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nyteryda
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evangelion wrote:
nyteryda wrote:
I agree with klieber, on this one, it's a slippery slope, how long before some bright spark decides, "hey we can charge people to use the support forums, I know we can call it a club too".


Well, so is getting rid of OTW. I mean, if they get rid of OTW, what's there to stop them from getting rid of all the forums? Why is invite-only OTW a "slippery slope", whereas getting rid of OTW is not?


1) No one is actually getting rid of OTW, unless we don't behave.
2) There is a big difference, between removing a forum section so no-one has access, and creating a elite club, of the priviledge few, sorry but that stinks to me, more so than normal because this is Linux and FOSS?
3) I explained about how makeing things invite only could well lead to things like paid access, removing OTW is just that removing OTW, you aren't asking anything of someone.
4) invite only will definatly lead to arseholes who think they are better than everyone else.

I don't agree with Shutting down OTW, but i would rather that than create a bunch of privalleged and elitist snobs.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SubAtomic wrote:
nyteryda wrote:
SubAtomic wrote:
these people certainly don't contribute to any tech support/troubleshooting in other threads. So all I can say to those that leave when OTW is scrapped is ... goodbye.


Well, thats not true, after our postcounts have been taken away you can see that alot of us have posted in support forums, and helped other people. some more than others.


It's disappointing that you must paraphrase in a misleading manner to try to win a losing argument.

The quote in full should be
SubAtomic wrote:
The people I see leaving after the operation are those that don't run gentoo in the first place and these people certainly don't contribute to any tech support/troubleshooting in other threads.


Edit: It should be noted that at time of writeing i thought that SubAtomic meant run as in "people who ran the gentoo project" ie proper contributers to it, it has since been pointed out that he meant, people who run it on there system, i have put in this explination as i am sure you can see how a different assuption of the word "run" makes my post into saying something totally different

Wow by extending the sentence it made all the difference :roll:
I don't run gentoo, I have written in too the support forums (more than you it seems), curtis119 doesn't run gentoo he has over 700 posts in support forums. and who knew that cokehabit had over 600 post in the support forums, and if he ran gentoo, then i wouldn't be too far away from suicide.

The only people that can really be seen as running gentoo are the devs/admins/mods and possibly a few people that sort stuff out behind the sceens that we don't know about. 95% of people on OTW do not run gentoo in any manner. but many do help people in a unoffical capacity on the support forums.

many/some of which may not bother to log in, if they didn't want to see if anyone replied to that thread about cokehabit eating babies. sure there are many people who help and never set foot in OTW, but thinking the only people who will stop comming if what they are interested in disappers are people who never post in support threads, is just plain naive.

So what are you talking about ? or do you see me as running gentoo ?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:

We do this already. It leads to:
* users lying about which kernel they run
* users denying that their dodgy kernel is causing problems
* certain people complaining to devrel/drobbins that developers are abusing them by telling people not to use their kernels
* developers being accused of "elitism"
* developers being accused of "provoking people"
* people trying to create the impression that there is a massive developer conspiracy out there keeping people from using patched kernels, which are clearly better

Mmm, yes, the usual problems. Well, not much you can do but maintain a professional attutide at all times (which is very hard sometimes I know). Perhaps something that migh improve the situation somewhat is maintaining a document that accurately describes how to do testing the right way. Standard ways of testing, standard ways of reporting.
Now there will always be some users that won't listen to reason, but I think a lot of them are just clueless, not malicious. Having a book, and teaching them to go by the book may lessen the loads on the devs somewhat. Any way, good luck to you and the other devs. I for one do very much appreciate your efforts.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nyteryda wrote:
I don't run gentoo, I have written in too the support forums (more than you it seems), curtis119 doesn't run gentoo he has over 700 posts in support forums.

That's fine and we certainly appreciate the help you do provide. That said, if we have to choose between keeping a hostile, unprofessional, nasty environment and losing a few valuable contributors, well...we're going to choose the latter.

I think people are forgetting here that we're not asking much. All we're asking for is that people be civil in their interactions with one another. From the responses here, people seem to have all but given up, as if this task is impossible. Is it really so unreasonable to expect people show a little common courtesy towards one another? We manage to do it in the other forums...

How about if the OTW posters who care so much about keeping this forum start policing themselves and their fellow OTW'ers a little better? Ask people to calm down, point out where they cross the line, etc. (all in a constructive, polite manner, of course)

Honestly, if you can't manage to do that much, then this forum deserves to be killed off.

--kurt
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hds wrote:
curtis119 wrote:

By the way, my postcount just went down to 722.

gotcha - finally ;)


:P

I'll catch up. My tech threads usually require just 1 or 2 posts to help someone out. Unlike otw where I post 40 or 50 times to a single thread.

Besides helping someone usually requires some thought, reading of bug reports, searching the forum to see if anyone else has had that problem, reading man pages, reading support pages/forums/mailing lists from the upstream devs and at a last resort asking devs questions on irc. In otw, on the other hand, you can just type something into the box and hit submit.

My postcount will slowly keep going up, not as fast as it once did but now each postcount+ will actually mean something. I kinda like this otw not counting towards postcount. 8)
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
How about if the OTW posters who care so much about keeping this forum start policing themselves and their fellow OTW'ers a little better? Ask people to calm down, point out where they cross the line, etc. (all in a constructive, polite manner, of course)

--kurt

This is just asking for a flamewar.

I still don't see why the admins don't assign a couple OTW only moderators. Wheres the problem with this?

If it's such a chore to keep after OTW'ers, then get some people who are willing to do the dirty work to do it.

Also, Slyde and I are more then happy to take over the "operation" of OTW at a different site with no official connection to Gentoo (if thats what the Gentoo Gods want).
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brenden wrote:
I still don't see why the admins don't assign a couple OTW only moderators. Wheres the problem with this?

I replied to this earlier. Search back and you'll find it (too lazy to dig up the link)

I'm not opposed to it, though I don't think it's the best idea. Anyone who volunteers for this role would need to agree to mod according to the forum guidelines (vs. what they think the guidelines really should be)

--kurt
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
I replied to this earlier. Search back and you'll find it (too lazy to dig up the link)

I'm not opposed to it, though I don't think it's the best idea. Anyone who volunteers for this role would need to agree to mod according to the forum guidelines (vs. what they think the guidelines really should be)

--kurt

This is just a matter of selecting the right moderator. I'm sure there are several people who are willing to let their feelings and personal opinions take a back seat to keep things sane.

I did read your reply already, but sometimes saying things more then once helps reinforce them.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one wants to moderate OTW because no one wants to arbitrate in arguments between 12 year olds at the best of times.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
nyteryda wrote:
I don't run gentoo, I have written in too the support forums (more than you it seems), curtis119 doesn't run gentoo he has over 700 posts in support forums.

That's fine and we certainly appreciate the help you do provide. That said, if we have to choose between keeping a hostile, unprofessional, nasty environment and losing a few valuable contributors, well...we're going to choose the latter.

I think people are forgetting here that we're not asking much. All we're asking for is that people be civil in their interactions with one another. From the responses here, people seem to have all but given up, as if this task is impossible. Is it really so unreasonable to expect people show a little common courtesy towards one another? We manage to do it in the other forums...

How about if the OTW posters who care so much about keeping this forum start policing themselves and their fellow OTW'ers a little better? Ask people to calm down, point out where they cross the line, etc. (all in a constructive, polite manner, of course)

Honestly, if you can't manage to do that much, then this forum deserves to be killed off.

--kurt


with a few exceptions...most stufff that flames up tends to be either:
1. Someone who came to troll once and doesn't give a monkeys ass if that login is banned ... this can be direct but usually they participate then they gradually go OTT and drag someone with them... then you get someone else who gets offended by someones provoked response to a troll... hence the troll might not actually step over the line themseves...

2. A few individuals who just troll.....

With all respect someone who is valuable in the support forums is worth 20 trolls but you can't just generalise them....

basically anyone who doesn't like OTW shouldn't see it...
those who have 'given' up I suscpect have given up because they know they can't control a troll who just sets out to troll.

I have no objection to preventing the endless postcount ++ but wouldn't you rather have mindless stuff elsewhere than the support forums....
I think what nyteryda was trying to say his it makes his first instinct to go elsewhere and actually post... my first instinct is the opposite... I actually have a genuine question but I feel if I go and post it it will be seen as a stupid postcount ++... or vindicate the closing of OTW....

Every argument on what looks professinal etc. can be solved just by stopping the search engines picking up on OTW... and stopping those who get offended by it from having to view it in their searches ....

with less trolls stumbing into OTW people have no excuse for not being civil...
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gowator wrote:
with a few exceptions...most stufff that flames up tends to be either:
1. Someone who came to troll once and doesn't give a monkeys ass if that login is banned ... this can be direct but usually they participate then they gradually go OTT and drag someone with them... then you get someone else who gets offended by someones provoked response to a troll... hence the troll might not actually step over the line themseves...

2. A few individuals who just troll.....

You know the funny thing about trolls? If you don't respond to them, they go away.

You cannot blame the situation in OTW on trolls alone. The majority of the responsibility for the issues we're having falls squarely on the shoulders of the people who let themselves get sucked into the troll's lair.

--kurt
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry if this has been answered before. But why not let OTW be unmoderated?
Just post a warning along the lines of "abandon all hope ye who enter here." or something like that. So if you choose to participate in OTW, you forfeit your right to complain about a poster.

If OTW takes up too much bandwidth, why not just automatically delete threads that reach a certain age and which has recieved no new posts.
This should only apply to OTW of course.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
nyteryda wrote:
I don't run gentoo, I have written in too the support forums (more than you it seems), curtis119 doesn't run gentoo he has over 700 posts in support forums.

That's fine and we certainly appreciate the help you do provide. That said, if we have to choose between keeping a hostile, unprofessional, nasty environment and losing a few valuable contributors, well...we're going to choose the latter.

what i wrote was in reply to a assumption that some of us that post in OTW do not help in support aswell. it was a faulty assmuption and i pointed it out.
I will assume unless told otherwise that the rest of you post is general and not directed at me specifically (for discussion purposes).
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChojinDSL wrote:
Sorry if this has been answered before. But why not let OTW be unmoderated?

it has been answered before. Please read the previous posts to see why we're not going to do this.

--kurt
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
nyteryda wrote:
I don't run gentoo, I have written in too the support forums (more than you it seems), curtis119 doesn't run gentoo he has over 700 posts in support forums.

That's fine and we certainly appreciate the help you do provide. That said, if we have to choose between keeping a hostile, unprofessional, nasty environment and losing a few valuable contributors, well...we're going to choose the latter.

I think people are forgetting here that we're not asking much. All we're asking for is that people be civil in their interactions with one another. From the responses here, people seem to have all but given up, as if this task is impossible. Is it really so unreasonable to expect people show a little common courtesy towards one another? We manage to do it in the other forums...

How about if the OTW posters who care so much about keeping this forum start policing themselves and their fellow OTW'ers a little better? Ask people to calm down, point out where they cross the line, etc. (all in a constructive, polite manner, of course)

Honestly, if you can't manage to do that much, then this forum deserves to be killed off.

--kurt



I just wanted to point out that I do indeed run gentoo on all my (4)home desktops, my laptop and my mothers desktop. I also support windows, debian and slackware on my clients boxes. I have also set up openBSD as a router many times (although i no longer support those boxes). Xandros is on my nieces laptop and debian sarge is on my grandmothers desktop.

I prefer gentoo as my personal distro not because of OTW but because the gentoo docs are the best in the FOSS community, the support forums are second to none and the devs are responsive to user input. Gentoo is and will remain my personal choice regardless of the status of OTW.

klieber, many of us already do police ourselves and others. You don't see a lot of what goes on in irc, IM and email (and the secret otw irc channel - seriously). Most of us discuss the unruly behaviour and frown on it. We encourage others to be civil on OTW and not let themselves descend into immaturity. Obviously we are not always successful. Sometimes individuals CHOOSE to break the rules in order to make a point or, sometimes, just to be a fucking asshole. That is their choice to make. It's unfortunate but still the individuals choice. Please don't judge all of us based on the antics of a few. Judge us each on our own merits and past/present behaviour. Thank you.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
You cannot blame the situation in OTW on trolls alone. The majority of the responsibility for the issues we're having falls squarely on the shoulders of the people who let themselves get sucked into the troll's lair.


What I don't understand is this approach, I can name at least one troll who has got several people banned, yet he still remains to cause chaos, is the reason that he is not banned, because you cannot prove they are not his opinions, because trolling does violate your rules both in terms of professionalisum, and in terms of hostility in this case. It doesn't seem logical to me to leave the cause of the problem there whilst you constantly mop up (ban/lock) the results.


Edit, replaced the world attitude with approach in first line
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

curtis119 wrote:
klieber wrote:
nyteryda wrote:
I don't run gentoo, I have written in too the support forums (more than you it seems), curtis119 doesn't run gentoo he has over 700 posts in support forums.

That's fine and we certainly appreciate the help you do provide. That said, if we have to choose between keeping a hostile, unprofessional, nasty environment and losing a few valuable contributors, well...we're going to choose the latter.

I think people are forgetting here that we're not asking much. All we're asking for is that people be civil in their interactions with one another. From the responses here, people seem to have all but given up, as if this task is impossible. Is it really so unreasonable to expect people show a little common courtesy towards one another? We manage to do it in the other forums...

How about if the OTW posters who care so much about keeping this forum start policing themselves and their fellow OTW'ers a little better? Ask people to calm down, point out where they cross the line, etc. (all in a constructive, polite manner, of course)

Honestly, if you can't manage to do that much, then this forum deserves to be killed off.

--kurt



I just wanted to point out that I do indeed run gentoo on all my (4)home desktops, my laptop and my mothers desktop. I also support windows, debian and slackware on my clients boxes. I have also set up openBSD as a router many times (although i no longer support those boxes). Xandros is on my nieces laptop and debian sarge is on my grandmothers desktop.

I prefer gentoo as my personal distro not because of OTW but because the gentoo docs are the best in the FOSS community, the support forums are second to none and the devs are responsive to user input. Gentoo is and will remain my personal choice regardless of the status of OTW.

klieber, many of us already do police ourselves and others. You don't see a lot of what goes on in irc, IM and email (and the secret otw irc channel - seriously). Most of us discuss the unruly behaviour and frown on it. We encourage others to be civil on OTW and not let themselves descend into immaturity. Obviously we are not always successful. Sometimes individuals CHOOSE to break the rules in order to make a point or, sometimes, just to be a fucking asshole. That is their choice to make. It's unfortunate but still the individuals choice. Please don't judge all of us based on the antics of a few. Judge us each on our own merits and past/present behaviour. Thank you.


Ohhh, I see what he means, Run gentoo as in people who use gentoo :oops: I applogise, I thought he meant people who run the gentoo project.
I am sorry. I applogise to SubAtomic, for that.

Although I belive that the assuption that anyone in the OTW forum who does run gentoo and who does post to support forums, will keep coming here (gentoo forums) as much should what interests them disapear is wrong. Although i cannot use anyone as a example anymore as i don't know weather it is OTW that brings people and they stay to support or visa-versa. (some of each i suspect)

My own personal belife is that OTW is somewhat addictive, and that with it gone, I might slowly stop comeing to the forums. or end up somewhere else. not even through deliberate choice but just because the want to log in is not there so much or something more interesting holds my attention.

For The Record I have 2 Boxes on Gentoo, and 1 Debian Box.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:

I think people are forgetting here that we're not asking much. All we're asking for is that people be civil in their interactions with one another. From the responses here, people seem to have all but given up, as if this task is impossible. Is it really so unreasonable to expect people show a little common courtesy towards one another? We manage to do it in the other forums...

I could not agree more. There are certain individuals around here who will insult you, your religion, your nation, your grandmother ... if you do not think same way they do on an issue. Why not just factually confront an opinion with an opposite one will remain outside my domain of understanding. I love to debate, but some of the debates really turn ugly because of personal attacks.
I'll say again:
If it's getting out of control it and it's eating up the bandwidth at the expense of real world useful technical info, remove it.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
You know the funny thing about trolls? If you don't respond to them, they go away.


But this is an unrealistic goal on the OTW as it is now. You might as well ask for world peace.
Too many people are too easily roused as flamebait.

You ask that we police and correct ourselves and others.
This is - as brenden pointed out - an invite to several flamefests.
Some people will - in their best "Dennis from the Holy Grail"-impersonation - call it oppressive moderation, censorship, weak political correctness and use sentences and terms like 'netiquette-nazi', 'You have no authority to tell me what to do and say you humourless mummy with shriveled genitals'* and 'you can't handle the truth, huh?'.
The moderators will become more busy than they already are.

*This is merely meant as an example and not directed towards any individual. If you feel targeted, take a step to the side and watch my remark whizz by.

Edit: Minor corrections
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leafo wrote:
klieber wrote:
You know the funny thing about trolls? If you don't respond to them, they go away.


But this is an unrealistic goal on the OTW as it is now. You might as well ask for world peace.
Too many people are too easily roused as flamebait.

You ask for that we police and correct ourselves and others.
This is - as brenden pointed out - an invite to several flamefests.
Some people will - in their best "Dennis from the Holy Grail"-impersonation - call it oppressive moderation, censorship, weak political correctness and use sentences and terms like 'netiqette-nazi', 'You have no authority to tell me what to do and say you humourless mummy with shriveled genitals'* and 'you can't handle the truth, huh?'.
The moderators will become more busy than they already are.

*This is merely meant as an example and not directed towards any individual. If you feel targeted, take a step to the left/right and watch my remark whizz by.


Well said. I'm with you on this.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aleskx wrote:
Leafo wrote:
klieber wrote:
You know the funny thing about trolls? If you don't respond to them, they go away.


But this is an unrealistic goal on the OTW as it is now. You might as well ask for world peace.
Too many people are too easily roused as flamebait.

You ask for that we police and correct ourselves and others.
This is - as brenden pointed out - an invite to several flamefests.
Some people will - in their best "Dennis from the Holy Grail"-impersonation - call it oppressive moderation, censorship, weak political correctness and use sentences and terms like 'netiqette-nazi', 'You have no authority to tell me what to do and say you humourless mummy with shriveled genitals'* and 'you can't handle the truth, huh?'.
The moderators will become more busy than they already are.

*This is merely meant as an example and not directed towards any individual. If you feel targeted, take a step to the left/right and watch my remark whizz by.


Well said. I'm with you on this.


Well if we have friends and people we respect in OTW, then that may not be so valid, for example.

I might be argueing with TheEnneald over the war in iraq "Shock Horror" and we might get heated, now if TheEnneald said to me "hey this is getting out of hand" then i might respond as you have suggested, however if someone else who was not part of the discussion (and whom i respect as a non-partisan) said, "Hey take a step back" it would have a different result.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anybody else see the irony in this thread? The thread talks about closing OTW because people cannot control their tempers and get too extreme in their behavior. Well, we have seen tempers flare, people banned, arguing, name calling, personal attacks, ... need I go on? You guys are going through all the reasons why the Admins want to close this forum in the first place. You are just giving them more reasons to want to close this forum in your attempts to keep it from being closed. So I say the following to try to help you:
Stop while you are ahead.
Well, I don't think you are ahead to begin with, but stop anyways. If you want to show that OTW can remain open, then stop this arguing ... well, stop posting in this thread altogether, and start posting in OTW in a sensible manner. Show the Admins that you can handle yourselves and don't just say that you can here and then argue with someone saying that you can't. The Admins must be laughing at the stupidity in this thread, because I am laughing my bum off at all this. Although, it's more pityful than funny. *shacks head*
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gowator
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nyteryda: the point is if anyone says "hey this is getting out of hand" you should respect it.... (even redseal)....

Like klieber says trolls who are not fed go away...

However the problem is stoppng people responding...

also i don't fully agree with klieber because there are also professional trolls....
stupid as it sounds, just like 5yrs ago only ther paranoid had firewalls at home now its almost required!
Same way with BB's... now there are people who will set out only to wind people up, not discuss. This is subtly different to people like cokehabit or Stormy Eyes who would wind peope up to stimulate conversation .. but the problem is the actions of these people makes it difficult to spot the REAL TROLLS...

There are also those who hate off-topic and keep replying...
Those who (and this is just the first quote i found)
Quote:
There are certain individuals around here who will insult you, your religion, your nation, your grandmother ... if you do not think same way they do on an issue.

That depends on your POV... If you tell me I shouldn't masturbate because its against your religion and Im going to hell then I'll tell you to go have a tug and calm down... If you insist curtis ios going to hell for being gay then Ill probably call you small minded... if you keep going I might say your religion means less than nothing to me... If you count that as an attack on your religion then you shouldn't be in OTW (IMVHO)

Same goes for me atttacking FAA policy over 802.11G ... If i say the driver prob for 802.11G is caused by America and you call that an attack on america then again.. your in the wrong place...

However there is a simple solution to....
Quote:
I love to debate, but some of the debates really turn ugly because of personal attacks.


Ask the person to stop the personal attack, pm them or do it on the thread ... if they don't report it to a mod!
I know this then generates some mod work but .. nothings perfect!
If you do it publically and you are not making personal attacks yourself you willbe surprised how much of the community will back you, including those arguing against you!!!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StifflerStealth wrote:
You guys are going through all the reasons why the Admins want to close this forum in the first place. You are just giving them more reasons to want to close this forum in your attempts to keep it from being closed.


No me. I'm trying to argument for filter capabilities.
I see these scenarios:

1) The OTW equipped with personal filter capabilities (I'm pretty sure there is a relatively easily implemented php-mod or two of these out there) and/or some handpicked coldblooded resident moderators who mainly monitors and only interferes in rare cases. This is my favourite.

2) An "Abandon all hope ye who enter on your own discretion"-unmoderated OTW. Not recommended.

3) Current situation with regular "Let's try to be nice and will you please be considerate and moderate yourselves"-reminders and a few bannings. Doubt this will alter much.

4) Closing the OTW. Might be a good thing. Would definately make me visit the other subforums more often.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leafo wrote:
StifflerStealth wrote:
You guys are going through all the reasons why the Admins want to close this forum in the first place. You are just giving them more reasons to want to close this forum in your attempts to keep it from being closed.


No me. I'm trying to argument for filter capabilities.
I see these scenarios:

1) The OTW equipped with personal filter capabilities (I'm pretty sure there is a relatively easily implemented php-mod or two of these out there) and/or some handpicked coldblooded resident moderators who mainly monitors and only interferes in rare cases. This is my favourite.

2) An "Abandon all hope ye who enter on your own discretion"-unmoderated OTW. Not recommended.

3) Current situation with regular "Let's try to be nice and will you please be considerate and moderate yourselves"-reminders and a few bannings. Doubt this will alter much.

4) Closing the OTW. Might be a good thing. Would definately make me visit the other subforums more often.


I don't understand why everyone fails to recognize that if OTW is moderated more like Gentoo Chat, then the problem would be solved? That means, leave the technical discussions. Leave the linux discussions not related to gentoo.

Get rid of the religious discussions. Get rid of the alien discussions. Get rid of the nationality discussions. Get rid of the all the stupid threads that people troll over and just leave the tech/linux discussions.
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