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porodzila
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

probably not, but who cares, seems like these things will sell. Joe Blow, you must remember, is a stupid consumer, and will go for shiny things
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

j-rock wrote:
it takes regular DDR333

U sure? Could be low profile RAM what with the box so tiny and all.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voltago wrote:
j-rock wrote:
it takes regular DDR333

U sure? Could be low profile RAM what with the box so tiny and all.


They've got 2 pictures of macmini insides here

http://www.apple.com/macmini/design.html

From the looks of it, it seems like a normal DIMM module. Looks like there is only 1 DIMM slot as well.

Check out the shot of it with it's cover off. Density that puts any 'mini itx' system to shame!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrPr0ky wrote:
Density that puts any 'mini itx' system to shame!

What is even more intriguing is the time between official announcement and availability: Not even one month. Anyone remember when VIA started to boast about Epia-N and Epia-SP, which are still not available? (Oh yes, they will be available in 2005/1, sure...)
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Kai Hvatum
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

truekaiser wrote:
Evangelion wrote:
truekaiser wrote:
3. the toy is aimed at people who don't have a pc yet


It's exactly the opposite in fact.

Like I said: compare this machine to some Dell in the same price-range. I dare you!

And besides: so what if it doesn't have keyboard or mouse? You can't spend few bucks and buy them yourself?

Hell, I made it easy for you: Dell Dimension 3000. Price: $599 ($499 after rebate). It has a monitor, but what are the differences?

Mac has Radeon 9200, Dell has a crappy integrated vid-card
Mac has CD-RW/DVD, Dell has CD-ROM
Mac has a stylish aluminium case. Dell has a case made of.... gray plastic
Mac has OS X, dell has XP Home
Dell has smaller HD than the $599 Mini has
Mac is tiny, Dell is big

If we change the specs of the Dell to match the specs of the Mini (no display, bigger HD, CD-RW/DVD, XP Pro) it's price increases to 707 dollars (and that's WITHOUT antivirus/firewall/spyware!). And it still has that crappy vid-card and that horrible case and it's still big. So really: is the Mini expensive?


do you mean this? http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/featured_desktop1?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

and you miss the point as well. 90% of the people out there who will buy this won't even use it for gaming of any kind so the video card is mute and won't upgrade to xp pro because home suits them just fine.

so lets take the cheaper $499 one to be fair.
add $75 to equal the 512mb of ram
add $50 to up the storage to the same as the best out of that group
add $58 for their keyboard and mouse
add $149 to put the support at the same level

even without a monitor the dell is still a better and cheaper buy but lets say somone wants a apple monitor with it. there cheapest is $999.

the main problem between me and you on this is that you are only thinking of what whould be acceptable to YOU in these machines. what i am trying to get across is this is a bad deal for any joe blow pc user who wants a new machine to replace his old one.


Well, given that this is intended for the average Joe-Blow who's looking to replace a computer and therefore already owns a monitor and keyboard it's perfect - and cheaper than the equivelent PC. If you take that cheapest Dell and give it a CD-RW/DVD drive, take away the monitor and add a firewire adapter you're looking at almost $600. That's with the laughable intel "extreme" integrated graphics which hogs 64mb of system RAM and is easily beaten by the Mac Mini's radeon 9200.

So in all fairness the Mac Mini is either slightly cheaper or slightly more expensive then an equivelent PC, it then just comes down to taste. If you hate everything apple has ever produced, then the Mac Mini is obviously a retarded thing to buy. If your an apple fan or just want to try something different and simpler then the Mini would be the perfect choice.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

umm your still asuming joe blow even cares about the video cards or lack there of.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

truekaiser wrote:
umm your still asuming joe blow even cares about the video cards or lack there of.


umm your still asuming joe blow even cares about the size of RAM or lack there of.
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porodzila
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

uhh, joe blow cares about nothing but a salesman with a friendly smile and a shiny good looking product, and Apple provides this.

If you want to find other things to pick on about the mac mini go ahead, but your joe blow argument doesnt make a lot of sense
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrPr0ky wrote:

They've got 2 pictures of macmini insides here

http://www.apple.com/macmini/design.html

From the looks of it, it seems like a normal DIMM module. Looks like there is only 1 DIMM slot as well.


It has a unique slot for a 184-pin DIMM module (DDR PC2700, NON-ECC, UNBUFFERED), so the 256M module that comes inside will have to be exchanged. If cooling works as in the imac G4 (where a metalic cage works as a heat dissipator) than one has to be careful to replace the heat conducting compound before closing the box again. I bet the aluminum case is not just for looks; it should work as a dissipator for the whole box...
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PZoned wrote:
DVI-VGA converters are reletively cheap nowadays, but they should include one with it.

they do. it says so on their page somewhere.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
video card is mute


I thought only sound cards had that feature!

Cool!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

porodzila wrote:
never buy anything but the box (i-pod inclusive) from apple. Maybe a monitor, they do look beautiful, but are not cost effective.


They are cost effective compared to others of the same size. In fact, they are much cheaper then others of the same size. I bought a 23" widescreen Apple Cinema about a year ago. It cost $3500AUD where at the same time other 23" LCD's cost $5000AUD+ (and their quality if something which has to be seen to be believed).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

truekaiser wrote:
and you miss the point as well. 90% of the people out there who will buy this won't even use it for gaming of any kind so the video card is mute and won't upgrade to xp pro because home suits them just fine.


Of course you can use it for gaming. you wont be playing Half-Life2 with it or anything of the sort, but you can play a game or two. But the Dell would absolutely suck for gaming, whereas the Mini would manage it.

And XP Home is crap. Hell, XP Pro can't really be compred to OS X, let alone XP Home. So there's no contest there.

Quote:
so lets take the cheaper $499 one to be fair.


Why not the $599 Mini instead? And like I said, this machine is meant for people who already have keyboard, display and a mouse.

But lets really compare:

In one corner: Mac Mini. In other corner: the low-end Dell Dimension 3000 (the $499-599 model, so the price is more or less the same).

Let's make few changes to the Dell:

+ McAfee Security Center (+$69)
+ CD-RW/DVD (+$79$)
+ Firewire-adapter (+$30)

Now the features match the Mini more closely. If you want XP Pro, that's additional $79. But we'll skip it.

Total price: $797 (- $50 mail-in rebate)

Let's make few changes to the $599 Mac Mini:

+ 512MB RAM (+ $75)

Now the features match the Dell better. If you need keyboard, display and mouse (you shouldn't since you should already have them from your previous PC) you add:

+ Dell E153FP 15" Flat-panel (same as on the Dell, but you could choose something else instead) (+$224)
+ USB-keyboard (+ $20)
+ USB-mouse (+ $20)

Total price: $674. Or with display, keyboard and mouse: $938

So, at most it's $150 more expensive than the Dell. Or it's hundred bucks cheaper than the Dell. Let's review the specs and the features of the two machines:

Dell

Pentium 4 2.8Ghz
512MB RAM
Intel Extreme Graphics
XP Home
80GB HD
CD-RW/DVD
WordPerfect
Big case made of gray plastic

Mini:

1.42GHz G4
512MB RAM
Ati Radeon 9200 32MB
80GB HD
OS X
iLife
CD-RW/DVD
Small case made from adonized aluminium

Depending whether you need the peripherals or not, the Mini is either a bit cheaper or a bit more expensive than the Dell is. The CPU on the Dell is more powerful than on the Mini, but it's vid-card sucks goats. Software-bundle on the Mini is order of magnitude better on the Mini, as is the OS. And, IMO the case and design is ALOT better on the Mini than on the dell. And I assume that the Dell has several fans in it, whereas the Mini is practically silent.

But, in the end, those two machines do not really compete with each other. If you need the features of the Dell (expandability, for example), obviously the Mini is not an alternative for it. And if you want the features of the Mini (small size, great design, OS X, silent operation) the Dell is not an alternative.

Quote:
even without a monitor the dell is still a better and cheaper buy but lets say somone wants a apple monitor with it. there cheapest is $999.


Any monitor would do just fine, no need to get an Apple monitor. And how exactly is the Dell "better"? Do you seriously believe that that Dell is an alternative to the Mini? I have been thinking about getting a machine like the Mini, and not for a second has some low-end full-tower Dell crossed my mind as an alternative!

Quote:
the main problem between me and you on this is that you are only thinking of what whould be acceptable to YOU in these machines. what i am trying to get across is this is a bad deal for any joe blow pc user who wants a new machine to replace his old one.


And you are thinking of what would be acceptable to YOU, so what's the difference? You obviously value the "features" the Dell offers. Well, I don't. I want a small and silent machine that looks good and has enough power for everyday use. Dell doesn't even come close to that. It's just yet another generic tower-PC with substandard features (I honestly didn't know that there are still brand-new PC's available with just a regural CD-ROM-drive!).

If you want to compare the Mini to something, may I suggest a Mini-ITX-machine (which have sucky performance) or a SFF-machine? And even those are bigger than this machine is.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Put a sock in it boys... ;)

That's very interesting and all, but it hardly concerns us.

WHAT ABOUT GENTOO SUPPORT !!!!

Who cares if dell is cheaper or whatever, mini mac rules!, would be way better as a multimedia box etc.
no noise, tiny, tv out / projector, gfx card could do wicked visualisation, could be my wireless broadband router, bluetooth man.....

[best dutch accent] nadir-san wantsh to Party to the exhtremesh. :D
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

um you guys are forgetting how joe blow loves being infected by the regular spyware and viruses..
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This looks very interesting, might get one :) Sounds like the perfect MythTV/Mediabox/second PC/ppc linux toy. Of course it would be nice to learn OS X too...

One thing is bugging me though, since it comes with OS X Panther, how long is it supported (security patches etc), since Tiger is going to be out soon... Also some new features in Tiger isn't going to work with a Radeon 9200 (the new dashboard for example).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure. Maybe there will be updates on OSX 10.3 whenever an update on 10.4 has been released? Well, I wouldn't use OSX on mini mac since I would like a server machine with samba, ldap, vncserver with multi session, and proxy (for filtering and virus scanning). OSX has windows sharing and many great unix services. However, I doubt it has a vnc server because that would requires another license, right?

The price is very attractive. And yes, I wouldn't want a dell. I am looking for a mini computer for some time. I was considering buying an xbox and install linux on it. But it is very problematic. There is a problem though. I would like to have two ethereal cards on a mini mac since it would be used as a gateway/firewall. I guess an external network card (usb) would be in order.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vrln wrote:
One thing is bugging me though, since it comes with OS X Panther, how long is it supported (security patches etc), since Tiger is going to be out soon... Also some new features in Tiger isn't going to work with a Radeon 9200 (the new dashboard for example).


Dashboard will work just fine on the Mini
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Headrush wrote:
lagrima wrote:
it looks better than an Xbox for use as a media center type thing! im dissappointed though cause I was hoping for a totally new powerbook to come out of this expo.


Triple the price though!

Xbox media center more than sufficient for me, it streams web radio, itunes, iFilms, apple movie trailers, you name it.


Not to mention:
Quote:
1.42GHz G4 processor, 40 or 80GB hard drive, a slot-loading CD-R/DVD-ROM optical drive, 256MB DDR SDRAM and ATI Radeon 9200 graphics chip with 32MB dedicated DDR SDRAM — all whisper-quiet.

vs 733MhzP-II, 10GB disk and 64MB RAM... - all quite quiet...

So 4x the CPU power (roughly) 4x RAM and a real drive....

+ USB 2.0 or FireWire. Built-in 10/100 BASE-T Ethernet and a 56K v.92 fax modem
vs USB1.1 with those funny connectors that cost me a gamepad to hack to a normal USB.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gowator wrote:
Headrush wrote:
lagrima wrote:
it looks better than an Xbox for use as a media center type thing! im dissappointed though cause I was hoping for a totally new powerbook to come out of this expo.


Triple the price though!

Xbox media center more than sufficient for me, it streams web radio, itunes, iFilms, apple movie trailers, you name it.


Not to mention:
Quote:
1.42GHz G4 processor, 40 or 80GB hard drive, a slot-loading CD-R/DVD-ROM optical drive, 256MB DDR SDRAM and ATI Radeon 9200 graphics chip with 32MB dedicated DDR SDRAM — all whisper-quiet.

vs 733MhzP-II, 10GB disk and 64MB RAM... - all quite quiet...

So 4x the CPU power (roughly) 4x RAM and a real drive....

+ USB 2.0 or FireWire. Built-in 10/100 BASE-T Ethernet and a 56K v.92 fax modem
vs USB1.1 with those funny connectors that cost me a gamepad to hack to a normal USB.

What the fuck are you comparing the Xbox with the Mac Mini? The XBOX is fucking slow and big and stupid. It's fucking noisy, not quiet. The Mac Mini is quiet. You can't hear it. On top of that, it's damn small and light.

How much would it cost you to get the regular PC with the speed and noise? Right, an absolutely quiet powersupply alone would cost you 200 bucks.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ruzbeh wrote:
What the fuck are you comparing the Xbox with the Mac Mini? The XBOX is fucking slow and big and stupid. It's fucking noisy, not quiet. The Mac Mini is quiet. You can't hear it. On top of that, it's damn small and light.

How much would it cost you to get the regular PC with the speed and noise? Right, an absolutely quiet powersupply alone would cost you 200 bucks.


Uh, in case you didn't know this, but you are in fact agreeing with him ;)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evangelion wrote:
vrln wrote:
One thing is bugging me though, since it comes with OS X Panther, how long is it supported (security patches etc), since Tiger is going to be out soon... Also some new features in Tiger isn't going to work with a Radeon 9200 (the new dashboard for example).


Dashboard will work just fine on the Mini


It will run, but not with all effects enabled. Check the minimum GPU requirements, the mac minis 9200 radeon isn't enough.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vrln wrote:
Evangelion wrote:
vrln wrote:
One thing is bugging me though, since it comes with OS X Panther, how long is it supported (security patches etc), since Tiger is going to be out soon... Also some new features in Tiger isn't going to work with a Radeon 9200 (the new dashboard for example).


Dashboard will work just fine on the Mini


It will run, but not with all effects enabled. Check the minimum GPU requirements, the mac minis 9200 radeon isn't enough.


AFAIK, Core Image will then use the CPU instead:

Quote:
For computers without a programmable GPU, Core Image dynamically optimizes for the CPU, automatically tuning for Velocity Engine and multiple processors as appropriate.


Link

So it will run, only slower.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evangelion wrote:
vrln wrote:
Evangelion wrote:
vrln wrote:
One thing is bugging me though, since it comes with OS X Panther, how long is it supported (security patches etc), since Tiger is going to be out soon... Also some new features in Tiger isn't going to work with a Radeon 9200 (the new dashboard for example).


Dashboard will work just fine on the Mini


It will run, but not with all effects enabled. Check the minimum GPU requirements, the mac minis 9200 radeon isn't enough.


AFAIK, Core Image will then use the CPU instead:

Quote:
For computers without a programmable GPU, Core Image dynamically optimizes for the CPU, automatically tuning for Velocity Engine and multiple processors as appropriate.


Link

So it will run, only slower.


interesting, thanks... I might get one after Tiger is released :)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evangelion wrote:
Ruzbeh wrote:
What the fuck are you comparing the Xbox with the Mac Mini? The XBOX is fucking slow and big and stupid. It's fucking noisy, not quiet. The Mac Mini is quiet. You can't hear it. On top of that, it's damn small and light.

How much would it cost you to get the regular PC with the speed and noise? Right, an absolutely quiet powersupply alone would cost you 200 bucks.


Uh, in case you didn't know this, but you are in fact agreeing with him ;)


So I thought!!! thx I thought i'd lost it?
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