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larand54
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joem wrote:

larand54 wrote:

Another computer that still works but it has got an ugly looking font. I'm sure that's xorg's fault.


Are you sure it isn't your fault by not having any of the font useflags set?


Kde displayed nice fonts before that emerge and as I didn't realized that X changed from I had no idea of setting any font useflags.
I still don't. None of the gentoo-documents I've been reading have spoken about any font useflags. Do you have any useflag recommendation? Does it also mean that org/kde have to be re-emerged?

I'm sorry that I react like this, I really love gentoo and still want it, but it's rather frustrating working with a problem about xfree, not knowing that I don't have xfree any more.

I have finally got the other computer to work. Used
Code:
X -configure
to figure out some settings :D

I'm ok now just if I could get some helps to find out how to do with the fonts.

Still I would like gentoo to be more precausious when changing fundamental things like X for instance.
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legine
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
There is a Announcement to this from the maintainer.

I did not had any problems when i switched to Xorg. But I search this forum how to do it. And there where some issues how to do it.

If you realy, realy want the Xfree packadges back then volunteer for maintaining the Xfree packadges. I believe no one would oppose that, but no one at the moment is interested in doing this.

Because there is a German topic too I will link them both together so people who manage to read both threads maybe can organize better :)

Thread of same toppic ,german
Is there a thread in any other language too? please link them together. I believe it is Important to find out how much people do not want any change and if the support issue is great enough to organize maintaining group or something alike :)
note: I am not offical gentoo worker :) I do that out of the felt importance of this "war" between xorg and Xfree fractions.
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jakamaka
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing I did to get xorg working was pretty simple.

I renamed my xfree86 config to xorg.conf, unmerged xfree and merged xorg.
Works as a charm.
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Duncan Mac Leod
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

appetitus wrote:
The man was right about CHOICE, give us back CHOICE.


Agreed!

It's okay if the Gentoo-Dev.-Team doesn't want to maintain xfree in the future, BUT: xfree should stay in Portage til the xorg 'issues' are solved!

'Forcing' people to use xorg (which is still considered by many people to be UNSTABLE, even if some eBuild maintainers have put an '+' on some archs.) is not the way to deliver 'the freedom of choice'...

just my 2 cents,
Duncan
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ralph
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duncan Mac Leod wrote:
appetitus wrote:
The man was right about CHOICE, give us back CHOICE.


Agreed!

It's okay if the Gentoo-Dev.-Team doesn't want to maintain xfree in the future, BUT: xfree should stay in Portage til the xorg 'issues' are solved!

'Forcing' people to use xorg (which is still considered by many people to be UNSTABLE, even if some eBuild maintainers have put an '+' on some archs.) is not the way to deliver 'the freedom of choice'...

just my 2 cents,
Duncan


So let me get this straight. You want the gentoo devs to leave a package in portage that is not only unmaintained by them but also has known security vulnerabilities that are not fixed by upstream anymore because some people perceive xorg, which has in it's 6.7 incarnation nearly the exact same codebase as xfree, as unstable?
And you call that choice? Frankly, I'd call it moronic.
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nexus780
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ralph wrote:
And you call that choice? Frankly, I'd call it moronic.

It sounds pretty strange to me, too, but in the german thread I've read of some people having major trouble with Xorg (allthough fixes for most circumstances were suggested, dunno how good they work). And: if people want to make moronic choices.. well, the handbook describes how to get Windows into grub - well, that's most certainly crazy from a security point of view. But if people want security holes, let them - that's what we got hardmasked ~arch for, right? Well, that seems like a good way to deal with this for me, coupled with a message in gentoo-announce, just to make sure everyone knows the state of our XFree (should it come back, I actually don't mind just thought I had something potentially useful to say ;) )...
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scarr
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand Xorg is supposed to be a fork of XFree, but:

I just "upgraded" to XOrg and have had nothing but problems for the past 2 days. I have been searching through every forum and website that I can think of to fix the issue, I have.

My Issue

With XFree, I never saw this issue.
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nexus780
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little point a lot of people seem to have missed (on purpose? :D ). Nobody is being forced to get rid of XFree. Yes, not having it in the standard portage makes it harder to keep it. But not that hard afaik. Just make a portage overlay and put the necessary ebuild/-s (which, I have read here or in the german thread, are still in the CVS, so they should be well easy to find - CVS via your browser is on the Gentoo main page) in it. Or do it the hard way and get XFree from XFree.org. Or you could just do emerge -upv --oneshot update1 update2 etc. instead of emerge -Dupv world...
Btw have a look at their Distro-Support page, they seem to have screwed themselves over quite badly with the new license :(
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nexus780 wrote:
A little point a lot of people seem to have missed (on purpose? :D ). Nobody is being forced to get rid of XFree. Yes, not having it in the standard portage makes it harder to keep it. But not that hard afaik. Just make a portage overlay and put the necessary ebuild/-s (which, I have read here or in the german thread, are still in the CVS, so they should be well easy to find - CVS via your browser is on the Gentoo main page) in it. Or do it the hard way and get XFree from XFree.org. Or you could just do emerge -upv --oneshot update1 update2 etc. instead of emerge -Dupv world...
Btw have a look at their Distro-Support page, they seem to have screwed themselves over quite badly with the new license :(


By not having it in Portage, we are effectively being forced to move to Xorg. If it wasn't for the fact that my emerge -u world started requiring Xorg all of a sudden, I probably would have waited on Xorg until more people had better success.

Now I might have to bastardize portage with an overlay for XFree, just so I can have X11 again, or wait until somebody has a bit of information for fixing my problem.
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jonnevers
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scarr wrote:


By not having it in Portage, we are effectively being forced to move to Xorg. If it wasn't for the fact that my emerge -u world started requiring Xorg all of a sudden, I probably would have waited on Xorg until more people had better success. The move from xfree to xorg, was actually

Now I might have to bastardize portage with an overlay for XFree, just so I can have X11 again, or wait until somebody has a bit of information for fixing my problem.


I still have yet to see any real problems with xorg.... not a single person has posted anything that amounts to actual information. I see rants and rants but no concrete information. and what is worse what is posted is largely factually incorrect. xorg-x11 has been in portage for a long while... the installation handbook for gentoo has specified the installation of xorg as the the X server for quite some time too.

have any of you people that are complaining tried just coping your XF86CONFIG to the appropriate xorg.conf file? That is the sum total of the configuration for a system already running XFree. Gentoo's move from xfree86 to xorg was actually SLOWER then the other mainstream distros.

It is understandable if you don't want to upgrade, but you must also understand that there are issues at hand and YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THIS IS A SUPPORT FORUM AND IF YOU POST ASKING FOR HELP AND SUPPLY SOME INFORMATION THE GENTOO COMMUNITY WILL GET YOUR SYSTEM BACK ONLINE!.

This community is what makes gentoo, gentoo. And all this thread seems to be doing is, ignoring the wonderful support brought by thousands of volunteers (like myself, my time is not worth nothing, so posting here is in some small way my contribution to gentoo).


Last edited by jonnevers on Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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nexus780
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scarr wrote:
nexus780 wrote:
A little point a lot of people seem to have missed (on purpose? :D ). Nobody is being forced to get rid of XFree. Yes, not having it in the standard portage makes it harder to keep it. But not that hard afaik. Just make a portage overlay and put the necessary ebuild/-s (which, I have read here or in the german thread, are still in the CVS, so they should be well easy to find - CVS via your browser is on the Gentoo main page) in it. Or do it the hard way and get XFree from XFree.org. Or you could just do emerge -upv --oneshot update1 update2 etc. instead of emerge -Dupv world...
Btw have a look at their Distro-Support page, they seem to have screwed themselves over quite badly with the new license :(


By not having it in Portage, we are effectively being forced to move to Xorg.

I just pointed out 2 certainly working (the overlay and getting it traditionally from xfree.org) and one potentially working way how to keep xfree. Just do an inject (or whatever it was that you tell emerge to think it installed xorg when it didn't), and that should solve most dependency problems - it worked when I got xorg (it was still ~ at the time) on a fresh install and some things wanted xfree as dependency. What else do you want? It'll probably take 5 minutes to do overlay, I really can't see your problem with that, sorry.
scarr wrote:
If it wasn't for the fact that my emerge -u world started requiring Xorg all of a sudden, I probably would have waited on Xorg until more people had better success.

You can still do that now.
scarr wrote:
Now I might have to bastardize portage with an overlay for XFree, just so I can have X11 again, or wait until somebody has a bit of information for fixing my problem.

I wouldn't say bastardize, since it is the same ebuilds that until recently were part of the "official" general public portage tree. You'll just be a bit slower on converting than most of us, but what the heck, who cares? As long as it works for you, that's what Gentoo stands for and that's what you can do quite easily. You'll have to live with the security holes, which probably don't even apply to you, but that didn't bother you too much while xfree was in portage, so why should it now? ;)
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Bigun
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was working fine with Xorg v6.7.0 (which from what I heard is Xfree incarnate), but when I "upgraded" to 6.8.0, all of a sudden my ATI drivers weren't supported anymore. I'm ok with putting in Xorg as an upgrade, but I'm not ok with taking Xfree out of portage. Given, it may not be supported anymore, but how long has it been unsupported? A matter of years? Not hardly. It's a functional workhorse of Linux, I didn't see a need in taking it out just yet.

But again, I'm just me, and that was my opinion.
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nexus780
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigun89 wrote:
I was working fine with Xorg v6.7.0 (which from what I heard is Xfree incarnate), but when I "upgraded" to 6.8.0, all of a sudden my ATI drivers weren't supported anymore.

The ATi drivers are not what I'd call a driver, I'd call them a punch in the face of every ATi under Linux user ;)
bigun89 wrote:
I'm ok with putting in Xorg as an upgrade, but I'm not ok with taking Xfree out of portage. Given, it may not be supported anymore, but how long has it been unsupported?

Just put it back into yours ;)
And it's been unsupported long enough to have unfixed security holes, the deprecation of XFree in Gentoo has been announced at least a few months ago, Xorg has been the standard X Server for quite some time as well. So you did have warning, you have plenty of ways of keeping XFree, and if you still want to complain: Volunteer as XFree-Maintainer, and it'll come back into portage... That's what a dev said here and I'm certain he wasn't lying.
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scarr
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonnevers wrote:
YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THIS IS A SUPPORT FORUM AND IF YOU POST ASKING FOR HELP AND SUPPLY SOME INFORMATION THE GENTOO COMMUNITY WILL GET YOUR SYSTEM BACK ONLINE!.


I do understand, and I have helped the Gentoo forum community as I can as well. I have an issue that I have posted, I am going to post the logs and such to it so I can get help on it.

I was just posting that it doesn't make sense to remove an Ebuild from portage if the replacement package has as many issues as it appears to have.

I understand there have been some people that have installed with NO problems at all. That's great. It doesn't seem like the success to failure rate is there yet for xorg.
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Bigun
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nexus780 wrote:
[And it's been unsupported long enough to have unfixed security holes, the deprecation of XFree in Gentoo has been announced at least a few months ago, Xorg has been the standard X Server for quite some time as well. So you did have warning, you have plenty of ways of keeping XFree, and if you still want to complain: Volunteer as XFree-Maintainer, and it'll come back into portage... That's what a dev said here and I'm certain he wasn't lying.


I never said there wasn't a warning (although I will say, most likely, the majority of us don't read the daily news announcements). And I'm not complaining, just stating my humble opinion. And believe me, if I knew enough about coding, I would do what I could to support Xfree. But I don't, so I can't.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ralph wrote:

So let me get this straight. You want the gentoo devs to leave a package in portage that is not only unmaintained by them but also has known security vulnerabilities that are not fixed by upstream anymore because some people perceive xorg, which has in it's 6.7 incarnation nearly the exact same codebase as xfree, as unstable?
And you call that choice? Frankly, I'd call it moronic.


I'm still using XFree and the only reason I haven't switched is because I still see people with Xorg issues when I skim the forums. I plan to switch when the issues die down, since XFree 3.9999? doesn't give me issues. Anyway, I gather people might just have trouble with proprietary drivers, which aren't real issues in my opinion, but I admit I haven't read the Xorg posts carefully.

However, SEVERAL MONTHS AGO when I tried to update a simple gui app, and portage wanted me to remove XFree in favor of Xorg... well, that was uncool, given that portage has the "virtual-X" capability. Issues with Xorg at the time were numerous and documented all over the forums, and there's no way I'd risk Xorg on my bread and butter machine. But anyway, the issue was corrected later.

But today, this thread informs me that Xfree has been removed, and an "emerge xfree -pv" confirms this. Ugh. Now I'll just build a package from the already installed xfree, and watch portage very carefully in the future.
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nexus780
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigun89 wrote:
nexus780 wrote:
[And it's been unsupported long enough to have unfixed security holes, the deprecation of XFree in Gentoo has been announced at least a few months ago, Xorg has been the standard X Server for quite some time as well. So you did have warning, you have plenty of ways of keeping XFree, and if you still want to complain: Volunteer as XFree-Maintainer, and it'll come back into portage... That's what a dev said here and I'm certain he wasn't lying.


I never said there wasn't a warning (although I will say, most likely, the majority of us don't read the daily news announcements). And I'm not complaining, just stating my humble opinion. And believe me, if I knew enough about coding, I would do what I could to support Xfree. But I don't, so I can't.

Sorry, didn't mean no offence. But there's a lot of people just complaining without proper reason on this issue, I thought you're one of them.
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Bigun
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nexus780 wrote:
Sorry, didn't mean no offence.


None taken
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HeartBreakKid
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been running Xorg for a LONG time (since is was marked as unstable), and I've not had any issues with it on several machines and several video card chipsets.

I really don't understand the attitude of the users who are complaining that they are FORCED to upgrate to XOrg. I'm sorry, forced by whom? If you don't want to upgrade to XOrg, then DON'T UPGRADE. If you are running emerges as a cron job to update your system then I for one have no sympathy for you.

Not one of the complainers in this thread has posted up any relevant information for us to help find and resolve their issues.
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Bigun
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Not one of the complainers in this thread has posted up any relevant information for us to help find and resolve their issues.


Go here --> www.ati.com

And bitch until they block your IP.
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scarr
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Not one of the complainers in this thread has posted up any relevant information for us to help find and resolve their issues.


I am not complaining, I was just expressing my opinion on the state of Xorg.

I am not posting my information in THIS thread, because it appears to just be a thread about moving to xorg.

I have a seperate issue that has MY problems I am running into. I am happy that Xorg has been working so well for you. Like I said earlier, it doesn't seem like the success to failure rate for Xorg is very high at the moment.

No I do not have emerge -u world in a cron. I just happened to try to emerge frozen-bubble the other day for my wife, and seeing as xfree was removed from portage, it required xorg to be installed. Yes, I CHOSE to install xorg. The only reason for that was because it is the direction Gentoo is going. Since I chose to go in this direction, yes, it is MY fault. The fact that xfree is no longer in portage is not my fault though.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigun89 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Not one of the complainers in this thread has posted up any relevant information for us to help find and resolve their issues.


Go here --> www.ati.com

And bitch until they block your IP.
:?:
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:31 pm    Post subject: xorg Reply with quote

Xorg has works great for me, took a little tweaking with the video modes to get it going correctly, but got it working great in 1024x768 at 75hz.. my only problem is i can't seem to get 640x480 75hz, i get some 640x512 in 60hz and no 800x600.. heheh.. My only think is 1024 is to small in quake 3 so i gota figure out how to get 640x480 going at 75hz or i will cry,, but i will live for now.. ;)
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Bigun
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HeartBreakKid wrote:
bigun89 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Not one of the complainers in this thread has posted up any relevant information for us to help find and resolve their issues.


Go here --> www.ati.com

And bitch until they block your IP.
:?:


I had one issue with Xorg (and actually it's with ATI), ATI doesn't have a driver for Xorg v6.8.0, and since that version was unmasked, next time I updated.... no more X. So in order to answer your post, here's how you can help "resolve" this issue:


Go here --> www.ati.com

And bitch until they block your IP.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there is an easy way to fix the ati issue! just mask >=x11-base/xorg-x11-6.8.0. and you won´t have any troubles. isn´t it also possible to mask xorg completly? wouldn´t that solve the problem for everyone that doesn´t want to upgrade?

and talking about gentoo is all about choices, that is what i read in this thread

ciaranm wrote:

One of Gentoo's goals is to provide reasonable choices where such choices are possible. This does not mean that we will always provide you with a choice for absolutely everything, especially if it makes no sense to do so. It also does not mean that the phrase "Gentoo is about choice" is adequate justification for any proposal.

For example, we will provide you the choice of KDE, Gnome or a lightweight window manager. We will provide you with a choice of how packages with optional depencies are built. We will provide you with a choice of how often you want to update your system. What we won't do is go around adding silly or pointless features under the justification that they provide more choice.
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