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curtis119
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While a majority of my posts are in OTW, I do regulary answer tech posts on other parts of the forum. OTW gives me something to do in my spare time and is my main social outlet. I have to admit that if it were deleted I probably would not be here. I would continue to use gentoo though. Closing OTW would be a very bad move for gentoo in general. The forums, and OTW in particular, are the reason that gentoo is so well known across the FOSS community and the driving force behind the rise of the gentoo install base.

A community supported distro like gentoo relies on donations and sales of t-shirts and cd's. The store report clearly states that user support and support from Nvidia and HP has allowed gentoo to offer development boxes of various architectures to devs. Sales/donations are critical for the continued existance of gentoo and that quality development environment that gentoo offers it's devs. If the gentoo user base declines so do these sales and donations.

Even the corporate sponsorships from nvidia and HP are, in part, due to the large user base that gentoo has. Would these companies give support to a distro that had no users? No, large corporations help FOSS distros that pull in large amounts of users that are going to buy more of their product (nvidia is regularly touted on otw over ati and any other video card. Don't you think nvidia knows this?). It's simple economics.

Many educational institutions support gentoo by hosting rsync and distfiles mirrors. Would these institutions offer this support if the faculty/staff/students didn't use gentoo and prod those responsible into offering this support? Probably not.

Devs are the people that create gentoo a countless number of them regularly post on otw. How many devs in general were drawn to gentoo becuase of the forums and otw? Would these people remain devs if gentoo lost it's reputation of being the best FOSS forum on the web? Would more or less people become new devs? After all, in the FOSS world reputation is everything. If the distro you develop for is not well known why bother donating your time?

In short, deleting OTW would be nothing short of suicide for gentoo and we all know this. Why must we go through this charade of threatening to delete otw every few months? Why not just take the advice that has been offered and simply add more mods that are dedicated to otw? There are many forum members who would gladly donate the time and effort to this endeavour (myself included).

I have no idea if what I just stated is true or not. I could be way off base in my assessment of the effects otw has. But I doubt it.
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skyfolly
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the Linux support forums out there contain Off-the-Wall related sections, I just dun understand why Gentoo leave itself out.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

curtis119 wrote:
While a majority of my posts are in OTW, I do regulary answer tech posts on other parts of the forum.
.....

I totally agree, get 2 or 3 more mods for otw only.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If all the posts were like curtis119 there would be no problem.. .

the 'trouble' lies with what I would call a 'cult' of OTW'ers - they know who they are - who get fun from bashing religion and politics..

get rid of those subjects, keep the fun and semi-serious OTW subjects and OTW would continue to be something special at Gentoo.

regards
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To play devil's advocate Curtis, Debian doesn't even have official support forums, same with Mandrake, etc. The support forums are what the Gentoo community is known for, not Off The Wall.

While I admit to being mildy obsessed with this part of Gentoo, it contributes nothing noticably positive for the reputation of Gentoo. If Off the Wall is not going to be removed, current moderators will either need to shift focus to it (hence drawing away needed attention to other parts of the forum) or more moderators need to be added.

Those that run this forum know best. They will have to make the choice to either continue to spread their resources thin, increase the number of moderators, or remove Off the Wall alltogether.


Last edited by Slyde on Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:11 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skyfolly wrote:
Most of the Linux support forums out there contain Off-the-Wall related sections, I just dun understand why Gentoo leave itself out.

None of the major distributions even have offically sanctioned support forums to begin with. There are 'fanboy' based forums, but I found nothing on Mandrake, Slackware or Debians site that offered free support via official forums.

Off the Wall is a luxuary that should be appreciated.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've said it before a few times: there is no need to delete it. Simply ensure that anyone posting there doesn't get a post count.

A few other forums have done that and, surprise, surprise ( :roll: ) the OTW posts dropped 90%. That way, when people come to Gentoo Forums, having a decent post count from the replier doesn't necessarily mean competence but it does mean that they are willing to try to help and not discuss the size of ETs penis (that well known linux/Gentoo support conumdrum)

OTW will still be there for those that can't possibly use Gentoo without it (what?!) and so they will be happy, bandwidth will be reduceed significantly and everyone will be happy (except those that only ever post in OTW to look good by having 5000 veteran posts)

It still remains for the rest of us to ignore OTW if we want. And yes, I do post in OTW but wouldn't miss it in the slightest if it was deleted.

It's Just an idea that other forums have done, or they have banned anything not computer related from OTW, so you could still discuss OTW stuff, just vaguely related OTW stuff.

Just IMHO :D
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skyfolly
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mandrake club is not within mandrake? What I mean is, with support forums, there is hardly no OTW.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

StifflerStealth wrote:
Some people may get the notion that they can do what they want or say want they want because this is the Internet, well, behave like you would in real life, because your words and actions do effect others for real, and emotions and dreams can get hurt just the same on the Internet as in real life.


There's one problem with this....

I'm worse in real life.

I should wear a shirt that gives me a "NC-17" rating, so people know if they should avoid me.


Really, though, if OTW wastes that much of your resources... so be it. Take it down, I won't care much. As stated elsewhere (in response to ban threats), I'll just go to o-t-w or trotw and #otw to get my fix. No biggie. I didn't join the gentoo forums in order to be a burden, I joined so that I could make some posts to the tips and tricks section. Off The Wall was just a side effect that happened.

I will state that the amount of times that I respond to other more "valuable" posts will likely decrease, however. But, as always, you must take the good with the bad. Weigh out the pros and cons and come to your own decision.

I will state another thing as well. OTW will *NEVER* change, regardless of the amount of moderation and banning that happens. I will not change my responses to accomodate anyone, and I doubt many other people will either. Base your actions on the PRESENT STATE of OTW, as it will not change.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't say I'm overly surprised...

Sure, I spend a lot of time in OTW, but I do offer help on support threads from time to time. I think I'd still do that if OTW went.

Getting rid of OTW would save us from the fools who find us on Google and come along with no damn clue what Linux is, let alone Gentoo.

The no mods thing is interesting, but would leave you open to warez and spam, unless you got a member of the OTW community to trawl for that, but that could be quite difficult and tedious...

Hmm.

Let's see what happens next.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personal opinion, stick the rules up, whatever they may be, and if people don't stick to them, warn them, then ban them if they continue. You'll take a hit initially but after that, no problems.

I'm all for easy going and liberal minded, but it's your place, your rules, and what you expect and consider is right should be what is adhered to.

Edit: One thing I think should be in place is an auto-ban for anyone backchatting to a mod. They shouldn't have to put up with what they do just because they enforce the rules.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I think that if OTW is consuming too much mod resources we only have 2 options:

a) Close OTW

b) Put more mod resources. If so many people (me included) want OTW to remain open, then some should be willing to put their time in it. New mods could be chosen by current mods and would only regulate OTW,

Just my 2 cents.


DISCLAIMER: I've not read all the posts in this topic, so maybe this has already been suggested.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are some suggestions that can be done:

1) make OTW subscription (request) only. This stops trolls and search engines going through OTW and pickling up topics....

2) Make a 10 post limit in support forums to apply for OTW...

3) Banning politics and religion is pointless. For some people the world seems defined by either one or both of these....also gnu/linux is political. You can't seperate DCMA or IP and gnu/linux...

Most crap is started off by people who don't give a .... about being banned because they only came to troll. Stopping the postcount ++ is a good idea too.

This will prevent it coming in in posts since last visit etc. and pissing people who have no wish to participate or see posts mocking religion or politics.

OTW serves a purpose in that its a place to hang round... Often people will check to see if they can help with something but OTW provides an interest for those who are knowledgeable about Gentoo. (that excludes me I only have 1 machine currently running gentoo and its a server i don't mess about with much)...

However I know from elsewhere that in order to keep those who don't come here to ask how to restart a service or something simple there needs to be some sort of entertainment/reward.

im a mod on the mandrakeusers formum and we went through all this and even held OTW up as an example of the fact it can work... we banned politics and rel and lost a lot of the longer standing and more knowledgeable members... and have since reinstated it with the things above!

We get far less trolls (or non) since the hiding away of OTW from Mr. Google...

just my 2c
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

10k1 wrote:
I think deleting OTW would be THE biggest mistake the Gentoo forums could make. I think it would kill the forums, one way or another. I hope it stays.

Whether or not it stays is in your hands (the collective "your"), not ours.

--kurt
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kill it.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like idea of an undermoderated forum with the exception of reporting spam and/or warez links. Just slap a big disclaimer at the top. Why not update the rules of the forum....if you can't act civil go to #otw or otw.psytrip.org, no warnings....first offense == ban
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, so there have been some good suggestions made on how to help save OTW. I'll recap the ones that caught my eye:

pjp wrote:
Maybe renaming OTW to "Enter At Your Own Risk. No Lifeguard On Duty." would suffice.

This is an idea, but I firmly believe that every Gentoo user has a right to expect to be treated with common courtesy and decency. I don't want any of our official support channels to appear as though they condone or, worse, promote attacks against other users. Remember, we're not asking for people to stifle their opinions or change their views. We're simply asking people to be civil.

Never mind the whole spam/warez issue.

curtis119 wrote:
Why not just take the advice that has been offered and simply add more mods that are dedicated to otw?

This is an option. Perhaps it's worth exploring. Personally, I'm not sure it's the best option. It just seems wrong to continually throw more time and energy at something that isn't central to our main mission. Also, as some folks have pointed out (albeit often in a whiny tone), moderating is an inherently subjective process. I might dustbin a thread or ban a user that another mod wouldn't even blink at.

That said, this option may be preferable to deleting it entirely.

pickledonion wrote:
I've said it before a few times: there is no need to delete it. Simply ensure that anyone posting there doesn't get a post count.

Anyone who knows me knows that I'm anti-phpBB-modding. That said, in this case, it may be worth exploring. This isn't a solution in and of itself, but it may be part of a larger solution.

In fact, as I was typing with this, I asked ian! how hard it would be to do. It's apparently very easy, so we're going to go ahead and implement it. Let's see what sort of results it produces.

wolvenwraith wrote:
I will not change my responses to accomodate anyone, and I doubt many other people will either.

Posts like this are extremely irritating. Like it or not, this is a social venue and, if you wish to participate, you will be expected to conform to certain social norms. Really outlandish ones like "being civil" and "not attacking other users". If you find this too onerous or difficult to comply with, then please leave now and save me the trouble of banning you. Which brings me to the last option we're considering.

klieber wrote:
bring out the ban stick like it's never been brought out before

In my opinion, we've been way too nice with repeat offenders. Some folks have been unbanned that I'm not sure deserved a second chance. Other folks probably deserve a banning, but have skirted just below the line, without crossing it.

So, one possibility is to dramatically increase the bans. This probably isnt a solution in and of itself, either, as working around the ban system isn't really that difficult. Still, folks who care about their precious post count might think twice before killing of their favorite nick by posting something stupid.

--kurt
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
pickledonion wrote:
I've said it before a few times: there is no need to delete it. Simply ensure that anyone posting there doesn't get a post count.

Anyone who knows me knows that I'm anti-phpBB-modding. That said, in this case, it may be worth exploring. This isn't a solution in and of itself, but it may be part of a larger solution.

In fact, as I was typing with this, I asked ian! how hard it would be to do. It's apparently very easy, so we're going to go ahead and implement it. Let's see what sort of results it produces.


Done.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

how about implenmenting a sentencing structure.

offenders will be sentenced to various scales of punishments, eg. life imprisonment.

Lets consult any laws experts in here.

8) :lol:
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ian! wrote:
klieber wrote:
pickledonion wrote:
I've said it before a few times: there is no need to delete it. Simply ensure that anyone posting there doesn't get a post count.

Anyone who knows me knows that I'm anti-phpBB-modding. That said, in this case, it may be worth exploring. This isn't a solution in and of itself, but it may be part of a larger solution.

In fact, as I was typing with this, I asked ian! how hard it would be to do. It's apparently very easy, so we're going to go ahead and implement it. Let's see what sort of results it produces.


Done.


It's a shame that our postcounts will remain at the levels they are currently at, taking account of past OTW posts. It'd be kinda nice if all our past OTW posts stopped counting, but that would require the database and PHP to be structured very differently.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
In fact, as I was typing with this, I asked ian! how hard it would be to do. It's apparently very easy, so we're going to go ahead and implement it. Let's see what sort of results it produces.


I doubt this will alter much. Limiting postcount will only limit posts from people who cares for them, and I doubt that trolls, provos and verbal political/religious hardasses will care about that.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

egad not my postcount! I mean, er.

I really enjoy OTW. After a while, you start filtering out the posts you don't wanna read, like "your mama sucks at pr0n" and "God killed baby Jesus so don't believe" ...

I would certainly be sad if OTW disappeared because it's a fantastic place to ... meet people with similar interests. I don't care if Slyde or Stormy Eyes or redseal (ok, maybe not redseal) share extremely different points of views, they're still good people and I wouldn't have met them if it weren't for OTW.
Every forum needs an OTW.. If it clutters up the database, I would suggest opening up another forum if it's within the cash flow and just provide a link to it from here..
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ian! wrote:
klieber wrote:
pickledonion wrote:
I've said it before a few times: there is no need to delete it. Simply ensure that anyone posting there doesn't get a post count.

Anyone who knows me knows that I'm anti-phpBB-modding. That said, in this case, it may be worth exploring. This isn't a solution in and of itself, but it may be part of a larger solution.

In fact, as I was typing with this, I asked ian! how hard it would be to do. It's apparently very easy, so we're going to go ahead and implement it. Let's see what sort of results it produces.


Done.

so posts in OTW dont count towards postcount now?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wtf my postcount went down lol i had 1400 a minute ago and now look 8O
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

downpour wrote:
wtf my postcount went down lol i had 1400 a minute ago and now look 8O

ha ha ha. i dun care.
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