph-sources
Please stop sarcasm;) no-one of us said that his patchset is incredible , boombastic , mega-fantastic and roxorez the big 111 much more than all other
EOT - from my side
cheers.
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"Time is a companion that goes with us on a journey. It reminds us to cherish each moment, because it will never come again. What we leave behind is not as important as how we have lived" J-L. Picard |
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kraylus
l33t
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 648
Location: ft.worth.tx
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Darckness wrote: | | ciaranm wrote: | | gentoo_lan wrote: | | I enjoy this quote from the famous Nitro-dev. I don't think compliance with licenses is all-important. |
A lot of people have put a hell of a lot of work into the kernel, and you get it all for free. All we ask in return is that you also make your changes public if you redistribute them. If that's really too much to ask, find a different kernel. |
Sigh...I knew that his inability to quote accurately would be a problem. If you read the FULL quote, I clearly said "Not that I don't think compliance with licenses is all-important." gentoo_lan seems to enjoy maligning me, however. Not that everyone else doesn't, of course. |
haha. so sorry man. welcome to gentoo. the land of insulting things that you can't make work, hell... even i'm guilty of it. i think we all are. don't get me wrong, im not trying to make up excuses for them.
don't bother reminding them that they didn't pay for any of this either. they might get upset and say that linux and software in general should be free. they'll swear they'll never ever pay for linux or anything having to do with it. should gentoo start charging five bucks a month for portage access (which i wouldn't mind paying in exchange for faster downloading), you can be damn sure the majority of users'll go to debian or whatever the hell else is out there. thus is the harsh reality of the the linux world.
the majority of linux users (that i interact with on a day to day basis - you older guys dont take offense) are immature leeches who take all they can and give nothing back. despite what they think, nothing is really ever free. linux is no exception. if it doesn't cost you anything, it WILL cost someone else something. in this example, we have a frazzled developer who started a project for fun and figured he'd share it with the world. the supposed friendly linux community bitched and moaned and sent death threats. why? because of a bunch of whiny leeches?
Darckness, if i were you, i'd keep doin what you're doin but close down your points of contact (forums, email, etc). do it for yourself and the enjoyment of others and have a disclaimer that says something to the affect of, "download my software. if it works, super! if not, submit a bug. if you dont like that, go fuck yourself".
oh, and since i don't know anything about either sources (other than that i used love sources a coupla years ago) i can't really contribute to the main topic. but i'll give it a shot: dont use either kernel if you're a whiny bitch. you might run into problems and cause headaches for others.
ryan
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thebigslide
l33t
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 792
Location: under a car or on top of a keyboard
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| gentoo_lan wrote: | | ciaranm wrote: | | Titeuf wrote: | | Do you people that use those kernels really notice any difference with a vanilla kernel or gentoo kernel ? |
Ooooh yeah. They notice a whole load of instability, crashes, lockups and weird bugs. But they get a 0.05% speed increase, which is clearly a benefit despite them having to reboot every fifteen minutes. |
The nitro developers lately have been pursuing ways to violate the GPL left and right. If everyone were smart they would abandon nitro in a hurry. If you ever look in the damn nitro threads it takes people several tries to even successfully compile a kernel...that doesn't mean that the kernel will even work. If you enjoy instabliity within your system go with nitro. I should know I used to use it but lately they have gone off the deep end by not giving credit to other people and also violating the GPL. That kind of made me think I will stick with a Gentoo kernel with developers who actually know how to make a stable kernel. |
[my2cents]
A few weeks ago, I was using 2.6.2-vanilla on everything I maintained. I use 2.6.10-ck5 with fine tuning, gensplash and supermount on all desktop boxes now, since about a week after it was released. I was very happy when it was released because it was very fast and very stable (I did a lot of research and went through the patches before upgrading). I decided to give it a try. and it works with all my hardware. So my uptime is at about 30 days. It's not actually, because I hotplugged my usb mouse while playing ut2004 to swap it out, gave it a shock, and it locked something up and I had to reboot; but it was before that I only have to reboot when I break something on my system and it is quite bleeding edge. I would never use nitro sources simply because of some of the decisions the devs have made, but I don't think it's a lost cause. Might try love, but I'd play with it using vmware before trying it on my system tho. Who the hell upgrades kernels every 8 days? Is that all you do with your free time, troubleshoot issues and rebuild the kernel repeatedly to try and resolve them? My advice is to stick with a stable, new release that is tested, trusted and is maintained by a proven developer. Some of the modifications in nitro sources remind me of the people that put lots of fancy flags in make.conf and expect packages to build cleanly and function just as they would w/o those flags, simply because they think it's 'optimized' But hey, we've all been there. The kernel is just one thing I don't think it's a good idea to f* around with or it makes it difficult to troubleshoot problems that may arise with your system. One should know exactly what is being done to your kernel when you choose someone else's patches. Con is an awesome kernel hacker. Think about it people. He was a good enough programmer that he learned C by hacking on linux.
[/my2cents] |
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predatorfreak
l33t
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 708
Location: USA, Michigan.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I might not be the most known patchset developer, but I'm also not one who takes sides in flame wars. All I have to say is that we're all human, we will make mistakes and some people will be pissed about these mistakes. I was one of the patchset developers who was quite pissed off with NPL, but I didn't flame darckness or tiger for there mistake, heck I was even running middle man for awhile between other developers and darckness during the NPL honor. I believe everyone has the right to believe what they believe and I believe in different views then love or nitro (hence why dark exists, also thanks to darkless for not getting pissed about me steeling his patchset name ).
~predatorfreak
the dark-sources guy.
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Distro: Arch Linux x86_64
Current projects: blackhole, convmedia and anything else I cook up. |
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M@rijn
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Zierikzee (The Netherlands)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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I use Nitro at the moment, last week i tryed Love but it freezes my system at high loads. So back to Nitro, the most anoying of Nitro and Love is that they doesn't support IPW2200 or IPW2100 cards. Because of failing some patches.... so that still sucks 
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pifactorial
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 77
Location: 3<x<4 on the gamma function
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| thebigslide wrote: | | Who the hell upgrades kernels every 8 days? |
 I do. And I also use aggressive CFLAGS...
To me, half of the fun of Gentoo is seeing how far I can push it. I don't need a really, really stable box at home. At work, I use the standard gentoo-dev-sources and liberal CFLAGS, because it's not my computer to break .
To each his own... |
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PZoned
Guru
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 360
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| hermes_jr wrote: |
About speed: try to play FarCry using vanila/nitro and compare the results - there's a f*cking huge difference, believe me... It's quite noticeable when playing_video_in_wine_lag disappears.
And yeah... Real h4x0rs don't play games... ok, you won then.
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I back this up... gentoo-dev-sources lags Farcry like mad... im using ck and it doesn't lag even 1/4 as much (maybe i'll try nitro and see if the lag is eliminated)
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M@rijn
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Zierikzee (The Netherlands)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| M@rijn wrote: | | I use Nitro at the moment, last week i tryed Love but it freezes my system at high loads. So back to Nitro, the most anoying of Nitro and Love is that they doesn't support IPW2200 or IPW2100 cards. Because of failing some patches.... so that still sucks |
Some little addons to my comments, i have the same opinion as thebigslide , maybe it's good voor the Nitro (and Love) sources to stay at a release cycle, like once a month or twice a month. The Devver have more time left to tune the patches and getting IPW working 
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Legoguy
Apprentice
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 166
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I'll add my two cents as well.
Me, I used to love love-sources when OneOfOne was still around. I still do, even with the different maintainer - kudos to Fallow. He's successfully kept Love love - no super-experimental features, no realtime whatever - just plain old love, the love we know. The stable love. Somewhat different from what you would receive from a girlfriend - but that's different. 
But nitro -- now don't get me wrong, I'm not taking sides here -- nitro was an excellent kernel back in the day when Seppe used to make them. In fact, the only truly stable nitro kernels I've had were 2.6.10-nitro4 - which currently holds my uptime record - and 2.6.11-rc4-nitro1. Both which happen to be made by seppe.
Now no offense Darckness, but it seems that something's changed - drastically - from your "nitro" and seppe's "nitro." Maybe you should "give" seppe back his nitro and make your own patchset - darck or something - this is not meant as insulting but merely suggestive.
It is clearly not right to have two different-at-heart patchsets claiming the same name. Don't ask me how Love transferred maintainers so many times without changing all that much - it might be because Lovechild hangs around in the IRC channel still. Or maybe that they even have an IRC channel.
That brings me to another revelation. Maybe if nitro had an IRC channel, development could be more coordinated - and you could actually test on more than 2 systems before release. I've participated in a couple of love-sources tests based out of the IRC channel. IRC allows for quicker bug finding and imo in general a better product because it lets the users feel so much more involved - because they are. |
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cbr
Apprentice
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 285
Location: Tallinn/Rakvere, Estonia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| But it does. #nitro-sources on freenode. Only 3-4 ppl out there though... |
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| cbr wrote: | | But it does. #nitro-sources on freenode. Only 3-4 ppl out there though... |
The rest of them can't keep their machines up long enough to compile an IRC client. |
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hermes_jr
l33t
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 701
Location: Moscow, Russia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: | | The rest of them can't keep their machines up long enough to compile an IRC client. |
The rest of them are too smart to ask stupid questions on IRC... |
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Illissius
Guru
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 395
Location: Hungary
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Legoguy wrote: | I guess I'll add my two cents as well.
Me, I used to love love-sources when OneOfOne was still around. I still do, even with the different maintainer - kudos to Fallow. He's successfully kept Love love - no super-experimental features, no realtime whatever - just plain old love, the love we know. The stable love. Somewhat different from what you would receive from a girlfriend - but that's different.
But nitro -- now don't get me wrong, I'm not taking sides here -- nitro was an excellent kernel back in the day when Seppe used to make them. In fact, the only truly stable nitro kernels I've had were 2.6.10-nitro4 - which currently holds my uptime record - and 2.6.11-rc4-nitro1. Both which happen to be made by seppe.
Now no offense Darckness, but it seems that something's changed - drastically - from your "nitro" and seppe's "nitro." Maybe you should "give" seppe back his nitro and make your own patchset - darck or something - this is not meant as insulting but merely suggestive.
It is clearly not right to have two different-at-heart patchsets claiming the same name. Don't ask me how Love transferred maintainers so many times without changing all that much - it might be because Lovechild hangs around in the IRC channel still. Or maybe that they even have an IRC channel.
That brings me to another revelation. Maybe if nitro had an IRC channel, development could be more coordinated - and you could actually test on more than 2 systems before release. I've participated in a couple of love-sources tests based out of the IRC channel. IRC allows for quicker bug finding and imo in general a better product because it lets the users feel so much more involved - because they are. |
Well, any particular nitro kernel being stable for me was pretty hit and miss even back with 2.6.9 and seppe's kernels, especially release candidates (some locked up every few minutes, others never did), and I'm currently running a Darckness kernel with complete stability, so I wouldn't read too much into it. That said I'm currently staying off of release candidate kernels entirely.
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super-lupo
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 92
Location: Germany / Berlin
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: | | cbr wrote: | | But it does. #nitro-sources on freenode. Only 3-4 ppl out there though... |
The rest of them can't keep their machines up long enough to compile an IRC client. |
Bullshit. Completely.
I´m using both, love and nitro, but stability was never an issue with nitro for me.
Besides the license issue the nitro kernel is just a good thing to try.
If you want to flame, do it. But don´t mention such bullshit.
Greetings,
Lupo |
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gentoo_lan
l33t
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 891
Location: Charles Town, WV
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: | | cbr wrote: | | But it does. #nitro-sources on freenode. Only 3-4 ppl out there though... |
The rest of them can't keep their machines up long enough to compile an IRC client. |
That is quite funny and quite true. Especially with the last nitro release. When you can't get it to compile right that is surely a bad sign. |
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discomfitor
l33t
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 927
Location: None
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| Legoguy wrote: | | In fact, the only truly stable nitro kernels I've had were 2.6.10-nitro4 - which currently holds my uptime record - and 2.6.11-rc4-nitro1. Both which happen to be made by seppe. |
I take some offense to that since I made 2.6.10-nitro4 myself. Personally, I have never had stability issues with any kernel I have made. Maybe it's luck, maybe not. Either way, I've run every nitro that I made and I've been happy with them.
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uman
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 223
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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I used nitro for a few days, and yes, it is luck. I mean no offence by this, but really, you need more quality-control in nitro. Again, no offence.
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| uman wrote: | | I used nitro for a few days, and yes, it is luck. I mean no offence by this, but really, you need more quality-control in nitro. Again, no offence. |
I think 'some' would be a more appropriate word than 'more'. |
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gentoo_lan
l33t
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 891
Location: Charles Town, WV
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Well they are taking nvidia and ati drivers out of the kernel (not because they violate the GPL - In their opinion, not mine) but because they just don't work. What a surprise. |
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