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Uranus
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2002 12:54 am    Post subject: C, C++ or C#? Reply with quote

hey all, here's the deal, I have about a year of C experience, and I am gonna code some software for linux mainly, but I need it to work in Windows too... anyway, which programming language would you recommend (from the ones in the subject)... if I go with C, I cannot use wxWindows. I could go with C++ and wxWindows... yeah yeah I know about the GTK port for win32, it's not bad, but I also want to know what u guys think of C#? Maybe I should be wasting my time learning C# since it's the next inevitable language? Would you guys recommend it for GUI programming? does a compiled C# program need any weird libraries?
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pilla
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2002 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that OTW is a better forum. Moving to it.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2002 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C# is hideously entangled with MS IP issues and proprietaryness at the moment... C++ is going to be the most "available." Also, you may want to look at Objective C, which I haven't tried myself, but have heard good things about (apparently it's the best, most reasoned effort at making OO C).
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taskara
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2002 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd go C++, especially if you intend on programming apps for linux.. that or java :)
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2002 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I understand you want to write portable applications with GUI.
You could try out Borland Kylix 3.0, it should work on both OS's and Borland makes some nice tools (their compilers were way ahead microsoft's). It is easy to start with, and building nice GUI's is best so far on windows. So C++ there.

C# is not an option, for linux anyway.

C is not really a problem, since C++ is superset of C (which means you can do almost anything "C-ish" in a C++ program. Almost.)

Do NOT use Java is my personal advice. Java is good for prototyping, bad for production code.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2002 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bos_mindwarp wrote:

Do NOT use Java is my personal advice. Java is good for prototyping, bad for production code.


Can you explain why it is bad for production code?

As far as I know there are a lot of Java based production systems out there. We are running a few ourselves internally and they work as a charm, so I really don;t understand your comment. Is it just a personal view or is it based on real-life experience?

As with any decision regarding programming language, the goal needs to be evaluated. Not everything is benefitting from beeing written in C (or C++ for that matter). Choice of language needs to be based on the goals of the project, not on what langauge is "better"

Erik
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2002 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C++. It's all you need.
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Uranus
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2002 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I guess I'll start learning C++ then... since I have a bit of C experience I imagine it can't be that hard... do u guys have any references for me? online tutorials? (not books cause I live in Portugal and don't have a CC to buy online :P)
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2002 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never done C++ but according to this guy C and C++ are two completely different schools of thoughts and one should invest itself in either one or the other. In other words, C is to C++ what a cow is to C++. :wink:
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2002 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. Well written, idiomatic C++ code looks nothing like well written, idiomatic C code. Knowing C very well will not make you a good C++ programmer, nor vice versa.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2002 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ebrostig wrote:
bos_mindwarp wrote:

Do NOT use Java is my personal advice. Java is good for prototyping, bad for production code.


Can you explain why it is bad for production code?

As far as I know there are a lot of Java based production systems out there. We are running a few ourselves internally and they work as a charm, so I really don;t understand your comment. Is it just a personal view or is it based on real-life experience?

As with any decision regarding programming language, the goal needs to be evaluated. Not everything is benefitting from beeing written in C (or C++ for that matter). Choice of language needs to be based on the goals of the project, not on what langauge is "better"

Erik


As I understand it there is no native compiler for the java language and it's slow because of that. If I'm wrong and a native compiler now exists, then I must be way behind the times and need to get with the program. But at any rate, that's what I think the reason is.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2002 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As I understand it there is no native compiler for the java language and it's slow because of that.


There are "Just in Time" compilers. But even setting that aside, runtime performance is by no means the only important metric to measure software by. It may be that a Java implementation may be "slower" than a C implementation, but it still may be more than "fast" enough for a given application. If it is also cheaper to develop and maintain, then it would be foolish to use C (in that instance).
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2002 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for the gui, you might want to take a look at qt, which is cross platform too. some friends of mine told me qtdesigner rocks.

for the programming language... if you already know C, why would you want to switch ? learning a new language is easy, but making good programs with it is a different story...
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2002 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C++.... it's a good language no matter what the kernel devs tell you.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2002 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ebrostig wrote:
bos_mindwarp wrote:

Do NOT use Java is my personal advice. Java is good for prototyping, bad for production code.


Can you explain why it is bad for production code?

As far as I know there are a lot of Java based production systems out there. We are running a few ourselves internally and they work as a charm, so I really don;t understand your comment. Is it just a personal view or is it based on real-life experience?

As with any decision regarding programming language, the goal needs to be evaluated. Not everything is benefitting from beeing written in C (or C++ for that matter). Choice of language needs to be based on the goals of the project, not on what langauge is "better"

Erik


Well my company is consulting around performance (benchmarking and availibilty) measurments, we even have our own tool for doing it. I have seen a lot of problems with Java code, and I have seen some good ones.
It is hard to argue about those problems without going into details/philosophy of design, but I can summarize it roughly as: begginers believe that they get a lot of "free things" in java, such as garbage colletion, and they are neglecting sane thinking and are relying on automated features of JVM, and it doesn't always work.
Not to mention the fact that memory/cpu footprint of java app is much larger then of code written in some native language.

The reason to use java (besides cross platform issue) is advertised as saving money while developing, but that is short term saving really. IF memory/performance is not so much of an issue, and IF you are really convinced that java is proper solution, then go ahead. Basically i would like to see some cross-platform (say win32, sparc, linux, mac) tools that are doing work in native code. How about QT? There are many others.

I am not saying that C is "better" it isn't. It is old and weird really. Java is much more elegant. But imho it is not that mature yet.
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taskara
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2002 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

java 2!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2002 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you want to learn something new.. go ahead and learn c++... there is nothing wrong with that.. it will live on for a long time.


a good book on C++ is 'Accelerated C++'.. you can find it on Amazon.con easily enough. there are plenty of references on the net.

good luck
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2002 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i whould choose c++...
heres some links.

http://www.robertnz.net/cpp_site.html <-- some site.
http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/C++/index.html <-- tuts
http://www.acm.org/crossroads/xrds1-1/ovp.html <-- intro to c++
http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~pjbk/pathways/cpp1/cpp1.html <-- intro to c++ programming language I
http://maththinking.com/boat/computerbooks.html <-- good site, many links.
http://freebooks.by.ru/view/CppInteractiveCourse/ewtoc.html <-- C++ interactive course.
http://oes.mans.eun.eg/Books/0-672-31070-8/index.htm <-- Sams teach yourself C++ in 21days ;)

and i have some ebooks around here somewhere...
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2002 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

antoe wrote:
i whould choose c++...
heres some links.

http://www.robertnz.net/cpp_site.html <-- some site.
http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/C++/index.html <-- tuts
http://www.acm.org/crossroads/xrds1-1/ovp.html <-- intro to c++
http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~pjbk/pathways/cpp1/cpp1.html <-- intro to c++ programming language I
http://maththinking.com/boat/computerbooks.html <-- good site, many links. (worth gold)
http://freebooks.by.ru/view/CppInteractiveCourse/ewtoc.html <-- C++ interactive course.
http://oes.mans.eun.eg/Books/0-672-31070-8/index.htm <-- Sams teach yourself C++ in 21days ;)

and i have some ebooks around here somewhere...

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