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I refuse to use xorg....it sucks! (nevermind....user error)
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desertstalker
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

loki99 wrote:
isn´t it also possible to mask xorg completly? wouldn´t that solve the problem for everyone that doesn´t want to upgrade?


Not really. MAsking xorg will mean as Xfree is no longer in the tree that any merge requireing X11 as a dependency will fail.
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lizard3k
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I still have yet to see any real problems with xorg.... not a single person has posted anything that amounts to actual information.


Ok, I have run gentoo for about 7 months now at work (boss introduced me to it) but only just now got around to installing it here at home over a way out of date suse. I never had the choice to keep xfree86, even though it has worked flawlessly for me for the last 5 years on this computer, through two other distros.

Now it almost works ok, except for one thing. The resolution is stuck at 1280x1024 and if I lower it, then the screen shrinks and moves up to the top left a little more, until at a low resolution it pretty much looks like a stamp. I know I'm not alone in this, as I've seen it around on the net, although no one seems to have found a satisfactory solution thus far besides buying a new monitor. I think it has something to do with my ati card, but I really don't know as I've never had to screw with X for more than a few minutes before.

At work, my boss updated his computer to Xorg, and found that he could not configure dual monitor support correctly for some reason, and he's a smart dude, trust me on this. He was able to go back to Xfree painlessly.

When he updated his computer he also updated two computers of my coworkers' (from mandrake and redhat) who are not linux gurus by any stretch. Both of them ended up with the same problem where once every hour or so, their mice would lock up until they alt-f'ed back and forth around in X. I've looked at their files myself and I have no clue what could be wrong with them. You kind of expect mice to just work. They too had no way to keep Xfree, they didn't have it to begin with either.

So that's 0-4. They may be somewhat mild problems, but they are definitely problems and had an old masked version of xfree86 been around in portage I would have merged it in a heartbeat, but as it is I have to wait around for xorg to come along with a fix.

/end rant

So anyways, if I haven't turned you off yet, my xort.0.log file is pretty bare, no errors or any information that might seem to relate to my problem.

xorg.conf
Section "Monitor"
# DisplaySize 330 240 # mm
Identifier "Monitor0"
VendorName "SNY"
ModelName "CPD-200ES"
HorizSync 30.0 - 70.0
VertRefresh 50.0 - 70.0
Option "DPMS"
EndSection


Section "Device"
Identifier "Card0"
Driver "radeon"
VendorName "ATI Technologies Inc"
BoardName "Radeon R100 QD [Radeon 7200]"
BusID "PCI:1:0:0"
# Option "DDCMode" "On"
# Option "IgnoreEDID" "on"
EndSection

The DDCMode and EDID options were attempts to fix the problem via a suggestion on a board somewhere else on the web. It didn't work. I've also tried with Driver "ati" but that didn't change anything that I could see.

Section "Screen"
Identifier "Screen0"
Device "Card0"
Monitor "Monitor0"
Defaultdepth 24
SubSection "Display"
#Viewport 0 0
Modes "1280x1024" "1024x800" "640x480"
Depth 16
EndSubSection
SubSection "Display"
#Viewport 0 0
Modes "1280x1024" "1024x800" "640x480"
Depth 24
EndSubSection
EndSection

I'm using the 2.6.9 kernel (gentoo-dev-sources). I'm sorry if this isn't enough information, but I really don't know what else to put.
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legine
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

is there anyone out there who would voulunteer for a maintainer position for xfree?
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Bigun
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loki99 wrote:
there is an easy way to fix the ati issue! just mask >=x11-base/xorg-x11-6.8.0. and you won´t have any troubles. isn´t it also possible to mask xorg completly? wouldn´t that solve the problem for everyone that doesn´t want to upgrade?

and talking about gentoo is all about choices, that is what i read in this thread


I'm well aware of that, but how many more instances of Xorg will be unmasked before ATI catches up?
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loki99
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigun89 wrote:

I'm well aware of that, but how many more instances of Xorg will be unmasked before ATI catches up?


well, that´s ati ´s not xorg´s fault. and we all know: ati´s linux support just simply sucks!
that is a fact that will never change, i guess.
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blotto
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noted that the OP edited post to say
Quote:
never mind - user error

Cant see any info relating to this, would be nice though!

lizard3k wrote:
xorg.conf
Section "Device"
Identifier "Card0"
Driver "radeon"
VendorName "ATI Technologies Inc"
BoardName "Radeon R100 QD [Radeon 7200]"
BusID "PCI:1:0:0"
# Option "DDCMode" "On"
# Option "IgnoreEDID" "on"
EndSection
EndSection


I have an AIW R100 QD 7200 so heres my "device" section of xorg.conf. I did have similar prob where at 1280x1024 the screen was shrunk to an actual size of about quarter monitor size but this fixed it for me!
Code:
Section "Device"
    Identifier  "AIWRadeon"
    Driver      "radeon"
    BusID       "PCI:1:0:0"
    Option     "EnablePageFlip" "true"
    Option      "AGPMode" "4"
    Option      "DPMS"    "on"
    Option      "DDCMode"   "on"
 EndSection

Please note however that I do use the "Gatos" drivers for my AIW and use the kernel drivers for DRI and all work OK. Have been OK with 2.6 kernel, presently using 2.6.8-r10 gentoo-dev-sources.
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lizard3k
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool, it worked :)

Thanks!

For those with a similar problem, note that I had to restart my computer before the changes took effect, restarting x wasn't enough.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lunarg wrote:
joem wrote:
lunarg wrote:
russryder wrote:
I vote to have xfree put back into the portage tree until all the bugs in xorg get fixed.

I second that vote. Even though I've already upgraded to Xorg without too much trouble (though they really should make it clear to rename configs to xorg.conf :wink: ), I find it a bit over-exagerated to kick Xfree out of portage like that.


you mean like when it says this at the end of merging

Code:
 "The configuration file has changed from that in XFree86."
   "It is xorg.conf instead of XF86Config."
   "You may use xorgcfg, X -configure, or xorgconfig"
   "to create xorg.conf."



Right.... :oops:

(But in my defense, it's difficult to read that specific line of text when you're doing emerge -u xorg-x11; it's not like I'm staring at the scrolling lines of text when compiling things like X).


I agree. For something as big as X I usually fetch the files first and then
build them over night. So I'm not looking at the screen if this message
where even to scroll by. There needs to be some more efficient way of
conveying critical information. Whether that is a reference to a
transition document (like the 2.4 to 2.6 kernel migration guide) before an
upgrade, or a log of critical information after an emerge I don't know. But
somehow these suprize problems need to be addressed.

This is important. I am currently writing this using a backup copy I have
of gentoo on the same machine since my required upgrade from xfree to
Xorg last night left me without a working X server. I have the backup
because of previous experience with gentoo upgrades. Good thing since
without it I wouldn't be surfing the forums now finding out how to fix it.
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madbiker
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys... it's at the *end* of the emerge. So after you come back and check the terminal to see if it finished, it'll be sitting right there for you to read. There's useful information in those endnotes a lot of the time, so it's worth the read.
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Bigun
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

madbiker wrote:
Guys... it's at the *end* of the emerge. So after you come back and check the terminal to see if it finished, it'll be sitting right there for you to read. There's useful information in those endnotes a lot of the time, so it's worth the read.


It's at the end of the emerge of that package. and I dare say most of us do an emerge -up world to see what's coming, then do the emerge -u world, then go to bed.
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irf2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, get over it...
you had a couple of month to migrate, so you might as well do that migration.
if i am not misktaken xfree is unsupported software, and this has nothing to do with gentoo.
if you doubt me, please can you enumerate the active linux distros which still support xfree??
the xfree license precludes distros from supporting it.
if you cannot do without it, you are welcome to roll your own ebuild, provided that you maintain it.
the community has cast it's vote, and the results were, if you care to know, xfree bybye welcome xorg-x11.
hth
happy gentooing
PS you can always use xfree if you so wish, but, you will be on your own, so please do not bother the community with any issues you may encounter.
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legine
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oyarsa wrote:
I agree. For something as big as X I usually fetch the files first and then
build them over night. So I'm not looking at the screen if this message
where even to scroll by. There needs to be some more efficient way of
conveying critical information. Whether that is a reference to a
transition document (like the 2.4 to 2.6 kernel migration guide) before an
upgrade, or a log of critical information after an emerge I don't know. But
somehow these suprize problems need to be addressed.

This is important. I am currently writing this using a backup copy I have
of gentoo on the same machine since my required upgrade from xfree to
Xorg last night left me without a working X server. I have the backup
because of previous experience with gentoo upgrades. Good thing since
without it I wouldn't be surfing the forums now finding out how to fix it.


I have seen some gentootools. One of them surpressed coding data. If you use this portage programm plus piping the overnicghtbuilds to a file then you should be able to read the important output, in teory. when you youse tee to spilt out put you can log and see them on screen.
here is the link for alternative portagesoft:
Prtage Utils not in portage

Maybe some of them suits to you :D
Good Luck!
[/quote]
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placeholder
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In short:

1) I use kernel 2.6.10 and had no problem with the nVidia driver.
2) Xorg has better font rendering for me.
3) Xorg is faster.
4) XFree is behind Xorg in many fields.

Continuing to use XFree is great if you care to use an X server whose features are going to stay about the same. People who have a problem with Xorg probably can find the cause sitting between their keyboard and chair. :wink:
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ICeDX
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:25 am    Post subject: I agree Reply with quote

Man. Some of these noobs should check out the XOrg documentation that Gentoo has had out in the public for half a year now. Not to mention xfree being excluded from the installation documentation for just as long. Why do people cling to crap? Win95, Win3.11, etc. xfree is a horrific peice of GPL incompatible crap, and even trying to update it is stupid... since xorg is that update.

xorg and xfree are about 92% the same, with xorg you get HARDWARE transparency effects and HARDWARE dropshadows. Not fake ones done using software effects. The xfree group was also run by a bunch of nazi's who didn't like adding features (possibly cause it would break their pentium 1's)

xorgconfig is all you need to set things up. it is exactly the same as xf86config and there should be no reason for anyone to mess it up.
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marsclic
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:47 am    Post subject: Tales of succesfull migration? Reply with quote

I'd like to take the time to thanks the gentoo devs for having so made the transition to Xorg so easy. It was totally efortless for me. I have kernel linux-2.6.9-rc2-mm3, the latest Xorg and a nvidia 5900 card with driver rev. 6629. Those of you using ATI in Linux are definitely asking for trouble, as their support for Linux is minimal. :roll:
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val
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Those of you using ATI in Linux are definitely asking for trouble, as their support for Linux is minimal.:roll:


That is a snotty thing to say. People may have bought computers not knowing about the ati/linux problems, or they may have bought laptops, where you are pretty limited in your choice of video cards.

I for one, am very thankful that I have xfree quickpackaged on my lappy. I can't plot in Mathematica with xorg for some reason. Simple plots work, but anything complicated and the cpu usage for X goes to 99% and stays there until I kill Mathematica. There ARE bugs in xorg. Many people are having problems. Just because some or even most people don't have problems, doesn't mean there aren't bugs.

However if you would like to switch back and you didn't quickpackage, or you are installing on a new system where you'd like choice, it would be nice if xfree were in portage! It's true that you can get the xfree source and compile it yourself, but it would be a shame if lots of gentoo users aren't able to use portage to do this more simply.

From the gentoo handbook:
Quote:

It is very important that you understand that choices are what makes Gentoo run. We try not to force you onto anything you don't like. If you feel like we do, please bugreport it.

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marsclic
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That is a snotty thing to say.


Oh no, PC police attacks again. :D

Val, the nature of my comment is based on the fact that ATI itself says that Linux is not a priority. The reports from their users and reviews on the web confirm that are many problems with ATI's driver.
Furthermore, people buying hardware to run Linux have to (or should) know a thing or two about their hardware's Linux drivers quality and compatibility since many manufacturers do not dedicate the same effort for their Linux drivers as they do for their Windows drivers.
Many people buy ATI because of a few FPS advantage over the competition in certain games, then they install Linux and think it sucks because of their video driver.
It is not being snotty to try to inform people what is better for their Linux experience.
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val
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not PC, ettiquette.

And you're not exactly informing people with that post.... :roll: I just thought it was rude.
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jean-michel
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:34 pm    Post subject: xorg, xfree, nvidia, etc. Reply with quote

I use both nvidia (5600s, 5700s) and ati (8500, 9200) at home, as well as at work (ati9200s, ati9250s, ati9600s, nvidia7500s, etc.). I have been running xorg for about a year, and while there are a few hiccups, they are by no means insurmountable.

First, I do not use ati's binary drivers. The 9250, 9200s, 8500s, etc. all have well supported 3d using the free radeon drivers. These drivers BTW are even better in the currently masked xorg-x11-6.8.1.901 (issues with rendering Earth in celestia with clouds, nightlights, and atmospheres enabled that lead to visual glitches under xfree, xorg-6.7.0 and xorg-6.8.0 are fixed), but are fine in 6.7.0 and 6.8.0 as well (modula the celestia issue alluded to above).

If you're running anything above a 9250, you're stuck with 2d only support using the xorg drivers, which is irritating if you do a lot of blender work, gaming, or fooling around with celestia, but is otherwise irrelevent to having a nice, working, usable system for just about every other task. So, you can limp by without 3d support until ati releases their new drivers (announced for later this month ... if you believe ATI can keep a timetable).

Hiccups include changes to how the ati drivers are configured in xorg.conf (6.8.0 changed from 6.7.0, for example, digital monitor timings are not only no longer required, they screw things up and should be removed), but these are documented in the driver manpage and straightforward to fix.

nvidia works fine on all these platforms, with both the free 2d 'nv' drivers and the nvidia binary 3d drivers (and yes, for me they work with kernel 2.6.10).

The migration will take a little time and effort, but it is well worth it. Alternatively, as others have said, if you want to keep xfree in portage, go ahead and maintain it. I for one don't miss it a bit, and I use X on all kinds of hardware, ranging from old, slow 32-bit intel systems to powerbook laptops (ppc) to 64bit dual athlon systems, using both ati and nvidia GPUs.
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uglyman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the switch to xorg was reasonably seamless
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dezydery
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I switched one system over to Xorg without incident. Another system is still on Xfree86. I can't be bothered upgrading it because I'm going to get a new hard disk soon, upgrade the kernel and upgrade X all together.

It might be nicer if XFree86 stayed in portage just a few months longer, for users who don't change their system too quickly or follow the news. However, it's caused me no problem and I don't think it's a huge issue. :-)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm kind of in the same boat. I'm not really looking for support but I'd like to be able to emerge -u world w/o upgrading to xorg (I hand hacked XFree along time ago to make the TV out on my ATI 7500 card work properly w/o a monitor, I'd rather not re-hand-hack that). Can you all point me at instructions for setting up the portage overlay thing?
Thanks!
Paul
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saosao9 wrote:
I hand hacked XFree along time ago to make the TV out on my ATI 7500 card work properly w/o a monitor, I'd rather not re-hand-hack that.


IIRC, you should just be able to copy your /etc/X11/XF86Config or /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 file to /etc/X11/xorg.conf and it work just fine. XORG is not a completely different beast from XFree just yet. It is simply a continuation of the code development under a more open license and more rapid timetable.

That said, I do agree that it should not have been removed from portage, as there are many who do not want to switch for some reason or another. Sooner or later, though, a feature will come out to make life easier and the XFree folks will switch to xorg or Y-Windows or something else.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, couldn't help but smile, most "foo sucks, I can't get it to work, use bar" is usually a case of PEBCAK.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:17 am    Post subject: Funny Reply with quote

I find this quite funny.

xorg is the same as xfree, any bugs in xorg are the same as in xfree.

If theres any difference, it's your ATI cards. Which is in fact your fault as a linux user not to know before hand.

Not every peice of hardware out there is going to work well with Linux, so when shopping for a video card don't go to toms hardware and don't go to hardocp because everything they do is for windows.

ATI might be 10 frames ahead of Nvidia in all the benchmarks, because they are all in windows. But if you run an nvidia card in linux, theres a 20% boost in performance, and with ati theres a 20% degredation in performance. All because of DirectX and OpenGL.

ATI loves Microsoft and loves DirectX. Nvidia loves Linux and OpenGL, why? Because 20% of their customers use it. Hollywood render farms depend on their drivers. The only people who depend on ATI are MS zealots and fools buying hardware without doing any sort of research.

Again, xorg is no different except for how it names stuff. The simple fix for that is by starting xorgconfig and redoing your configuration. The only problem will be xorg drivers, most of them work except ATI because they develop their drivers specificly for a version of X which is stupid. They also only have a one man team doing drivers for linux.

This is Linux, it's not windows. Many hardware manufacturers do not care about you. It's a little tough, but you have to do your research in order to get hardware that works.

If you want choice, I guess I'll have to start ranting about Gentoo not including Linux Kernel's 1.0 through to 2.6x, cause we want choice!

"I need Kernel 2.2 damn it! Why isn't it in portage! WHERES MY CHOICE!"

That sounds just as stupid as these arguments over having a security risk sitting around unmaintainted in portage.
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