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humbletech99
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

definitely, KDE takes an awfully long time to compile.

This idea makes so much sense I can't believe it hasn't already been done!
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RuiP
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well you can try some grp server and download precompiled versions
(like this one: http://chinstrap.alternating.net/files/2005.1/grp/i686/)

check if the package you want exist,
download it to /usr/portage/package
and emerge -K <packagename>

it simple to do a script that do that...

but of course, just a workaround.
A portage that do what bsd ports do would be just... heaven :)
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humbletech99
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that, Looks interesting.

What does BSD ports do? It's been ages since I used BSD, I thought that it also compiled stuff via cding to the directory and doing make && make install? I think there is a binary option but I can't remember that clearly.
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RuiP
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Under FreeBSD you can compile apps from source, ports, like with portage.
But you can also do pkg_add -r <packagename> and download a precompiled version.

With an application called portupgrade installed things are just:
portinstall <package> and it will compile from source
portinstall -P <package> and it will install a precompiled binary.

I like that freedom of choice...
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humbletech99
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pkg_add I've seen before but the portupgrade is new to me, very nice.

Portage is almost there, now only if it could also do the -P and grab a precompiled version, that way people with slower machines needn't suffer...
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RuiP
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, they needn't...

Thats what i was saying above, is where the -K option (of emerge) enters, with packages from grp server, a grp cd, or packages compiled on a faster machine... the boring aspect is that they are workarounds, they don't just work out of the box (out of the command in this case :))

But yes, maybe portage goes in that direction... i read somewhere that the main problem was not enough developers to keep the several packages reportoires for different archs...
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humbletech99
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure a global appear for this would create a good opportunity to build and go forward to achieve this. I mean, look, there's already that grp repository you pointed us to so there must be people out there who want to do it. In the UK, places like Blueyonder and Kent university often hosts mirrors, I wonder if they could hold a repository like this as well... they must have the storage space...

With the current cheap cost of storage and faster net connections, this is more easily achievable now than it ever has been before. We don't need the developers to store it, we just need them to write the functionality in portage and then collaborate to create one or two big respositories, it could be a joint effort in the open souce community to do what chinstrap are trying to do, on a larger scale....

Here's an idea, why no write it into portage and then allow for a make.conf option like:

Code:
GRPSERVER="servername.domain.com"


then you could change repositories, ofload the burden or even have competing repositories!
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john-boro
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to add my two pence...

I installed Gentoo about 3 weeks after becoming dissatisfied with my first Linux experience, Fedora. Looking back I can see why - it was just seemed so impotent and in a way, Windows like. Less configurability, less documentation etc. It didn't involve the user much in setup and configuration, but it was still fragile enough to go wrong inexplicably and then because of the absence of such a great community ( :) love u guyz) it was very irritating to fix.
Gentoo installed first time and the feeling of elation at seeing Gnome start up was incredible :oops: . Since then I've installed it on a couple more machines and I'm very happy in my current position - a working knowledge of the most essential setup options and the knowledge that if I encounter something unusual, I can come here or google it.

Finally, THANKYOU SO MUCH everyone for keeping this thread as civilised and interesting as it is (particular thanks for the LFS guys posting their side of the story, I think that helped,) It's great to see that we can have a chilled discussion about this without resorting to Debian/Gentoo flamewars etc as I have seen before.

thanks to the whole community

john
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RuiP
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

humbletech99 wrote:
Here's an idea, why no write it into portage and then allow for a make.conf option like:

Code:
GRPSERVER="servername.domain.com"


then you could change repositories, ofload the burden or even have competing repositories!

Hi, again.
I fact, reading /etc/make.conf.example i realize that this features is already on portage. Is only not used or discussed and grp servers seems to be very few. (All servers have a grp dir but as far as i check its always empty...)
It needs to set that variable:
Quote:
PORTAGE_BINHOST="http://chinstrap.alternating.net/files/2005.1/grp/i686/"
(Note that I replace the server that appears on example file by this one that work)
and do an emerge with flag -gk:

Code:
emerge -gK <packagename>

-g will only download the binary, -gK download and install.

Of course, binaries are not the bleeding edjes ones, some may be are a little old and i only find a i686 repertoir... but for slow or busy computers on that arch and/or people who don't care about compile, it's a good thing, i think.
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humbletech99
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for that.

I think that there will need to be more official support before people take it seriously and begin to widely use it. Otherwise it'll be safer just to plod along and compile everything after stage 3 from scratch as you along.
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RuiP
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(this is going highly out of topic... )

I just tested, for fun, the PORTAGE_BINHOST.
I decide it to try to emerge epiphany, that i didn't have installed.
It take it a long time, more then i thought it would. But it emerged ok.
I have at USE flag "-mozilla firefox" 'cause i don't like to compile mozilla and that avoid some gnome stuff to emerge it as dependency. But i like mozilla-editor so i usualy use mozilla-bin. The boring thing is that sometimes updates of gnome stuff still ignores that flags and the mozilla-bin and reemerge the mozilla (taking long times and cpu hi usage, to compile one thing that i use very sporadically...)
With the proliferation of USE flags for everything that now appears to goes on, i still need a "mozilla-bin" flag!
And this happened with epiphany. It emerged mozilla too, but the bin package from BINHOST!!
That what it take so long... emerge -gK download it both :lol:

Now i will use definitely this features. I unemerge mozilla-bin, i will use that (binary) version so portage is satisfied as dependencies matters :)

I can now decide what i compile and what just install as binary. Like with FreeBSD!

my emerge times:
Code:
 ~ $ genlop -t epiphany
 * www-client/epiphany

     Sun Jan  8 20:23:34 2006 >>> www-client/epiphany-1.6.4
       merge time: 27 seconds.

 ~ $ genlop -t mozilla
 * www-client/mozilla

     Sun Jan  8 20:23:07 2006 >>> www-client/mozilla-1.7.12-r2
       merge time: 2 minutes and 22 seconds.
sweet!
2 more servers with diferent archs, amd-athlonxp and pentium3:
http://ftp.fredan.se/gentoo/binaries/
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humbletech99
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

very nice. I have to say though, I'm a bit hesitant to try this unless it comes from gentoo.org. Especially cos I run so many servers at work on Gentoo, I can't afford for it not to work or to use binaries that can't be completely trusted.
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Raniz
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

humbletech99 wrote:
I'm sure a global appear for this would create a good opportunity to build and go forward to achieve this. I mean, look, there's already that grp repository you pointed us to so there must be people out there who want to do it. In the UK, places like Blueyonder and Kent university often hosts mirrors, I wonder if they could hold a repository like this as well... they must have the storage space...

With the current cheap cost of storage and faster net connections, this is more easily achievable now than it ever has been before. We don't need the developers to store it, we just need them to write the functionality in portage and then collaborate to create one or two big respositories, it could be a joint effort in the open souce community to do what chinstrap are trying to do, on a larger scale....

Here's an idea, why no write it into portage and then allow for a make.conf option like:

Code:
GRPSERVER="servername.domain.com"


then you could change repositories, ofload the burden or even have competing repositories!

When you think about it... there's a lot of people compiling apps all the time. If we could find some place to put all binaries I don't think it would be that hard to make portage upload the package to a server once it's merged (it already supports building packages, all we need is an upload-feature).
The big problem with this is use-flags... Could be solved by supplying some build-info along with the package and make portage add the flags the user doesn't have to package.use
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humbletech99
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes that does complicate matters somewhat, the only manageable way of doing that is to compile it with everything, otherwise it'd get too messy and you'd have multiple instances of the same program would be a waste of time and space. This wouldn't be a problem, cos if they wanted to have it leaner, then there's the compile it yourself with your own use flags the old fashioned way!

the only duplication of compiled programs would be for do get one of the architectures 386, 686, x86_64 etc... which wouldn't be too much and could be done.
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Raniz
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

humbletech99 wrote:
yes that does complicate matters somewhat, the only manageable way of doing that is to compile it with everything, otherwise it'd get too messy and you'd have multiple instances of the same program would be a waste of time and space. This wouldn't be a problem, cos if they wanted to have it leaner, then there's the compile it yourself with your own use flags the old fashioned way!

That's part of the problem... Then you'd have to have someone using _all_ features of an application compiling it...
My idea was to have ordinary users upload their builds to (a) server(s) and we didn't have to have a dedicated build-machine. Building it with all flags will require someone using a system with all flags enabled and who updates his system from time to time.

On the other hand, you could define a set of build systems with set use- and cflags and have them belong to groups where the first one to build a package in a group uploads it to the group-repository and the rest can use it... That way you won't have to compile apps as often - sometimes not at all. And you could still switch between groups when your needs change. It'll take some time to define those systems though.

It'd be like a huge package-wiki :)
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