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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nyteryda wrote:
What I don't understand is this approach, I can name at least one troll who has got several people banned, yet he still remains to cause chaos, is the reason that he is not banned, because you cannot prove they are not his opinions, because trolling does violate your rules both in terms of professionalisum, and in terms of hostility in this case. It doesn't seem logical to me to leave the cause of the problem there whilst you constantly mop up (ban/lock) the results.
I'll assume that this users's posts have been reported to the Violations thread in Feedback. If not, start there. If we see 6 posts from a user that are reported, but none are overtly a violation, then no, the user will not be banned. If somewhere in a maze of 300 posts, there is a violation, we aren't likely to find it by chance. If you think the poster is a troll, the best solution is to not respond.

People should take responsibility for their actions, and not try to blame others. Whether anyone does or not, it is the standard they are held to on this forum.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gowator wrote:

Quote:
There are certain individuals around here who will insult you, your religion, your nation, your grandmother ... if you do not think same way they do on an issue.

That depends on your POV... If you tell me I shouldn't masturbate because its against your religion and Im going to hell then I'll tell you to go have a tug and calm down... If you insist curtis ios going to hell for being gay then Ill probably call you small minded... if you keep going I might say your religion means less than nothing to me... If you count that as an attack on your religion then you shouldn't be in OTW (IMVHO)



Man, you are throwing too many things in one basket. I'm not going to tell you that YOU should not masturbate because it is against MY religion. In a conversation, I may tell you what my religion says about masturbation, or any other topic for that matter. And you are free to think or act on the subject any way you choose.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've noticed people are getting credited for posts that were once in OTW and were later moved to the dustbin. Shouldn't these posts not count either?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brenden wrote:
I've noticed people are getting credited for posts that were once in OTW and were later moved to the dustbin. Shouldn't these posts not count either?

Heh.. Yeah, I think that's how redseal ended up with 1 post.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
nyteryda wrote:
What I don't understand is this approach, I can name at least one troll who has got several people banned, yet he still remains to cause chaos, is the reason that he is not banned, because you cannot prove they are not his opinions, because trolling does violate your rules both in terms of professionalisum, and in terms of hostility in this case. It doesn't seem logical to me to leave the cause of the problem there whilst you constantly mop up (ban/lock) the results.
I'll assume that this users's posts have been reported to the Violations thread in Feedback. If not, start there. If we see 6 posts from a user that are reported, but none are overtly a violation, then no, the user will not be banned. If somewhere in a maze of 300 posts, there is a violation, we aren't likely to find it by chance. If you think the poster is a troll, the best solution is to not respond.

People should take responsibility for their actions, and not try to blame others. Whether anyone does or not, it is the standard they are held to on this forum.

I have to agree with nyteryda.
If we really want to find a solution(i do),we have to agree that these problems lately cames from such proffesional trollers,who never clear violate the rules.
Now if pjp-clieber ask from us to take the responsibility for our actions,they should start from themselves.I know i sound rude maybe,but honestly its not in my intentions.
No matter i respect the mods work into other sections of the forum,i do,but that doesnt make them good enough to moderate otw(with some bright examples,plate for instance).
So find the right people for the job,i nonimate curtis,who are willing to do the dirty job.
Rules?
Code:
Fuck *
moron
arshole.

*=you,your mother,your country,your religion,your flag...etc.

Now if there is a problem of one poster behaviour (redseal),again let the members deside what to do with him.
No pms,no email etc...Just open a thread here,where everybody can participate and express feelings,opinions,blah,blah...
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgive me for not reading the entire 10 or 11 pages as i'm feeling a bit lazy atm and so i'm not sure how much of this has or hasn't been mentioned. As always, I speak for msyelf.

The way I see it, I really don't give a damn about postcount, i'm not arsed in the slightest and I don't see it reflecting anything other than the obvious.

I come to OTW specifically, because I enjoy discussion and interaction and yet at the same time I don't particularly like arguing. In that sense i'm happy to see what appears to be a strengthening of the commitment to a free and easy going atmosphere where people can come, talk, and not be insulted, simply because another perceives their opinion negatively.

In the case of Lovechild, I certainly wouldn't wish to defend him as he seems quite capable of expressing himself and, imho, I can see it as being rather obvious that "fuck you" is against the guidelines. The thing is, it does raise the question for me at least, of what is actually considered to be offensive. Do we consider something to be offensive purely because of the use of an expletive when at the same time, to defame a mans work is considered as just and fair?

My intention with that question is not to go over old ground or stir up trouble, it's just that there have been times in the past when I considered myself to have been offended to a far greater degree than the use of expletives would ever do. In those cases there has been zero interjection from mods or admins and I have either had to respond whilst biting my lip and kicking the cat, putting it all down to the "thick skin required for OTW", or, stfu and take it on the chin. Most of the time I just write that stuff off as inane, although questioning my integrity I generally consider far more seriously than swearing, or at least seriously enough to sometimes feel provoked into a negative response.

My intention as I say, is simply to ask what the guidelines are so that they are clear in my mind. My initial thoughts stand, that this is "your house, your rules" and we stick by them regardless of personal feelings or interpretations. I am involved in many things and one is that I am an admin on a leading UK game server, possibly the leading game server for the particular game, and the policy which exists there is I think a fair one:

You read the rules on the way in, and if you don't adhere to them you get a warning followed by a kick or permanent ban. If you backchat an admin with abuse then usually that excludes you from stage one and you get kicked straight away. There is always an appeals procedure of course but admins are respected to such a degree that if there is any contention, their word is final and their decision supported.

That appears to be what is being proposed here and if so, then i'm all for it, but clarification would be helpful as I consider disrespect, defamation and deliberate abuse in an equally dim light and it would be nice to know what standards I can expect in the future.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Ennead wrote:
The way I see it, I really don't give a damn about postcount, i'm not arsed in the slightest and I don't see it reflecting anything other than the obvious.

Hear, hear! IMHO the admins shouldn't stop at simply reconsidering which posts should be tallied to come to the final figure. Why not eliminate this moronic statistic altogether, thus purging all the forums here of the postcount++ breed of idiocy forever?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Ennead wrote:
... Do we consider something to be offensive purely because of the use of an expletive when at the same time, to defame a mans work is considered as just and fair?...


Excellent post Ennead,and that exactly i was trying to say with my poor english.
For me Stormy and lovechild they have to pay a logical price (a week away from otw or something) but thats all.
Its really pitty to see such open minds,incapable to see the obvious.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syntaxis wrote:
The Ennead wrote:
The way I see it, I really don't give a damn about postcount, i'm not arsed in the slightest and I don't see it reflecting anything other than the obvious.

Hear, hear! IMHO the admins shouldn't stop at simply reconsidering which posts should be tallied to come to the final figure. Why not eliminate this moronic statistic altogether, thus purging all the forums here of the postcount++ breed of idiocy forever?


Because for the most part, postcount actually means something outside of otw.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dat wrote:
Because for the most part, postcount actually means something outside of otw.

Really? And what is that?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dat wrote:
Syntaxis wrote:
The Ennead wrote:
The way I see it, I really don't give a damn about postcount, i'm not arsed in the slightest and I don't see it reflecting anything other than the obvious.

Hear, hear! IMHO the admins shouldn't stop at simply reconsidering which posts should be tallied to come to the final figure. Why not eliminate this moronic statistic altogether, thus purging all the forums here of the postcount++ breed of idiocy forever?


Because for the most part, postcount actually means something outside of otw.


Such us?
Look here the answer i took from tariq.firoz,he is no more than a month member,and he has only 3 posts.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syntaxis wrote:
dat wrote:
Because for the most part, postcount actually means something outside of otw.

Really? And what is that?


Well, if someone has a postcount of 4000 just from helping people, and someone has a postcount of 1 and they both offer me two different suggestions, I will take the suggestion of the former over the latter. (that is one hell of a sentence :) ). Perhaps I'm the only one. Who knows.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ag_x wrote:
dat wrote:
Syntaxis wrote:
The Ennead wrote:
The way I see it, I really don't give a damn about postcount, i'm not arsed in the slightest and I don't see it reflecting anything other than the obvious.

Hear, hear! IMHO the admins shouldn't stop at simply reconsidering which posts should be tallied to come to the final figure. Why not eliminate this moronic statistic altogether, thus purging all the forums here of the postcount++ breed of idiocy forever?


Because for the most part, postcount actually means something outside of otw.


Such us?
Look here the answer i took from tariq.firoz,he is no more than a month member,and he has only 3 posts.


Wow!! Someone with 3 posts is actually able to search a mailing list?? /Sarcasm

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way saying that people with low postcounts are useless, or that they know nothing. All I'm saying is that if someone has a history of helping people in these forums then chances are, they'll be able to help someone in the future.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well,in mozillazine,you have to click to the profile to see the postcount.Same method here maybe?To satisfy both of us.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gowator wrote:
nyteryda: the point is if anyone says "hey this is getting out of hand" you should respect it.... (even redseal)....


I understand what kliber is saying. I am not disagreeing with what he says. I am disagreeing with those who say that no one will listen to anyone. I belive what you are saying is a "perfect world scenario" in a perfect world after a heated 20 page thread when your adversary tacks on the end of there 100 line post of why you sooo are wrong, "this is getting out of hand lets stop" yes you probably should stop. I doubt most people would though. On the other hand, i believe that if a person whom you had not been arguing with for the last 24 hours, came in and said "hey came down" you would be more likely to listen, so am trying to show, is where what klieber said can very well be a reality even though we are in fact all human.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dat wrote:
Well, if someone has a postcount of 4000 just from helping people, and someone has a postcount of 1 and they both offer me two different suggestions, I will take the suggestion of the former over the latter.

That's not logically sound. The postcount itself has no bearing whatsoever on the likelihood of either individual's response being correct or helpful in the specific instance at hand.

All one can reliably deduce from person A having a higher postcount than person B is "person A posts here more often than person B". I personally don't think this is sufficiently helpful to offset the "W00t! My coc^H^H^Hpostcount is larger than yours!" mentality that crops up all too often.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ag_x wrote:
Well,in mozillazine,you have to click to the profile to see the postcount.Same method here maybe?To satisfy both of us.

That might actually work. The imbeciles who view a high postcount as a status symbol in itself would probably be deterred from inflating their own by the fact that it's no longer so prominently displayed, whilst those foolish enough to want to compare two individuals' postcounts in order to find out whose response is more likely to be right (lol! :-D) would still have the freedom to do so if they wish.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My own .. rarely humble opinion :P

My postcount comes, I think, mainly from asking questions. For the most part I follow instructions relatively well and when it comes to helping anyone that's new i've got half a chance if I can remember to recite the manual. That is effectively what i've done with a friend and fellow clan member who recently installed Gentoo. He still required a hell of a lot of his own knowledge to get him through.

When it comes to knowledge, well, i'm an old git, i've been on the internet for somewhere between 5 to 10 years although i'm not sure how long but i'm a relatively quick learner. The thing is, i'm 40 years old and that comes with all the worldly experience you can imagine. I've been there, done, and seen most things, got the t-shirt and wrote "I woz ere" on the wall. There is a tendency in most adults (as everyone is aware i'm sure) to write off anyone and everyone who they don't feel matches up to them for whatever reason and age is one of the big obvious ones. The first thing I learnt when I went on the internet though, was that it's a pile of shit. Me, with all my natural perception of "self" was hearing opinions that were sound and logical from people young enough to be my child. I was having questions answered in ways far beyond anything I could comprehend by "children" of 12 and 13 yrs of age.

All this seems rather obvious I know, but I never look at postcounts anymore, or age, or anything else, I look at words. I'm no genius and if someone is willing to offer me a possible solution then I thank them gratefully and take pleasure in having learnt something new irrespective of whether they are 10yrs or 50yrs old, they have 1 post or 1000, they are a "guru" or a "noob". Lol, maybe i've just grown to hate preconception :lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syntaxis wrote:
...whilst those foolish enough to want to compare two individuals' postcounts in order to find out whose response is more likely to be right (lol! :-D) would still have the freedom to do so if they wish.

Sarcasm. :D
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syntaxis wrote:
dat wrote:
Well, if someone has a postcount of 4000 just from helping people, and someone has a postcount of 1 and they both offer me two different suggestions, I will take the suggestion of the former over the latter.

That's not logically sound. The postcount itself has no bearing whatsoever on the likelihood of either individual's response being correct or helpful in the specific instance at hand.


Sorry you don't agree. It doesn't change the fact that someone with a higher postcount is more active in the non-otw forums (as opposed to someone with a postcount of 0). *Generally* this means that they have been more helpful in support threads and have a higher probability of helping me out. How do you think they got so many posts to begin with?

If you don't believe this, look at the rankings for the highest poster (non-mods) and check out their posts. Then pick out someone who has posted once or twice.

You can't just simplify what I said and turn it into User A has 1 more post than User B so User A > User B. That's not what I'm saying and if you can't understand that, I'm sorry.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ag_x wrote:
If we really want to find a solution(i do),we have to agree that these problems lately cames from such proffesional trollers,who never clear violate the rules.
No, the problem is the people that CHOOSE to respond to them.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syntaxis wrote:
ag_x wrote:
Well,in mozillazine,you have to click to the profile to see the postcount.Same method here maybe?To satisfy both of us.

That might actually work. The imbeciles who view a high postcount as a status symbol in itself would probably be deterred from inflating their own by the fact that it's no longer so prominently displayed, whilst those foolish enough to want to compare two individuals' postcounts in order to find out whose response is more likely to be right (lol! :-D) would still have the freedom to do so if they wish.


Imbecile? Isn't it the name calling like this that's getting OTW in trouble in the first place. Because some people can't understand how to act in a forum?

Anyway, if you really want it simplified, let me put it like this:
I ask a question.
User A with 3000 support-area posts gives me an answer.
User B with 1 post gives me an answer.

I'm going to try user A's answer first. Are you telling me you'd try user B's first? I'm not saying user B can't be right, I would certainly try the answer given by the person with more support experience.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
ag_x wrote:
If we really want to find a solution(i do),we have to agree that these problems lately cames from such proffesional trollers,who never clear violate the rules.
No, the problem is the people that CHOOSE to respond to them.

No, the problem is what you are doing for this.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the topic of Postcount..,
I think, although probably impossible, a kama voting system would be better... i will explain...

Should PersonB posts a reply to a personA's question in a support forum, there should be a little push button, "Give Karma", and if personA thinks was helpful to him, he should click the button, and PersonB's Karma points go up, and if a person act's like a knob on the forums, the mods (and only the mods) should be able to remove some of his karma points.

Thus the points are based on respect not on crap.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nyteryda wrote:
On the topic of Postcount..,
I think, although probably impossible, a kama voting system would be better... i will explain...

Should PersonB posts a reply to a personA's question in a support forum, there should be a little push button, "Give Karma", and if personA thinks was helpfull to him, he should click the button, and PersonB's Karma points go up, and if a person act's like a knob on the forums, the mods (and only the mods) should be able to remove some of his karma points.

Thus the points are based on respect not on crap.


I agree with that 100%. I mentioned it before on another thread somewhere that (atleast OTW) should be based on the /. karma style. Though I can see how it would apply to the support areas too. Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible in phpBB. Is it?
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