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mcspiff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 109
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 Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| I think it helps to remeber that the people with the nuts CFLAGS will ask for support anyways, no matter how many big warning signs are put up because their brother's-friend's-tax driver's-prostitute says that having a 5 lines of CFlags will make your box %0.0025 faster while still being %100 stables and that bug they found most obviously be in glibc, couldnt possibly be the Cflags. Then the dev's must deal with them regardless. If you like being able to set your Cflags at all, support the devs in making their lives easier. You owe them, not the other way around. |
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charlieg
Advocate
Joined: 30 Jul 2002
Posts: 2149
Location: Manchester UK
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Pango (1.8.1) doesn't compile with CFLAGS := " -fvisibility=hidden" either. XOrg does. 
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discomfitor
l33t
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 927
Location: None
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I use (and am a big fan of) | Code: | CFLAGS="-march=i686 -O2 -pipe -fomit-frame-pointer"
CXXFLAGS="${CFLAGS}" |
I don't use -march=pentium4 because it does screwy things at the moment.
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racoontje
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Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 1290
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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Just for curiosity, what do the binary packages of other distros use?
BTW, --fuckroll-loops and --ffast-math do actually break things. People who use it just don't notice it because someone else has broken it (be)for(e) them and the package now disables the flag. |
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Birtz
Apprentice
Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 272
Location: Osijek / Croatia
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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@spb:
Great bashing man, suppose you don't want to tell him about ALLOW ... ups ups, shut up, shut up 
Cheers
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augury
l33t
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 722
Location: philadelphia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:50 am Post subject: |
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Well how is it that you would define "horked."
I say major because, although I have not found any broken functionality, I have not tested each and every application. |
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nife
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:56 am Post subject: |
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This is a general note to some of the dev who have posted in here:
As a dev it should be your responsibilty to stay as far away as possible from flaming people as possible. Instead you tend to try to incite discord. If there a cflags in there are broken don't you think it better to educate rather then threaten people with marking bugs wontfix ? I appreciate all of your work, and if I had time i would help you out. But you still have a responsibilty to the community not to be power hungry.
Oh and by the way I do read gcc-devel and I do know and understand a good deal of the asm the is created. So don't put this down as someone who just wants to bitch about cflags because I want them. I run a pretty vanilla set. |
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Muso
Veteran
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1052
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| nife wrote: | This is a general note to some of the dev who have posted in here:
As a dev it should be your responsibilty to stay as far away as possible from flaming people as possible. Instead you tend to try to incite discord. If there a cflags in there are broken don't you think it better to educate rather then threaten people with marking bugs wontfix ? I appreciate all of your work, and if I had time i would help you out. But you still have a responsibilty to the community not to be power hungry.
Oh and by the way I do read gcc-devel and I do know and understand a good deal of the asm the is created. So don't put this down as someone who just wants to bitch about cflags because I want them. I run a pretty vanilla set. |
Look... don't lecture devs who have to constantly remind users not to build their systems with -O9 -ffast-math -ff*ck-up-my-system. It is a perpetual problem for the various gentoo devs to handle bug reports from people using retarted CFLAGS. All of their frustration is not only understandable... but warranted.
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MG-Cloud
Apprentice
Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 200
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| Reading through this thread, I see that the overwhelming recommendation seems to be to remove -O3 and to use -O2. I'm wondering why this is - for stability, for performance, or both? |
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spb
Retired Dev
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 2135
Location: Cambridge, UK
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| augury wrote: | Well how is it that you would define "horked."
I say major because, although I have not found any broken functionality, I have not tested each and every application. |
So this doesn't count, I suppose? You can't tell me that system isn't completely broken. |
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Enlight
Advocate
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 3519
Location: Alsace (France)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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I used to test lots of cflags in a chrooted environment (GCC 3.4.3) and nerver found at this moment faster than "-march=my_cpu -O2 -fomit-frame-buffer" only taking in account sys and usr times.
But from what I've already read, some flags turns by O1 (and as O1 is involved by O2) seems to slow down the system so I was wondering if manually setting the flags implies by O2 withouts some turned by O1 would still be a safe way to build a system.
May someone enlighten me about this? |
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| nife wrote: | This is a general note to some of the dev who have posted in here:
As a dev it should be your responsibilty to stay as far away as possible from flaming people as possible. Instead you tend to try to incite discord. If there a cflags in there are broken don't you think it better to educate rather then threaten people with marking bugs wontfix ? I appreciate all of your work, and if I had time i would help you out. But you still have a responsibilty to the community not to be power hungry. |
No, as a dev it is my responsibility to make sure that users who don't know any better don't get suckered in by all the lies posted by a small group of idiots who try to make out that using screwy build environments is 'perfectly stable'. Remember, every time you tell someone to use -ffast-math, you waste significant amounts of developer time.
Actually, really I'd hope that the forum mods would do that kind of thing, but they've consistently shown that they don't have developers' interests at heart... |
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racoontje
Veteran
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 1290
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| nife wrote: | This is a general note to some of the dev who have posted in here:
As a dev it should be your responsibilty to stay as far away as possible from flaming people as possible. Instead you tend to try to incite discord. If there a cflags in there are broken don't you think it better to educate rather then threaten people with marking bugs wontfix ? I appreciate all of your work, and if I had time i would help you out. But you still have a responsibilty to the community not to be power hungry.
Oh and by the way I do read gcc-devel and I do know and understand a good deal of the asm the is created. So don't put this down as someone who just wants to bitch about cflags because I want them. I run a pretty vanilla set. |
If you did actually know what you were talking about, you'd know that gcc doesn't generate ASM. ASM is a language, basically human-readable machine code, which has to be piped through an assembler and a linker first. |
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| racoontje wrote: | | nife wrote: | This is a general note to some of the dev who have posted in here:
As a dev it should be your responsibilty to stay as far away as possible from flaming people as possible. Instead you tend to try to incite discord. If there a cflags in there are broken don't you think it better to educate rather then threaten people with marking bugs wontfix ? I appreciate all of your work, and if I had time i would help you out. But you still have a responsibilty to the community not to be power hungry.
Oh and by the way I do read gcc-devel and I do know and understand a good deal of the asm the is created. So don't put this down as someone who just wants to bitch about cflags because I want them. I run a pretty vanilla set. |
If you did actually know what you were talking about, you'd know that gcc doesn't generate ASM. ASM is a language, basically human-readable machine code, which has to be piped through an assembler and a linker first. |
Eh? |
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Chaosite
Guru
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 540
Location: Right over here.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| racoontje wrote: | | If you did actually know what you were talking about, you'd know that gcc doesn't generate ASM. ASM is a language, basically human-readable machine code, which has to be piped through an assembler and a linker first. |
Dude...
gcc -S ...  |
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nife
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| racoontje wrote: | | nife wrote: | This is a general note to some of the dev who have posted in here:
As a dev it should be your responsibilty to stay as far away as possible from flaming people as possible. Instead you tend to try to incite discord. If there a cflags in there are broken don't you think it better to educate rather then threaten people with marking bugs wontfix ? I appreciate all of your work, and if I had time i would help you out. But you still have a responsibilty to the community not to be power hungry.
Oh and by the way I do read gcc-devel and I do know and understand a good deal of the asm the is created. So don't put this down as someone who just wants to bitch about cflags because I want them. I run a pretty vanilla set. |
If you did actually know what you were talking about, you'd know that gcc doesn't generate ASM. ASM is a language, basically human-readable machine code, which has to be piped through an assembler and a linker first. |
Like has been said, gcc -S
And that was in response to where a dev said to actually read and understand the asm created by gcc. So yes I actually know what I was typing |
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stonent
Veteran
Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 1139
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: | | Ugh. I hope you're not intending to *ever* report any bugs or ask for help with broken packages... |
Cheese with your whine?
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| stonent wrote: | | ciaranm wrote: | | Ugh. I hope you're not intending to *ever* report any bugs or ask for help with broken packages... |
Cheese with your whine? |
No, but you can give me some cookies. |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: | No, as a dev it is my responsibility to make sure that users who don't know any better don't get suckered in by all the lies posted by a small group of idiots who try to make out that using screwy build environments is 'perfectly stable'. Remember, every time you tell someone to use -ffast-math, you waste significant amounts of developer time.
Actually, really I'd hope that the forum mods would do that kind of thing, but they've consistently shown that they don't have developers' interests at heart... |
"they don't have developers' interests at heart..." No, you are correct, we aren't here to appease the almighty developer. We're just here to try and keep a community environment working with as few problems as possible. As for moderators telling someone to NOT use --ffast-math, I wonder how many moderators would be qualified to explain why it shouldn't be used. I myself am not, which is why I volunteered to help moderate instead of develop.
If yourself (and any other interested devs) compile a list of what not to do, I'd be glad to refer people to it.
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | "they don't have developers' interests at heart..." No, you are correct, we aren't here to appease the almighty developer. We're just here to try and keep a community environment working with as few problems as possible. |
And, as I have said before, your attitude in that matter is seriously harming Gentoo's image and our ability to keep things working. |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: | | And, as I have said before, your attitude in that matter is seriously harming Gentoo's image and our ability to keep things working. |
OK, so I'm supposed to randomly go around and tell users to not do things? That makes no sense.
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racoontje
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Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 1290
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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OK people, relax, both of you.
You both have points. pjp made an interesting point: if developers would spend a little bit of time on making a list of what Gentoo allows you to do but that absolutely doesn't need doing, they'd save themselves a lot of time on the long run.
ciaranm has a point too.
| ciaranm wrote: | | racoontje wrote: | | nife wrote: | This is a general note to some of the dev who have posted in here:
As a dev it should be your responsibilty to stay as far away as possible from flaming people as possible. Instead you tend to try to incite discord. If there a cflags in there are broken don't you think it better to educate rather then threaten people with marking bugs wontfix ? I appreciate all of your work, and if I had time i would help you out. But you still have a responsibilty to the community not to be power hungry.
Oh and by the way I do read gcc-devel and I do know and understand a good deal of the asm the is created. So don't put this down as someone who just wants to bitch about cflags because I want them. I run a pretty vanilla set. |
If you did actually know what you were talking about, you'd know that gcc doesn't generate ASM. ASM is a language, basically human-readable machine code, which has to be piped through an assembler and a linker first. |
Eh? |
You're not going to tell me that the ELF binary you get when you cat /bin/ls (produced partly by the linker and gcc) is the same thing as mov %rax %rbx, right?
Last edited by racoontje on Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ciaranm
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 1719
Location: In Hiding
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| racoontje wrote: | OK people, relax, both of you.
You both have points. pjp made an interesting point: if developers would spend a little bit of time on making a list of what Gentoo allows you to do but that absolutely doesn't need doing, they'd save themselves a lot of time on the long run.
ciaranm has a point too. |
It's really quite simple. As I've said before, don't put CFLAGS in make.conf. |
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pjp
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Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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Now I know "what" but not the "why." When I'm asked why after telling a user, to what am I supposed to refer them to? They aren't going to pay attention to "because," nevermind the ones that won't pay attention period.
If CFLAGS shouldn't be in make.conf, thats a portage issue (or whatever semantics claim ownership to the file) and not a forums issue.
Also, no matter how much people are told not to do something, they are going to continue doing what they want because they "read" that it would make their system bigger/better/faster/more.
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racoontje
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Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 1290
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| ciaranm wrote: | | racoontje wrote: | OK people, relax, both of you.
You both have points. pjp made an interesting point: if developers would spend a little bit of time on making a list of what Gentoo allows you to do but that absolutely doesn't need doing, they'd save themselves a lot of time on the long run.
ciaranm has a point too. |
It's really quite simple. As I've said before, don't put CFLAGS in make.conf. |
Wouldn't it be much easier to simply ignore bug reports that were sent in with -ffast-math, -omg-optimized etc? If you hide CFLAGS better, ricers will look harder, plus they will think they are even 'better' because they had to 'work so hard' to get their system 'optimized'. |
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