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Conservative or Liberal?
Conservative
25%
 25%  [ 15 ]
Liberal
65%
 65%  [ 39 ]
Apolitical
10%
 10%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 60

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lemming
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vote anarchist! :twisted:

I'm not happy with the current US goverment, but I haven't for quite some time. I want a goverment that has strict controls on what companies can do (regulate polution, monopolization, etc...), however individuals should have more freedoms than current.

So partially libertarian, part leftist.

The only other option that would be attractive would be to become world dictator, then I wouldn't have to worry about such niggling issues. :twisted:

(And I declined to vote on the poll itself)
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jonemi
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, let's hear it for Jell-O!

I don't know where I fit in...how come there's no: "Stupid teenager with head full of mush" selection?
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Herodot
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Academic life is not the "real world". Helping your fellow man, socialism, etc. sound nice and noble on paper and in the classroom.

Then you get out in the real world, work 40 hours a week and see how much is taken out of your paycheck and see some of the "people" your money is going to... and your views may change very quickly.

I guess that depends on the person. I would say that this is why a person views doesn't change. You see, if a person is in a sheltered, "unreal" world and has view and opions on what's wrong and how it should be changed, then those views aren't based on direct personal experience, but on a more theoretical approach. Then, when this person enters "the real world", he or she will find that the world actually is in a rotten state, and that he or she really should do something about it, rather than just play along. Working 40 hours a week is playing along, and I agree that such a workload seriously hinders time for thought and uproar.

Quote:
Ironically, academic life is extremely capitalist-oriented. You succeed or fail based on your own intelligence and hard work.

I would probably call it competition-oriented rather than capitalist. Fortunately you can work with other students, most of the time, rather than against them.

Quote:
Imagine if the smartest students' grades were "taxed" and distributed to the weaker students so that everyone is more equal.

The goal isn't to "make equal", but to simply help out. But yes, imagine that knowledge and learning were distributed freely in society... imagine that!

Quote:
The whole educational system would fall apart.

I think it would flourish in a very different form than we see now.

Quote:
How funny that many academics are against a system they themselves are a part of.

If you're not a revolutionary, you have to work with and within the system to some extend. Are you suggesting that people who think schools and workplaces could be organised differently shouldn't go to such places?

Competition within a group is one of the core elements of the modern capitalistic society. Rather than schools, think about the workplace: everybody works a little harder to get that promotion or not to get fired. People with identical jobs, sitting next to each other, compete against each other on a daily basis. A few get better positions, and this is the carrot everybody else is reaching for. Only it's the company who really benefits, making all employees work harder and harder. Imagine a company where everybody were quite satisfied with their positions, and nobody wanted a promotion or a raise. The owner would have to start firing people as a threat to "work harder or you're next".

Competition, the labour market and the concept of unemployment are the foundations of capitalism.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a conservative. Mostly because I hate all other human beings, except Eminem. I like him because he helps me hate everyone else.

<removes tounge from within cheek>

I'm mostly conservative and when I'm forced to label myself this is the label I use. I personally don't think the US political system is all that bad off right now. I think there's a little too much attention to idiotic things like not being bald, short, or fat. Give me a Steven Douglas - Abraham Lincoln debate any day of the week. It's too bad that neither of them would have been 'pretty' enough to make it to a political debate these days.

I like the comparison of academics to capitalism. It makes sense to me. In politics, you have to trash everyone else's ideas to show why yours are better. The same thing goes for academics at the research level. It would be interesting if academics were more like open source software projects where ideas were mostly just presented and stood on their own merit. Either it compiles and works or it doesn't. It's too bad that the same can't be said about academics.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Then, when this person enters "the real world", he or she will find that the world actually is in a rotten state, and that he or she really should do something about it, rather than just play along.

Implying that they didn't feel it was in a rotten state before? I think almost everyone thinks the world needs a lot of improvement. You see it more directly in the working-world though.

Quote:
I would probably call it competition-oriented rather than capitalist. Fortunately you can work with other students, most of the time, rather than against them.

But usually not on exams, and in the case of grade curves it is to your benefit to be better than everyone else.

Quote:
The goal isn't to "make equal", but to simply help out. But yes, imagine that knowledge and learning were distributed freely in society... imagine that!


Okay, helping out. "Helping out" is charity. I have no problem with charity. Imagine that, indeed. I described a forced system, which I still believe is a proper analogy to taxation.

Quote:
I think it would flourish in a very different form than we see now.

How do you propose to get everyone to help each other out? Without forcing them. If you force them, that means you are going against human nature. I argue that going against human nature is absurd. Change human nature, don't go against it. Granted, very difficult.

Quote:
If you're not a revolutionary, you have to work with and within the system to some extend. Are you suggesting that people who think schools and workplaces could be organised differently shouldn't go to such places?

Yes.

Quote:
Competition within a group is one of the core elements of the modern capitalistic society. Rather than schools, think about the workplace: everybody works a little harder to get that promotion or not to get fired. People with identical jobs, sitting next to each other, compete against each other on a daily basis. A few get better positions, and this is the carrot everybody else is reaching for. Only it's the company who really benefits, making all employees work harder and harder.

No, I completely disagree. Everyone benefits, including the employee. Raises usually come with promotions. A company's success is also beneficial to the employees due to continued employment, bonuses, possible stock ramifications, etc.

Quote:
Imagine a company where everybody were quite satisfied with their positions, and nobody wanted a promotion or a raise. The owner would have to start firing people as a threat to "work harder or you're next".

Yep. Yet for many people, this is their perfect world, despite the fact that it simply won't work.

Carl
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Okay, helping out. "Helping out" is charity. I have no problem with charity.

I'm not sure sure - is there a difference between "help" and "charity"? If you help a blind man across the street, is that then help or charity? Never mind....

Quote:
How do you propose to get everyone to help each other out? Without forcing them. If you force them, that means you are going against human nature.

If people don't want to help each other, then something is very wrong. The thing that is currently very wrong is that we don't have time to be nice to each other (the aforementioned 40 hours work week) and that we've become accoustumed to getting paid for every little thing we do. You can't force people to be nice, that's true.

Quote:
I argue that going against human nature is absurd.

True.

Quote:
Change human nature, don't go against it. Granted, very difficult.

You're assuming that people are not friendly and helpful by nature. That's not a very positive attitude, saying that either we must force people or change them. How about letting them act naturally, instead of coerced by the system as we are now?

Quote:
Quote:
If you're not a revolutionary, you have to work with and within the system to some extend. Are you suggesting that people who think schools and workplaces could be organised differently shouldn't go to such places?
Yes.

Find me a student who thinks his or her school is perfect, then we'll talk.

Quote:
No, I completely disagree. Everyone benefits, including the employee. Raises usually come with promotions. A company's success is also beneficial to the employees due to continued employment, bonuses, possible stock ramifications, etc.

The higher the rank, the higher the benefit. For the vast majority of workers in a company, there is only further employment to be gained by pushing harder. A company's success is primarily a success for it's owners. The workers at bottom of the pyramid has no say in company decisions and yet they are the first to be sacrificed by them.
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plate
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[Rubbing my eyes in disbelief] Ok, ok, we're in Off the Wall here, granted, but don't tell me this is what y'all are playing at when the other timezones are asleep! 8O "Conservative"? "Liberal"? What kind of a dichotomy is that supposed to be? And how can you create a two-page-thread about it in a Linux forum within just a few hours? We're all fully aware of US and Rest-of-the-world English terminology differing in quite a few ways, I presume, but let me draw your attention to the fact that from anyone's perspective outside of the US, both your political labels would translate to "reactionary". Your idea of a political "spectrum" seems to be everybody seriously absorbed in discussing, say, the pros and cons of a Charlton "from...my...dead...fingers" Heston speech while being seated on the same side of a plane - and just a handful of people occasionally wondering why it's banking over all the time. If only you had a pilot who'd actually try and trim the damn thing once in a while... :twisted:
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm not sure sure - is there a difference between "help" and "charity"? If you help a blind man across the street, is that then help or charity? Never mind....

Since it was originally an economic metaphor I used the word charity. Indeed, never mind...

Quote:
If people don't want to help each other, then something is very wrong.

Maybe people do want to help each other, maybe not. We certainly won't ever find out the way things are going (towards force).

Quote:
You're assuming that people are not friendly and helpful by nature. That's not a very positive attitude, saying that either we must force people or change them. How about letting them act naturally, instead of coerced by the system as we are now?

You're right, I didn't mean to infer such negativity. I wholeheartedly agree in letting people act naturally (i.e. freely).

Quote:
Find me a student who thinks his or her school is perfect, then we'll talk.

I was pretty happy with my education. Perfection? Can anything be perfect?

Quote:
The higher the rank, the higher the benefit.

But everyone starts somewhere. People don't pop out of the womb and become company executives 40 years later automatically. Hard work plays some part in it. Granted, it is easier for some than others (an inequality impossible to eliminate) but there are countless tales of inspiring corporate ladder-climbing from the lowliest of positions.

Quote:
For the vast majority of workers in a company, there is only further employment to be gained by pushing harder. A company's success is primarily a success for it's owners.

I assume you're speaking of private companies since the public owns public companies. And companies that are not employee-owned and do not have a profit-sharing plan. Yes, out of that subset of companies, I suppose it is primarily a success for its owners. Should there not be advantages to owning a company?

Quote:
The workers at bottom of the pyramid has no say in company decisions and yet they are the first to be sacrificed by them.

Wait a minute, what about unions?

Carl
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Maybe people do want to help each other, maybe not.
Right now I want to help myself - to a cup a coffee.

Quote:
I was pretty happy with my education. Perfection? Can anything be perfect?
My neighbour is a perfect asshole... The guitar on "far above the clouds" is perfect... Seriously, when at school, didn't you want a freer way of pursuing the interesting things, and leaving out the stupid ones? Didn't you spend time on idiotic subjects? Couldn't you possibly design a different and better educational system?

Quote:
But everyone starts somewhere. People don't pop out of the womb and become company executives 40 years later automatically. Hard work plays some part in it. Granted, it is easier for some than others (an inequality impossible to eliminate) but there are countless tales of inspiring corporate ladder-climbing from the lowliest of positions.
This is a very common and wrong argument - I think. I also think it's the faulty basis of "the american dream". The crusial point is that not everybody can succede thusly, only anybody - at best. In this system of ladder-climbing, the vast, vast majority of people will not succede, even if they try their very best. You can pick out a random person and yes, he could possibly become CEO or president if he worked hard. But 250 million people simply can't, so it's not a very usefull property.

Quote:
I assume you're speaking of private companies since the public owns public companies. And companies that are not employee-owned and do not have a profit-sharing plan. Yes, out of that subset of companies, I suppose it is primarily a success for its owners. Should there not be advantages to owning a company?
I'll go further: Nobody should own a company. Not in the current sense. I'm opening a can of worm with that statement, so we should probably leave it at that.

Quote:
Quote:
The workers at bottom of the pyramid has no say in company decisions and yet they are the first to be sacrificed by them.
Wait a minute, what about unions?
Unions are good in the sense that they represent the workers in ways they couldn't possibly themselves. And they dichotomise and visualise the class struggle. But they also tend to uphold the status quo, and seemingly go against their basic purpose. This only further crowds the playing field, and big unions have become players themselves, not really representing the workers 100%. The problem with current unions (as with politicians in general) is that they don't takes things further, but are satisfied with a comfortable "everybody's equally bad off"-solution. Historically the unions are of course important in the raising on the quality of living, by introducing minimum wages and strikes. This was very important in Europe, but it didn't happen with the same force in the USA. The reason many big companies in the USA are against minimum wages is not because it creates unemployment (unemployment is a necessity for a working capitalistic system, so that should be right up their alley), but because it means that they can't treat people like slaves.

Well, maybe we should stop here, before somebody yells "the workers should control of the means of production!!!" - it won't be me, mind you.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, kudos to herodote for reminding us the lyrics of "Lady in Black" (for those not knowing the song already: Uriah Heep - the LP is Salsbury, I beilieve released in 1971).

For any of you wishing to see more ppl "on your side" I'll quote another piece of that song:
"There is no strength in numbers"
The fact that you find your ideas to be not-so-popular should not be considered as a sort of a "handicap". As a matter of fact, I really enjoy conversations (but not childish flames) with people having very different opinions to mine. This gives me the opportunity to make double reality checks and more often than not learn something new. And I find myself in that situation very often as my political views are rather "rare" - I'm an anarchist.

Now, regarding the actual question mxskweeb was asking: how come linux users tend to be more on the left than the general populace (although to a lesser extent than what I think he expected). I think that the major reason here is that people of the left tend to join more easily proactive initiatives - open source is such a "wave". So, while the GPL is not a "commie thing," it is more probable that a left person will find it appealing than a conservative one.
But I have another interesting question for you. What is the trend _within_ linux distros? An obvious factor in this consideration would be the "advocacy coefficient" of each distro, depending on strict or loose adherence to the Open Source and the GPL, openess of the platform, patched packets or not etc... As you have guessed, debian would most probably be at the top of that list. On the other hand, conservative people may consider those high-scoring distros as "too aggressive". But are there really relatively more left debian users than in other distros? Political opinions cannot be major decision factors for choosing a distro. Technical skills and knowledge, experience etc. are way more important on that choice. Now, given that many left ppl come over to linux in a manner of practically joining a bandwagon we must consider that a total n00b (yes the kind that doesn't know a kernel from a shell and calls dirs "folders") is more probably a left person than a conservative (more probably attracted by the strict technical merits - merits you need some understanding to evaluate). So the newbie - friendly distros will probably get more ppl interested in the political aspects of open source than the technical ones. It would be nice to see such a poll...
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Herodot wrote:
What else would you like?
A good number of academians in the US seem to think most degrees require alot of other stuff. History is the first that comes to mind.
Quote:
education is basicly about getting a good an large understanding of things, so you can make the right decisions towards whatever goal you have.
Poetry, some colors a one-eared lunatic threw on a canvas and some musical notes an insane person strung together, should not be required education to get a degree in economics, genetic engineering or any number of other degrees. Noone has been able to convince me why those aspects of an education should be required.
Quote:
Why would you loathe such people?
If that was all they learned, I be frightened of them.
Quote:
We're probably disagreeing on mere words here!
This could be the key part.
__________________________________
carlivar wrote:
I have a simple theory on why academics and students tend to be on the left.
Completely agree.
__________________________________
rac wrote:
on average ... people rebel against their parents' political beliefs, and so generational political views tend to oscillate with a 30-year period
Interesting. Was there any indication/do you recall if there was a guesstimate of percentages rebeled? I wonder if children of a farming family would rebel as much as children from an urban family.
__________________________________
Herodot wrote:
I'm not sure sure - is there a difference between "help" and "charity"? If you help a blind man across the street, is that then help or charity?
If the blind man continually needs help to cross the street, then I would not call it help (Give a man a fish/teach a man to fish).
Quote:
The thing that is currently very wrong is that we don't have time to be nice to each other (the aforementioned 40 hours work week)
I fail to see how working any number of hours is a cause for someone to be not nice.
Quote:
The workers at bottom of the pyramid has no say in company decisions and yet they are the first to be sacrificed by them.
Oftentimes middle-management are the first to go. Along with underlings whose efforts are duplications/excess.
__________________________________
wrote:
there are countless tales of inspiring corporate ladder-climbing from the lowliest of positions.

I forget the name, but a recent CEO of Coca-Cola was a Cuban immigrant who came to the U.S. with nothing, zilch, zero, nada.
__________________________________
KiTaSuMbA wrote:
So, while the GPL is not a "commie thing," it is more probable that a left person will find it appealing than a conservative one.
I prefer "linux" over alternatives because I believe it is a better product. I don't care about the license. If a commercial version of BSD gained as much popularity (including # of applications) and was as "easy" as MS Windows, I'd drop linux in nano-seconds. In the meantime, linux is the better option for me.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Seriously, when at school, didn't you want a freer way of pursuing the interesting things, and leaving out the stupid ones? Didn't you spend time on idiotic subjects? Couldn't you possibly design a different and better educational system?

Sure, I said I was "pretty happy" but there's room for improvement. Would it really be an education though if it was only things you're interested in? I'm not very interested in trigonometry and I have never used it since, but in hindsight I don't mind having to take it.

Quote:
This is a very common and wrong argument - I think. I also think it's the faulty basis of "the american dream". The crusial point is that not everybody can succede thusly, only anybody - at best.

Well this is definitely the basic point at which we differ. I think a system where anybody can succeed is pretty damn good. I think it is a bad thing if a system is designed for everyone to succeed because it's impossible! It also depends on what you define as succeeding. Sometimes I think it is a minor miracle if some people can hold a steady job - that, to me, is succeeding in their case.

Quote:
In this system of ladder-climbing, the vast, vast majority of people will not succede, even if they try their very best.

Yep, and sometimes this is simply because some people are not as intelligent as others. This is a fact which everyone likes to pretend is not the case.

Quote:
I'll go further: Nobody should own a company. Not in the current sense. I'm opening a can of worm with that statement, so we should probably leave it at that.

Yeah that's quite a bombshell! Obviously I completely disagree.

Quote:
The reason many big companies in the USA are against minimum wages is not because it creates unemployment (unemployment is a necessity for a working capitalistic system, so that should be right up their alley), but because it means that they can't treat people like slaves.

The existence of unemployment is a necessity, but this is over-simplified. Minimalizing unemployment is still a good thing.

My argument to the whole "corporate slavedriver" thing is this: there are always alternatives. People always have a choice. I really don't think there are many situations where finding a new job with a company that treats its employees better is completely out of the question. If the company was truly so bad, nobody but fools would work for them (and the company would have a hard time succeeding with fools as employees).

Ever read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand?

Carl
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I prefer "linux" over alternatives because I believe it is a better product. I don't care about the license.

Couldn't agree more. The recent surge of popularity of Apple with open-source enthusiasts being a perfect example.

Carl
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
rac wrote:
on average ... people rebel against their parents' political beliefs, and so generational political views tend to oscillate with a 30-year period
Interesting. Was there any indication/do you recall if there was a guesstimate of percentages rebeled? I wonder if children of a farming family would rebel as much as children from an urban family.

It's been several years since I read the book, and a quick glance finds this cite:
chapter 2, footnote 20 wrote:
For a discussion of Ortega's periodicity, see Julian Marias, Generations: A Historical Method (University, Ala., 1967), ch 3; cf. also Manheim, Essays, 277; and A. B. Spitzer, "The Historical Problem of Generations," American Historical Review, December 1973.

Quote:
I forget the name, but a recent CEO of Coca-Cola was a Cuban immigrant who came to the U.S. with nothing, zilch, zero, nada.

Roberto Goizueta. Very charismatic dude. I met him in Denver at a symposium in the 1980s. I believe he died about 5 years ago.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
First of all, kudos to herodote for reminding us the lyrics of "Lady in Black" (for those not knowing the song already: Uriah Heep - the LP is Salsbury, I beilieve released in 1971).
Huh? I did?

Quote:
And I find myself in that situation very often as my political views are rather "rare" - I'm an anarchist.
They're not so rare I think - or maybe they're just very few and very loud. I must say that I find anarchism an overly simplistic view, and that most often I find the proclaimed anarchists are simply people with little insight. No offense, that's just what I've learned of most anarchists until now.

Quote:
So, while the GPL is not a "commie thing,"
Actually, I think that's exactly what it is! The end user has complete control and insight over the entire process, the means of production is completely distributed to the workers, the personal hierarchy i extremely flat. The driving force is the needs of the users, not commercial or finansial. I foresee that within a couple of years Linux will be very big, and the entire software industri changed forever. I hope this will reflect on other things.

Quote:
A good number of academians in the US seem to think most degrees require alot of other stuff. History is the first that comes to mind.
History is within science - I don't know exactly how American universities are organised.

Quote:
Poetry, some colors a one-eared lunatic threw on a canvas and some musical notes an insane person strung together, should not be required education to get a degree in economics, genetic engineering or any number of other degrees. Noone has been able to convince me why those aspects of an education should be required.
You don't see beauty in art? You don't see the connection between art and science?

Quote:
Quote:
We're probably disagreeing on mere words here!
This could be the key part.
I shall endeavour to elucidate!

Quote:
Well this is definitely the basic point at which we differ. I think a system where anybody can succeed is pretty damn good. I think it is a bad thing if a system is designed for everyone to succeed because it's impossible!
The point I'm trying to make is that this system is fine for those precious few, but not for everybody else, and therefore not as a whole. I can't imagine why you wouldn't want everybody to succeed???

Quote:
It also depends on what you define as succeeding. Sometimes I think it is a minor miracle if some people can hold a steady job - that, to me, is succeeding in their case.
Very true. The ruling class has succeded in fooling most people into believing that working 40 hours a week with something you don't own, is succeding. This is a positive feed back loop that strenghtens the system. If we were to try and give a more objective definition of "success" (or "happines"), we would (after an loooong debate) come up with something very incompatible with todays structure in society and workplace.

Quote:
Yep, and sometimes this is simply because some people are not as intelligent as others. This is a fact which everyone likes to pretend is not the case.
Wouldn't it be nice if your standard of living, the quality of your life wasn't wholly dependent on whether or not you could outsmart your neighbour? Wouldn't it be nice if everybody has good lives, bright or dim? We're not chimps fighting for the last banana you know!

Quote:
My argument to the whole "corporate slavedriver" thing is this: there are always alternatives. People always have a choice. I really don't think there are many situations where finding a new job with a company that treats its employees better is completely out of the question. If the company was truly so bad, nobody but fools would work for them (and the company would have a hard time succeeding with fools as employees).
I disagree completely. To assume that everybody can just go find work somewhere else whenever they feel like it is almost disrespectfull. There are many, many people in this world who have no choice but to slave away.

(no more posting from me for the nonce, it's almost time to get up... uh-oh...)
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Pigeon
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Herodot wrote:
We're not chimps fighting for the last banana you know!

.....actually....



I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. :cry:
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carlivar
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I can't imagine why you wouldn't want everybody to succeed???

Well sure, despite the fact that I think it's impossible I want it. Uhh....

Quote:
Very true. The ruling class has succeded in fooling most people into believing that working 40 hours a week with something you don't own, is succeding.

Who is the ruling class? What about people that own their own small business or are self-employed? Or let's use myself as an example - I work for a corporation that treats me well and I enjoy what I do. That isn't succeeding? Am I fooled?

Quote:

This is a positive feed back loop that strenghtens the system. If we were to try and give a more objective definition of "success" (or "happines"), we would (after an loooong debate) come up with something very incompatible with todays structure in society and workplace.

Let's skip the debate. Just tell us what you think success is.

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Quote:
Yep, and sometimes this is simply because some people are not as intelligent as others. This is a fact which everyone likes to pretend is not the case.
Wouldn't it be nice if your standard of living, the quality of your life wasn't wholly dependent on whether or not you could outsmart your neighbour? Wouldn't it be nice if everybody has good lives, bright or dim? We're not chimps fighting for the last banana you know!

We're not fighting for the last banana, but we are chimps - just very, very smart ones.

What is a good life? Well, definitely not starving to death, certainly. But then what? Being healthy? Owning a house? Raising a family in safety? Owning a sportscar? Sitting in the jacuzzi? Where do you draw the line? How can one even define a "good life"?

Quote:
I disagree completely. To assume that everybody can just go find work somewhere else whenever they feel like it is almost disrespectfull. There are many, many people in this world who have no choice but to slave away.

I'm curious - what country do you think is best? In what country are the people best off?

Carl
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Pigeon
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

carlivar wrote:
How can one even define a "good life"?

One has to do that for oneself.


My definition? To wake up every morning with a smile on your face.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mxskweeb wrote:
carlivar wrote:
TR is indeed the man! Definitely my 20th-century favorite. Who's your #1? Actually TR is tied with Thomas Jefferson overall for me.


Yeah, definitely Thomas Jefferson for overall. TR was my number one for the 20th century for a long time, but I decided personally my life has been more significantly affected by the fall of the Soviet Union, the reviving of the US military, and the revival of the US economy after the 70's. :D


I'd have to go with Lincoln for #1... The top prez in *my* lifetime would have to be Reagan. I mean, how can you top ending a 40 year war without firing a shot? :) And which revival of the US military do you mean? Reagan's during the cold war or Bush's after the systematic decimation of the ranks by the Socialist-in-Democrat's clothing? (Sorry to any socialists out there... To me, Clinton represented the absolute worst aspects of socialism - Socialized medicine, which has been proven not to work well, and the idea that the government knows what I need better than I do.)

Me
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been interested in how my own political views have drifted slightly in college, though not as much as you'd think. I have indeed moved more to the left, but I'm certainly still very libertarian. That quiz places me directly between liberal and conservative and towards libertarian. I think the reason I've become more liberal is mostly the result of my becoming more informed about several issues, and a solidification of my moral beliefs. I've come to care more about environmental issues the more I've learned about overpopulation's effects, and I've become much more solidly against war and the death penalty. But I'm still pretty much an anti-authoritarian in all respects. I'm sometimes frustrated w/ politics because I feel there is no viable candidate who even comes close to representing my views: both the Dems and the Republicans are pretty far from my ideology. I've usually tended to vote for a mixture of Republicans and "protest candidates". I think I'm reasonably liberal (more centrist actually), but most of the Democrat's policies severely repulse me with a few exceptions. I agree that there is functionally little difference between the major parties.

I found the thing rac mentioned about rebelling against parental ideology interesting too. My parents are diametrically opposed: my father is very liberal/libertarian, and my mother is very authoritarian/conservative. I guess I turned out as something of a blend, though I'm becoming more opposed to my mother's position thanks to recent actions of the US government (and watching her approval of said "counter-terrorist" actions).
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
(Sorry to any socialists out there... To me, Clinton represented the absolute worst aspects of socialism - Socialized medicine, which has been proven not to work well, and the idea that the government knows what I need better than I do.)


Remember that Bill's most socialist plans were driven by Hillary. Be very very afraid in about 2008.

Carl
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 9:15 am    Post subject: mostly liberal. Reply with quote

liberal

i think that everything needs to be in a little bit of a commotion to evolve. our society will not evolve if nothing changes.

every society on the planet has flaws, and through change everything comes together more and starts to work much more efficiently.

yes, thier are a lot of hiccups along the way, and a lot of disasters, but that is evolution.
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carlivar
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 6:45 pm    Post subject: Re: mostly liberal. Reply with quote

syadnom wrote:

every society on the planet has flaws, and through change everything comes together more and starts to work much more efficiently.

You're right! Nazi Germany was quite a change, and things worked more efficiently too...

Carl
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pizen
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mooman wrote:
I'm a card-carrying, tree-hugging, sierra-clubbing, recycling, vegetarian, pro-gay, pro-environment, anti-corporation, anti-prayer-in-schools, anti-censorship, pro-PeTA, Proctor&Gamble-boycotting, flaming liberal.

So you, too? Except I'm not a vegetarian. I took the "World's Smallest Political Quiz" that was posted and it told me that I'm "left liberal"...but I already knew that. My ACLU membership card is the pride of my wallet.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

henke wrote:
Proven? Thats a pretty strong statment. Do you have proof?

(No, that socialized medicine hasn't worked in the US yet is not proof.)
You are correct. Not working in the US fails the test of proof. However, it has not worked anywhere on Earth yet. That gets much closer to being proof. Of course, with Billy Bob, we now have to ask what the definition of "work" is.
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