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mascanho
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 Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:43 am Post subject: |
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as i said i like helping others .. i dont think theres a problem with that, of course that i cant help everyone but at least i try, didnt you ever gone wrong on something ?
So am i forbiden of posting ?
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discomfitor
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:51 am Post subject: |
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I never said there was anything wrong with helping people. Your posts are anything but helpful though. I'll admit that I've "gone wrong on something" before, but never with 124 posts in a single day, most of which are useless. And that's only as of this minute. You've probably posted several more times since I counted.
Then again, why bother paying any attention to me? Since you're so helpful, I'm sure that everyone you've "helped" by calling them a "n00b" will be glad to have you posting as much as you are. I would never even dream of forbidding you of posting. Plus, I can't; I'm not a moderator.
I'm not trying to be a forum nazi or anything, but it seems a bit stupid to waste that much space with posts that, in the end, don't actually solve the problem. Now enough of this. Back to the topic.
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thebigslide
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| I'll write an app to benchmark interactivity tonight just to prove you wrong. I haven't pulled an all-nighter in awhile. Maybe we can get to the root of this debate then. Does anyone want to sacrifice their box by installing a few kernels? It probably won't show any meat and potatoes differences right off the hop as there are so many things I'd like to factor in, but this is something I've been thinking on for a bit. Anyone want to stay up with me and hang out on irc? I get home from work in about 2 hours. |
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cokey
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:56 am Post subject: Re: it's a sad sad world. |
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| thebigslide wrote: | | I'll bear that in mind the next time I see one of your posts where you should have found your solution in a manual or other doc. |
You do that. Even if you did, there is asking for help in the correct place and not asking it in the correct place and its the people that didn't know enough about it in the first place. Unless you know the politics behind it its difficult for you to comment on it. Needless to say, we have people on here asking for help on Debian, Windows and Solaris and we give them help but there is a difference between filing a bug report about the solaris port of gaim not working in gentoo's bugzilla and asking a good natured question about it in OTW
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cokey
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| Darckness wrote: | I never said there was anything wrong with helping people. Your posts are anything but helpful though. I'll admit that I've "gone wrong on something" before, but never with 124 posts in a single day, most of which are useless. And that's only as of this minute. You've probably posted several more times since I counted.
Then again, why bother paying any attention to me? Since you're so helpful, I'm sure that everyone you've "helped" by calling them a "n00b" will be glad to have you posting as much as you are. I would never even dream of forbidding you of posting. Plus, I can't; I'm not a moderator.
I'm not trying to be a forum nazi or anything, but it seems a bit stupid to waste that much space with posts that, in the end, don't actually solve the problem. Now enough of this. Back to the topic. |
whoa darckness, i missed all that, what was he doing? Oh and i think love is winning by about 2:1. Also, have you not used any of love's schedulers?
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thebigslide
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:03 am Post subject: Re: it's a sad sad world. |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | thebigslide wrote: | | I'll bear that in mind the next time I see one of your posts where you should have found your solution in a manual or other doc. |
You do that. Even if you did, there is asking for help in the correct place and not asking it in the correct place and its the people that didn't know enough about it in the first place. Unless you know the politics behind it its difficult for you to comment on it. Needless to say, we have people on here asking for help on Debian, Windows and Solaris and we give them help but there is a difference between filing a bug report about the solaris port of gaim not working in gentoo's bugzilla and asking a good natured question about it in OTW |
Chill, man. All I was trying to say is you don't call people idiots based on a bug report or a post to a forum. It goes against the spirit of these forums. We all know that the further you put a system on the edge of stability, the more likely it is for things for fubar. Perhaps some very aggressive aspect of one of these kernels might even show up a race, memory leak, whatever in an app that otherwise wouldn't be readily apparent. I could certainly see a value in bug reports submitted in that instance. The thing is, you never know what people were thinking when they did something, and to them, they damn well might have known their bug was posted improperly, but thought it was valid for the developers to be aware of. That's for those who don't fudge their emerge info. |
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discomfitor
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | whoa darckness, i missed all that, what was he doing? Oh and i think love is winning by about 2:1. Also, have you not used any of love's schedulers? |
Preposterous postcount pummeling. You should at least teach him how to conceal them better since you're the undisputed, and much revered, master of postcount++  .
Anyway, yes I have tried the schedulers in love-sources (nicksched, O(1)) and I like staircase much better. That's why I use a ck-based kernel. Unless, of course, you're referring to genetic schedulers. If so, then (no offense to any involved) I'll have to agree with Con Kolivas and say that they're...bad.
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Last edited by discomfitor on Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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thebigslide
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:12 am Post subject: |
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The genetic scheduler algorhythm works well for a sql server type environment. Not for a desktop. It kills interactivity under load. This is what the staircase scheduler was implimented to improve. Thus the improvement with the ck-kernel.
It's this type of thing that scares me away from love-sources. |
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cokey
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:20 am Post subject: Re: it's a sad sad world. |
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| thebigslide wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | thebigslide wrote: | | I'll bear that in mind the next time I see one of your posts where you should have found your solution in a manual or other doc. |
You do that. Even if you did, there is asking for help in the correct place and not asking it in the correct place and its the people that didn't know enough about it in the first place. Unless you know the politics behind it its difficult for you to comment on it. Needless to say, we have people on here asking for help on Debian, Windows and Solaris and we give them help but there is a difference between filing a bug report about the solaris port of gaim not working in gentoo's bugzilla and asking a good natured question about it in OTW |
Chill, man. All I was trying to say is you don't call people idiots based on a bug report or a post to a forum. It goes against the spirit of these forums. We all know that the further you put a system on the edge of stability, the more likely it is for things for fubar. Perhaps some very aggressive aspect of one of these kernels might even show up a race, memory leak, whatever in an app that otherwise wouldn't be readily apparent. I could certainly see a value in bug reports submitted in that instance. The thing is, you never know what people were thinking when they did something, and to them, they damn well might have known their bug was posted improperly, but thought it was valid for the developers to be aware of. That's for those who don't fudge their emerge info. |
Well people saying "this has screwed up", or "that has screwed up" in a bug report and then finding 2.4.5-love-5 in emerge info just put about as many straws as the camel could take for a few devs, because some of the patches were 2.5 series patches and experimental and some were mm patches added in by LC himself. Love, in the end, was a victim of its own sucess and its sucess (in the end) comprised of users who were using it because "someone told them to" and infighting in the community.
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discomfitor
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:24 am Post subject: |
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If I wasn't working on nitro-sources...
I wouldn't say that the genetic stuff scares me away from love-sources. It's just that love-sources is mm-based. mm doesn't add any sort of desktop-oriented features like ck does, it adds ACTUAL features and code rewrites. Some of those rewrites are being merged into main and aren't complete yet, and they break things as a result. It's difficult to know whether mm patches will break your machine at random, so I generally steer clear of them. Con does awesome work with his patchset, and I have yet to find even the slightest issue with it.
As a nitro guy...
I realize that I made some mm+ck-based versions. Those won't be coming back since they're just too much effort. In order to ensure that they actually ran, I had to spend hours weeding through the mm patches and testing them to make sure that they worked at all. Quite often, they broke things. Plus, I don't need any of the features in mm (except kexec, but I can get that elsewhere). Hypothetically, I could use vanilla. I wouldn't like it, but I could do it.
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cokey
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| Darckness wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | whoa darckness, i missed all that, what was he doing? Oh and i think love is winning by about 2:1. Also, have you not used any of love's schedulers? |
Preposterous postcount pummeling. You should at least teach him how to conceal them better since you're the undisputed, and much revered, master of postcount++ . |
At least i posted something like a comment and it was usually insightful, anyway from 6100 to 700 is fair i suppose 
| Darckness wrote: | | Anyway, yes I have tried the schedulers in love-sources (nicksched, O(1)) and I like staircase much better. That's why I use a ck-based kernel. Unless, of course, you're referring to genetic schedulers. If so, then (no offense to any involved) I'll have to agree with Con Kolivas and say that they're...bad. |
I'm having a problem with other sources now i have an amd64 so im sticking to dsd's kernel at the mo but with my xp2400+ the genetic (or as some people say "erratic") schedulers had a real effect and it was a nice change to have a real improvement after some, lets face it, half assed relesaes from love
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Omega21
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:28 am Post subject: |
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Nitro or Love, eh?
Well, my laptop is on 2.6.10 Love 1 and I have had a very low amount of issues. I downloaded it while it was in beta stage, so I should probably compile a new one... but hey, Id recommend it. Lots of cool features!
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travail101
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:29 am Post subject: Quick! look at the SPAM!!! |
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| So I'm now using my Nitro kernel... it's been just as good if not better than any other kernel I've used so far, but I really need to compile and install it on my other system... the one I've been using the past 6 months to actually compare it, since this is the only kernel i've had on this install. Either way, if nothing else it's at least up to par... oh and removing -pipe from my make.conf seems to have sped up compile time on my uniprocessor machine (why was I told using a compile time CFLAG mainly intended for SMP with parralel makes was a good idea?) oh well I don't know all the details on what -pipe does, but I still say users that lie on their bug reports and act retarded or ignant should in no way reflect badly upon the creators of patchsets... current stance: latest Nitro beats the Latest Love... I still need to do more testing though... which I may never end up doing =P |
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discomfitor
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | At least i posted something like a comment and it was usually insightful, anyway from 6100 to 700 is fair i suppose |
Heh...I'm still amazed that they let you get that high. You probably would have caught up to klieber if given much longer  .
| cokehabit wrote: | | I'm having a problem with other sources now i have an amd64 so im sticking to dsd's kernel at the mo but with my xp2400+ the genetic (or as some people say "erratic") schedulers had a real effect and it was a nice change to have a real improvement after some, lets face it, half assed relesaes from love |
Which scheduler are you talking about...genetic anticipatory or genetic nicksched? In the case of the genetic as scheduler, that's really only useful in server environments, if that. Genetic nicksched, while I'm impressed that fallow has actually gotten it to work at all ( ), I just can't see it as being better for a desktop than staircase. I suppose if someone benchmarks it we'd have solid proof, but for now I'm gonna have to go with a quote I got on irc: | Quote: | Mar 08 17:44:04 darckness: what's your opinion on the genetic stuff?
Mar 08 17:44:08 con: waste of time
...
Mar 08 17:44:41 con: I mean tuning nicksched with it is just bullshit
Mar 08 17:44:49 con: its bad enough at tuning an io sched
Mar 08 17:45:17 con: I leave the io scheduler work to the io scheduler people (ie jens)
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Sure, he might just be promoting his own scheduler, but I'm more inclined to trust him on this since I don't do any cpu scheduler programming of my own .
As always fallow, no hard feelings. I just like staircase more  .
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cokey
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:51 am Post subject: Re: Quick! look at the SPAM!!! |
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| travail101 wrote: | | So I'm now using my Nitro kernel... it's been just as good if not better than any other kernel I've used so far, but I really need to compile and install it on my other system... the one I've been using the past 6 months to actually compare it, since this is the only kernel i've had on this install. Either way, if nothing else it's at least up to par... oh and removing -pipe from my make.conf seems to have sped up compile time on my uniprocessor machine (why was I told using a compile time CFLAG mainly intended for SMP with parralel makes was a good idea?) oh well I don't know all the details on what -pipe does, but I still say users that lie on their bug reports and act retarded or ignant should in no way reflect badly upon the creators of patchsets... current stance: latest Nitro beats the Latest Love... I still need to do more testing though... which I may never end up doing =P |
a pipe is... a pipe, its like a virtual hole to another part of the compilation instead of using a tempoary file (which has to be recovered) it can be kept in buffers and cache etc.
| darckness wrote: | | Genetic nicksched, while I'm impressed that fallow has actually gotten it to work at all (Shocked), I just can't see it as being better for a desktop than staircase |
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I'm no expert but i really noticed the difference. Fallow must have done something special because it was like shit off a stick! It has no difference with a heavy load either because i had DMA uncompiled just to test it as well
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discomfitor
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:53 am Post subject: |
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cokehabit: What did you do to arrive at this judgement? I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, merely curious what caused you to notice the difference. Also, what scheduler were you using previously?
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cokey
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:00 am Post subject: |
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this is from dev-sources to love. The first thing i noticed was the start up, it was about half the time. it was kernel 2.6.11-rc1-love1 (i think). When it booted up i was truely amazed so i asked LC about it and he said it was a fancy new scheduler
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discomfitor
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:05 am Post subject: |
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You might want to try ck-sources (I can't recommend nitro due to the fact that it's against my morals to recommend anything I work on...). From what I've heard, it's possible to get startup times of less than ten seconds with it (basing this on something someone posted in one of my threads; since nitro gets its "speed" ONLY from ck patches, you should get the same performance from ck as you do with nitro). If it's a desktop machine, it's probably worth a try at the very least.
EDIT: Hah! I win! I was faster than cokehabit for ten seconds! Now I need to go out and drink to celebrate...
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cokey
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:13 am Post subject: |
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ok ck is on its way down.
this is a amd64 3400 instead of a xp2400 but i will base the results on what i get now from gentoo-dev-sources.
Also i may go to sleep in a minute and compile it in the morning.
Also im sure it was J.Moilanen`s genetic anticipatory scheduler
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discomfitor
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:18 am Post subject: |
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cokehabit: If you were using one of the recent love-sources releases, you were most likely using the genetic nicksched as well. Try using cfq with ck; I think you'll enjoy it. No rush though. It's not like I'm going to leave the forums and run away to avoid seeing your results.
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thebigslide
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| On my 2.4GHz/200MHz system, ck sources boots in about 9 seconds with the standard compliment of drivers in the kernel (including alsa!). |
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cokey
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:26 am Post subject: |
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i finding it hard to remember when it was, what i can remember was it was either the 1st 2.6.11 or the 1st 2.6.10 out plus it was r1-love3 or something.
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fallow
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Hey Guys
I maed mm3+ck , playing nice I testing this from yesterday
btw. Somebody (I don`t rem who ) said like IF You are using love You must use genetic nicksched and genetic anticiapatory . THIS IS CONFIGURABLE from (menu)config. Nobody is used to using genetic in love. EVERY people can not using genetic nicksched - normal nicksched or normal anticipatory not genetic
About genetic alg and cpu sched I know Con`s opinion but maybe J.Moilanen will do Genetic Staircase for ex in the near future I`m going to make something new plugsched based. About genetic cpu schedulers this is really new thing and required a lot of testing and reports. SO IT`s only a option in love. but Yes . I like it
cheers
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cokey
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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hmmmmm i think i have just found out that i need the newest drivers from nvidia to run nitro... 
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Sith_Happens
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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I have to say I was afraid that the Genetic NickSched cpu scheduler was biased towards desktop applications. However since I've started using 2.6.11-love2, I've noticed my seti@home results increase from around 8 a day to around 10 or 11 a day (wow ). I've never used nitro, but I am concerned about this as it seems based more on ck sources, and even Con himself says "these are patches designed to improve system responsiveness with specific emphasis on the desktop." Does anybody have an opinion on this?
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